Missing Diver in Tacoma (Nov 2006)

General banter about diving and why we love it.
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diver-dad
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Post by diver-dad »

Cera wrote: ... I know we are kind-of getting off track with this thread ...
Maybe so, but this is the best banter and discussion I have read on any scuba site ... let it run where it wants to go. :smt024
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Post by Sounder »

I agree that everyone should keep to the subject but should be able to discuss what they want to. This is the best club in the Sound, and this discussion of the incident is a perfect example of that. How tragic; how stupid this incident was. Regardless, it happened, and this club handles it better than any other club on the web.

I didn't learn anything from this incident that I didn't already know... what I have learned is how to handle this kind of discussion. This group has really helped me understand what is important and what isn't and why/when things should be said and reserved.

Bottom line, training is important and doing dives with the proper training and equipment is critical. This is the point of the discussion. Break that down and point out what when something wrong happens (i.e. in my own opinion, the instructor is an idiot), you should have a plan of how to handle it and get out. Other discussion should be around how this dive could have been done safely and how it could have been done correctly. There are guys and gals who go to 350fsw routinely without a problem... and nobody argues about their dive plan or would ever say it was a problem. It can be done. Just please do it correctly.

Just so people know, there are members of this board with thousands of logged dives who are JUST NOW dabbling in the realm of technical diving... thousands of dives before they elected to approach technical diving... chew on that for a while.
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Deep Diving Close Calls

Post by Kirby »

I have been diving with many of you who have posted on this thread, and many of you have had this conversation with me during my 2 year career as a diver. I was, and am a hard head. I sincerely appreciate those who cared enought to explain to me the liability and extreme danger assumed by taking a less experienced diver deep. I would be in that unfortunate mans shoes but for the grace of god. It is our responsibility to use this incident to educate other new divers to keep it from happening again.

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Post by Sergeant Pepper »

Being a good dive buddy is more than a pre-dive check. Over simplification and repetitive I know, but... be good dive buddies, be good dive buddies, be good dive buddies.
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Post by Curt McNamee »

lamont wrote:part of the problem here is also that its scuba diving and the dangers in scuba diving are nowhere near as obvious as rock climbing or snowboarding. we all intuitively understand gravity and momentum and even a novice can come to some kind of estimation about the relative difficulty in those sports. with scuba diving you can't feel the weight of the whole water column other than very subtle effects. its very easy for people to come into the sport and not have a good gauge of how difficult any given dive is and to rely heavily on their mentors to help them with risk assessment. that places newer divers (and 150 dives is still a newer diver) at the mercy of their instructors/mentors...
A very good point about this sport and it is very true!!!!!!
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Post by Rob Holman »

Food for thought, not that anyone needs this to understand an AL 80 is not the optimal choice for a bounce to 200 feet... but it is interesting

AL 80 = 80 Cubic feet
Typical working SAC rate of a newer diver is probably about .8 CF per min
200 feet = ~7 Atmospheres

Average depth for a 200 foot bounce dive would probably be about 100ish feet (4 ATA) and take about 10 min.

Without getting into rock bottom calcs, and assuming you will come out of the water with zero PSI at the end of the dive, an 80 will last you about 25 minutes at an average of 100 feet (80 CF/4 ATA/.8 SAC)=25min (I know no one plans on breathing the tank dry, just using this as a worst case scenario)

At 200 feet, a full 80 will last about 14 minutes with a SAC of .8.

But you will not get to 200 feet with a full 80. assuming it takes you 5 min to get to 200 feet, you will use about 16 CF to get to 200 feet (4ATA*.8SAC*5 min) = 16. This leaves you with 64 CF in the tank.

So now you are at 200 feet, with 64 CF. With a SAC of .8 you have 11 minutes before the tank is empty.

Introduce stress. It is not unusual under stress (or while dealing with a stressed buddy) to double your SAC rate. Let's say it does not double, but only bumps to a SAC of 1.5 CF per min. You now burn that 64 CF in 6 minutes. (64/1.5/7)=6

Since they were on the way up, I would bet he had less than 64 CF. Probably only 2-4 minutes to fix the problem and get to the surface. Once he encountered a problem with either himself or a fellow diver, it would appear as though he never had a chance.
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Post by Sounder »

Here is another plug for Grateful Diver's GAS MANAGEMENT & PLANNING classes. Whether you're a new diver or are about to do your 10,000th dive, you will take something away from this class - even if it is a total review for you and you walk away knowing you're completely up to date and practiced with your gas planning.

