Seacrest underwater harvest protection

General banter about diving and why we love it.
User avatar
Cmjstealth
Avid Diver
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:02 pm

Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Cmjstealth »

Starting this new thread to hopefully separate the discussion around getting legal protection for the Seacrest dive sites. This is NOT the thread for reiterating our love of GPOs or for voicing outrage over Dylan Mayer’s actions on Wednesday (please use http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19454).

It seems to me that the best option proposed so far is something close to a “underwater no-take zone” that:
  • -Protects the coves
    -Will not create pushback from non-diving fisherman groups that fish from the pier (is this a real concern?)
    -Won’t alienate club members who like to fish elsewhere in the Puget sound
    -Won’t incite the resistance of the entire fishing industry
    -Easier to implement than a marine reserve (although not sure if this was referring to legal stuff or just because of pushback from above-water fishing folks)
    -If there is interest in creating more broad protection I might personally support it but would love to get get Seacrest protected first. Hate to have nothing because we either couldn’t agree or went to big. Baby steps...
I think the above is the closest we have to a consensus of the group but if I’m off base let me know. I’m more than happy to help with some of the legwork if others can identify where to start.

Laywer: Really appreciate your offer to provide Pro-Bono legal support. Can you recommend where we should start / what to explore?

I assume there are a lot of specifics TBD including:
  • -Would this need to be a new ordinance or does a similar form of protection already exist?
    -Would it make more sense to seek a different form of protection that can be more easily adopted (ie: no legislation required - just a designation by an existing regulatory group)
    -How is/should the scope of the protected area defined?
    -Who do we need to engage? Is there other legwork that needs to be completed first?
PMing Kitsapdiver, Grateful Diver, CaptnJack, Sea Goat, fnerg, Joshua Smith, Desert Diver who I noticed as all either supporting the underwater no-take approach or perhaps knew what to do next.
User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10242
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Joshua Smith »

Thank you for doing this! We had just decided to start a new thread. And I'm at work using my phone to stay current, and a bit pressed for time. I really appreciate you taking the initiative to start this new thread and keep the discussion focused on a positive outcome!
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
User avatar
Krake
Getting To Know Folks
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:36 am

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Krake »

The new thread is great! the no-take approach would also be supported by many of us up north. Please let me know how we can help
User avatar
lundysd
Extreme Diving Machine
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:28 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by lundysd »

Before anyone gets too deep into these efforts, I want to make it clear that there is a VERY big coordinated effort going on internally right now to make this happen. Lots of people are working hard to present a clear and concise plan, and I'm confident we can get results very soon. We should be able to present this plan in the very near future, but until then hang tight. If you're interested in participating further please contact me at rotdphoto@gmail.com and I will keep you up to date
User avatar
Emilyrc
Dive-aholic
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Emilyrc »

I'm on board with a no-take for scuba. Fisherman take what they want... From the surface.

I wish I knew how to help with this stuff. As a "northerner" (Skagit Valley) I don't think there's a whole lot I can do other than show up at any future events. If there is something I can help with from up here, please don't hesitate to ask. I have a very flexible work schedule.

Lets also try to keep this a NHZ, if that's okay with CMJstealth
User avatar
ljjames
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2725
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:46 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by ljjames »

lundysd wrote:Before anyone gets too deep into these efforts, I want to make it clear that there is a VERY big coordinated effort going on internally right now to make this happen. Lots of people are working hard to present a clear and concise plan, and I'm confident we can get results very soon. We should be able to present this plan in the very near future, but until then hang tight. If you're interested in participating further please contact me at rotdphoto@gmail.com and I will keep you up to date
Outstanding! You have my full support! Thank you (and all involved) for taking the lead in this.
----
"I survived the Brittandrea Dorikulla, where's my T-shirt!"
User avatar
ktb
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1541
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:23 am

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by ktb »

lundysd wrote:Before anyone gets too deep into these efforts, I want to make it clear that there is a VERY big coordinated effort going on internally right now to make this happen. Lots of people are working hard to present a clear and concise plan, and I'm confident we can get results very soon. We should be able to present this plan in the very near future, but until then hang tight. If you're interested in participating further please contact me at rotdphoto@gmail.com and I will keep you up to date
Thank you Scott. You already know you have my support.