PLEASE go to one of his classes - the material should be covered in OW and AOW but it's not. ](*,) It's information everyone should have.
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lamont
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Post by lamont »

on a ~300 foot dive to the admiral sampson, divers will typically take two Al80 bottom stages which will last about 10 minutes each, for a total runtime of about 20 minutes. when they're done with the stages, they've still got full double-130s on their back...

at a SAC rate of 0.75:

.75 cu ft / min * 10 ata = 7.5 cu ft / min
260 cu ft / 7.5 cu ft / min = 34 mins

...and i think that's cutting it kinda close considering the depth and how long it'll take them just to get to their first gas switch at 190. if i ever hit the point where i'm doing dives like that i'll probably at least be on a pSCR rebreather to allow for more time for horrendous clusters on the bottom...

being at 200+ feet with only 10 minutes of gas left at depth is a bad plan.
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Post by peo »

Sounder wrote:Here is another plug for Grateful Diver's GAS MANAGEMENT & PLANNING classes. Whether you're a new diver or are about to do your 10,000th dive, you will take something away from this class - even if it is a total review for you and you walk away knowing you're completely up to date and practiced with your gas planning.

PLEASE go to one of his classes - the material should be covered in OW and AOW but it's not. ](*,) It's information everyone should have.
Or, do a DIR Fundamentals class. :-)
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Post by Grateful Diver »

peo wrote:
Sounder wrote:Here is another plug for Grateful Diver's GAS MANAGEMENT & PLANNING classes. Whether you're a new diver or are about to do your 10,000th dive, you will take something away from this class - even if it is a total review for you and you walk away knowing you're completely up to date and practiced with your gas planning.

PLEASE go to one of his classes - the material should be covered in OW and AOW but it's not. ](*,) It's information everyone should have.
Or, do a DIR Fundamentals class. :-)
That works too ... but the gas management seminar is free ... :la:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by Sounder »

I'm doing BOTH! There's always something to learn, and learning keeps me safe. AND, I'm not ready for Fundies yet... but will be soon. I'm also positive that I didn't take everything I could have away from GD's "gas class," so I'm going to attend another one. :book:
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Search for Chad

Post by Kirby »

Has anyone heard of any further efforts to be taken to recover his body? I dove there yesterday and vis was still terrible, especially deep, but is slowly improving. I know the searchers were using ROV's and sonar the day after the incident without success.

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Post by diver-dad »

Kirby wrote:Has anyone heard of any further efforts to be taken to recover his body? I dove there yesterday and vis was still terrible, especially deep, but is slowly improving. I know the searchers were using ROV's and sonar the day after the incident without success.
Found this update posted today (Thanksgiving) at http://www.northwestdiver.com/showthrea ... post193227
amylrohrbacher@hotmail.co;193227 wrote:I am the girlfriend of the missing diver in Tacoma off of Lobster Shop wall. The name of the diver missing was Chad Geoghegan. There were a total of 6 divers. 2 of those divers stayed at 60ft. The other 4 wanted to go down to 180ft. They overshot their destination, and landed at 189ft. Chad's buddy was narked up and then he started to get vertigo. Chad brought his buddy back up to 50ft. He than relized that there was still a diver down. He went back down to retrieve the other diver, who was at 211ft. Chad brought him up to 150ft. and that was the last time anyone saw him. They still have not found his body. Please keep your eyes out for him or any gear that might pop up. Chad was a wonderful man. He will be truely missed! It is still a big shock to me! Chad was one of the best divers I know. He saved two people on this dive (where was the dive master, Dave Graddon?) and one other person on another dive! He was a true hero, and he died doing what he loved!
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Post by DiverDown »