I was THRILLED to see this:
http://seattletimes.com/html/fieldnotes ... cation=rss

Quotes from above article:
Outrage over the incident has sparked the department to look into whether fishing regulations that allow hunting octopus to be changed. "This incident has compelled us to look into this, to see if this practice should be allowed," Bartlett said. (previously named as Craig Bartlett, spokesman for the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife) "There are a lot of ethical issues involved with fishing and hunting. It isn't just a biological decision we make here. It's also about what society will tolerate."

Another quote:
Bob Davidson, president and CEO of the Seattle Aquarium said the aquarium, which was active in helping to protect the state's existing marine protected areas, and is going to advocate for protection for Cove 2.

"All indications are that it would be a very suitable addition, and we are going to start putting together the argument right now," Davidson said. "The variety of marine life, the value it has for various communities ... it is important to take a step like this."
Kelly
User avatar
Norris
NWDC Moderator
NWDC Moderator
Posts: 4688
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Norris »

ktb wrote:
lundysd wrote:Before anyone gets too deep into these efforts, I want to make it clear that there is a VERY big coordinated effort going on internally right now to make this happen. Lots of people are working hard to present a clear and concise plan, and I'm confident we can get results very soon. We should be able to present this plan in the very near future, but until then hang tight. If you're interested in participating further please contact me at rotdphoto@gmail.com and I will keep you up to date
Thank you Scott. You already know you have my support.

I was THRILLED to see this:
http://seattletimes.com/html/fieldnotes ... cation=rss

Quotes from above article:
Outrage over the incident has sparked the department to look into whether fishing regulations that allow hunting octopus to be changed. "This incident has compelled us to look into this, to see if this practice should be allowed," Bartlett said. (previously named as Craig Bartlett, spokesman for the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife) "There are a lot of ethical issues involved with fishing and hunting. It isn't just a biological decision we make here. It's also about what society will tolerate."

Another quote:
Bob Davidson, president and CEO of the Seattle Aquarium said the aquarium, which was active in helping to protect the state's existing marine protected areas, and is going to advocate for protection for Cove 2.

"All indications are that it would be a very suitable addition, and we are going to start putting together the argument right now," Davidson said. "The variety of marine life, the value it has for various communities ... it is important to take a step like this."
This is awesome! Maybe cut Octo hunting while watching eggs, limit to less than 1 a day (imagining if 100 divers caught their limit each day for 1 month shudder) and have Cove 1 2 and 3 be sanctuaries.
**Pinch it, don't stick your finger through. You're just pinching a bigger hole.
CAPTNJACK - 2012**
User avatar
pensacoladiver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1350
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:00 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by pensacoladiver »

Norris wrote:
This is awesome! Maybe cut Octo hunting while watching eggs, limit to less than 1 a day (imagining if 100 divers caught their limit each day for 1 month shudder) and have Cove 1 2 and 3 be sanctuaries.
Do the GPO spawn throughout the year or only during a certain time? It would be impossible to enforce a law stating an octo cant be taken while on eggs. However, if they spawn during a certain time, then closure might be a "reasonable" option.

Here in Florida, we are allowed to take NO lobster that is bearing eggs, but that is enforcable as the eggs are attached to the lobsters and FWC can sure as hell tell if some dipshit has scrapped them off. It happens more often that I like to hear about.

Rick, assuming your fears were to be realized, you would be talking about 3,000 octos taken in a one month period. If that were possible at SCUBA depths, I would say you have a VERY healthy octopus population there.

I know of no species of fish (that I care to eat) that I could get one of diving every day for 30 days straight.
User avatar
Mortuus
Amphibian
Posts: 859
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:57 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Mortuus »

Full support here, although unfortunately it will have to be in words only, since I know nothing of law and will be all but useless in this effort =P
User avatar
mcloed121
Aquanaut
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 7:41 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by mcloed121 »

I want to help in anyway I can too just let me know thanks
Anthony
User avatar
Linedog
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1268
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:53 am

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Linedog »

Start with Cove's 1, 2 and 3, then move on to Redondo, Les Davis etc. Once you have your foot in the door . . . .
Pop tarts and gravy,
It's what's for breakfast.
socaldiver
Hi, I'm New To NWDC!
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:21 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by socaldiver »

far from me to say our laws are perfect, but consider the laws of california for the take of lobster/abalone.....only certain months, maximum posession, and maximum take per year.....also possibly consider tagging each animal taken with a tag to ensure enforcement....
otherwise, it's up to darwin...
m
ScubaSamHam
Hi, I'm New To NWDC!
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:57 am

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by ScubaSamHam »

pensacoladiver wrote:
Do the GPO spawn throughout the year or only during a certain time? It would be impossible to enforce a law stating an octo cant be taken while on eggs. However, if they spawn during a certain time, then closure might be a "reasonable" option.
"Giant Pacific octopuses breed throughout the year, though spawning peaks in winter. Males may breed with several females, but females mate only once in their lifetime. Over several days, females lay 20,000 to 100,000 rice-shaped eggs (avg. 50,000) in grape-like clusters of 200 to 300 eggs each. These clusters are hung from the ceiling of the den. Females remain with the eggs throughout the entire brooding period, guarding them from predators and using her syphon to aerate and clean the clusters. Hatching can take anywhere from 150 days to almost 1 year depending on water temperature. Cooler temperatures delay the development of the embryo and therefore lengthen incubation time. (Anderson, et al., 2002; High, 1976; Kubodera, 1991; "North Pacific giant octopus (Enteroctopus dofleini)", 2010)"

So, while there is a peak spawning (mating) season per se, the egg-bearing stage is not seasonal, and could last a whole year (so, octopus mamas anywhere could be on eggs anytime)... therefore, unless its possible to tell if a female has layed eggs in the past by simple visual cues, or if the females show signs of recent egg bearing (doubtful, hard to confirm once captured), then NO. seasonal spawning closures would not work.

I think the solution, as many have pointed out, is to get no underwater take of octos. There is existing policy for this sort of fishing restriction (only on snorkel, and far from the coast) in Bermuda. Although this is the reverse - everything except scuba allowed - it is possible and may offer clues.

THANK YOU for closing the previous thread. and THANK YOU for continuing your concerted efforts. I will contact you, Lundy, to offer my assistance.
User avatar
pensacoladiver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1350
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:00 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by pensacoladiver »

It has been 2 years since I have reviewed Washington fishing regs, but I seem to recall there being no such verbiage about "no underwater take zones" or anything of the like. Not saying it woud be impossible to get it created, but I think it would certainly be easier to develop something within the existing laws.

We do have something similar here in Florida... the Blue Heron Bridge. you can dive it all you want but can't hunt, but there are fisherman all over it.

Not sure if it was ever designated an underwater sanctuary, but there is a lew here in florida that prevents hunting within 300 feet of a fishing pier.

I think it's 300 feet, might be 100 feet... I can't remember and I dont hunt from shore anyways.

Just food for thought.
User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10242
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Joshua Smith »

pensacoladiver wrote:It has been 2 years since I have reviewed Washington fishing regs, but I seem to recall there being no such verbiage about "no underwater take zones" or anything of the like. Not saying it woud be impossible to get it created, but I think it would certainly be easier to develop something within the existing laws.

We do have something similar here in Florida... the Blue Heron Bridge. you can dive it all you want but can't hunt, but there are fisherman all over it.

Not sure if it was ever designated an underwater sanctuary, but there is a lew here in florida that prevents hunting within 300 feet of a fishing pier.

I think it's 300 feet, might be 100 feet... I can't remember and I dont hunt from shore anyways.

Just food for thought.
We appear to have several no take zones, such as Edmonds Underwater Park and Hood Canal. Sounds as if this one wont be hard to get done, since the aquarium got on board.
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
User avatar
Norris
NWDC Moderator
NWDC Moderator
Posts: 4688
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Norris »

pensacoladiver wrote:
Norris wrote:
This is awesome! Maybe cut Octo hunting while watching eggs, limit to less than 1 a day (imagining if 100 divers caught their limit each day for 1 month shudder) and have Cove 1 2 and 3 be sanctuaries.
Do the GPO spawn throughout the year or only during a certain time? It would be impossible to enforce a law stating an octo cant be taken while on eggs. However, if they spawn during a certain time, then closure might be a "reasonable" option.

Here in Florida, we are allowed to take NO lobster that is bearing eggs, but that is enforcable as the eggs are attached to the lobsters and FWC can sure as hell tell if some dipshit has scrapped them off. It happens more often that I like to hear about.

Rick, assuming your fears were to be realized, you would be talking about 3,000 octos taken in a one month period. If that were possible at SCUBA depths, I would say you have a VERY healthy octopus population there.

I know of no species of fish (that I care to eat) that I could get one of diving every day for 30 days straight.
Mind you I am not a hunter nor do I have anything against responsible hunting. I was tossing ideas out from a fleeting thought. You are most likely right about enforcement of the mother octopus hunting and I am no way trying to debate. For what it's worth I believe that the coves could be added to the no take zone and I would endorse it. I would not endorse making it illegal to hunt Octos which are not endangered or reaching instinction.
**Pinch it, don't stick your finger through. You're just pinching a bigger hole.
CAPTNJACK - 2012**
User avatar
LCF
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by LCF »

I think one of the first questions to answer is what regulatory body has the power to do this. If we can get it done through the City of Seattle as a part of the SeaCrest Park regulations, that's probably pretty easy. If it requires action through the state Fish and Game agency, that's probably quite a bit more complex and difficult. Does anybody know? Edmonds Underwater Park is a no-take zone -- whose regulations created that?
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
User avatar
pensacoladiver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1350
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:00 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by pensacoladiver »

Can you fish at Edmonds? Can a boat drop anchor in there and fish?
User avatar
LCF
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by LCF »

Boats are forbidden within the Edmonds Underwater Park. (That's the regulation about "watercraft" that has been interpreted as forbidding scooters, too . . . )
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Grateful Diver »

pensacoladiver wrote:Can you fish at Edmonds? Can a boat drop anchor in there and fish?
All watercraft are forbidden inside the park ... including divers on scooters.

But let's not cloud the issue ... that is a City ordinance, and not something dictated by the state.

As a Marine Preserve, fishing of all types is forbidden.

I did once see a boat tied up to one of the boundary buoys, with fishermen casting into the park. They know there are large and plentiful ling cod in there ... but they also better hope the fish & game folks don't see 'em doing it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
seainggreen
Dive-aholic
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:00 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by seainggreen »

As I said on the other threads, I am happy to help out in whatever manner I can, from fundraising, to donating footage, to volunteering my writing services, to whatever. Please let me know how I can help.

So glad to see that an organized effort is underway. This is the only way to effect positive, sustainable changes that we need to protect our favorite diving sites and animals. The power of a well-organized passionate group always wins out over an individual effort. Many hands will make this important work easier. Thanks, Scott.

Laurynn
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln, 1809 - 1865
Seainggreen Productions, LLC
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by CaptnJack »

Washington absolutely has Marine Protected Areas (MPAs) sometimes for all species, sometimes for selected species, and sometimes just limiting gear types. So a "no harvesting GPOs by scuba or snorkeling/free diving" in some defined area has plenty of precedent. As would "no harvest of GPOs statewide", 6 gill and wolf eels are examples of statewide closed fisheries.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
nwscubamom
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2315
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:13 am

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by nwscubamom »

It's up! The petition to provide protection for the Giant Pacific Octopus at Seattle's Alki Cove 2 dive site is now posted on the Dive News Network's website. Take a moment to read the petition and sign if you are interested, and be sure to include your comments.
http://www.divenewsnetwork.com/index.ph ... ve-the-gpo

Also spread the word with your friends, dive clubs, shops, other dive forums, etc.: Divers and non-divers alike!

Thanks go to the many (especially Scott Lundy and the folks at Dive News Network) who have worked fast and hard to get this petition up and running. :joshsmith:

- Janna
Janna Nichols
My underwater photo galleries
REEF Citizen Science Program Manager
Seen any cool critters lately?
><((((°>
-----------------------------
User avatar
Mortuus
Amphibian
Posts: 859
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:57 pm

Re: Seacrest underwater harvest protection

Post by Mortuus »

nwscubamom wrote:It's up! The petition to provide protection for the Giant Pacific Octopus at Seattle's Alki Cove 2 dive site is now posted on the Dive News Network's website. Take a moment to read the petition and sign if you are interested, and be sure to include your comments.
http://www.divenewsnetwork.com/index.ph ... ve-the-gpo

Also spread the word with your friends, dive clubs, shops, other dive forums, etc.: Divers and non-divers alike!

Thanks go to the many (especially Scott Lundy and the folks at Dive News Network) who have worked fast and hard to get this petition up and running. :joshsmith:

- Janna
Cool! Signed!
Post Reply