This was also on northwestdiver.com..
Last Thursday, 11-10-06 at around 8:30pm. 4 divers entered the water, Dave Graddon an instructor who used to work at light house dive center, (he was fired for stealing over $1500 worth of gear) and 3 of his prior students John, Steve and Chad. They all had advanced open water diver certs. Chad was definitely a strong diver and I personally have dove with him numerous times. John and Steve on the other hand should not have been out there neither of them dove often nor do they hold that skill level. The plan was to dive down to 200' in the middle of the night with less then 6' visibility on air with 1 tank. I have done this dive with Dave and Chad before in much better conditions and I tell you it is not for the faint hearted. You should not dive this site with out a technical diver certification or ample training with well versed diver. From what the Sherriff and John has told me and what I know of Chad and Dave I feel comfortable in saying this. "They reached their depth but on the way back John and Steve became distressed. From what I gather John came to the surface and Chad went back down to get Dave's partner steve and released his weight belt and held on to him until about 160'. Steve surfaced Chad did not. "

Police searched Friday but then stopped till Monday??? I guess because it was a holiday...
It’s unfortunate that Dave who calls himself a friend of mine did not call me. I have worked with Dave on several occasions and he knows I own a commercial diving company here in Tacoma. I could have been onsite in 30mins with 4-6 divers down within the hour. But I did not find out until late Sunday from his girlfriend who just flew in from Maryland. She had to find Chad’s phone first to call me.... I showed up Monday morning with some divers, well knowing that it was too late. Mainly getting in the water to give the family A little hope in finding the body. With as much current that goes thru there he could be in Olympia by now. Yet we dove anyways hoping for something, I thought maybe Dave would show up...
Not even the police got in the water, matter of fact we were the only ones to get in the water and that wasn't till Monday....Seems really odd to me how this was handled.

I always hear these stories from Dave about how his saved this guy who was down at 278'+++(number keeps changing). How His rescue class is the best in Washington. How other instructors don’t know what there doing...? I know he had another bottle why the hell didn't he go back down. I'm sure some one will post a comment about this but don’t say he was out side the NO-D limits or his computer wouldn't let him do it. I am a Commercial diver, and a Diver Medic with the IMCA & National board of Hyperbaric and Medical Technologies. I know about dive tables and decompression and so does Dave. In an emergency situation you help the person who is in the most trouble. The other divers had already surfaced.

I personally hold Dave responsible for the Death of my friend. Not because he didn't go back in after him as it might seem. But because he was the most experienced diver and the instructor of these 3 men. He should not have allowed this dive to take place in those conditions with the equipment they were using and the novice skill level of 2 of the divers.

There is a petition in place which is being signed by other instructors to have him removed
from NAUI as an instructor. I don’t think NAUI would want this man to represent their training. Amongst other things.

This may seem like a lash out at Dave, but what I really want people to know is the truth. I was not able to tell Chad in time about the lies Dave had told him about being fired from lighthouse. If Chad would have known the Dave was a liar and a thief he might not have gone on that dive with him. I blame myself but it changes nothing.

Chad was a great guy; he just joined the carpenters union. All he could talk about was how happy he was working for his brothers company and finally getting somewhere. It’s a shame to see such a loss. Chad loved diving and snowboarding. Every picture you would ever find of him he was holding a beer. Survived by his girlfriend Amy, friends and family.

I wrote this awhile ago thought I would paste it to this site.
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Post by diver-dad »

... The plan was to dive down to 200' in the middle of the night with less then 6' visibility on air with 1 tank. ...
That's not a "plan," that's insane.

The more I read about that tragedy, the worse I feel for the senselessness of it all.

A life lost with the future he had; other lives shattered; all for nothing.
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Post by John Rawlings »

"The plan was to dive down to 200' in the middle of the night with less then 6' visibility on air with 1 tank. I have done this dive with Dave and Chad before in much better conditions and I tell you it is not for the faint hearted."

Things are getting WAY out of hand when even those posting attacks on the instructor say that they have "done this dive" in the manner described and thump their chest about it!

"Not for the faint hearted"????? What utter and complete drivel!!!!!

This almost seems to be some sort of an initiation amongst a small group of divers down there.

I would question the sanity and intellect of anyone that has done this dive as described. Those that lead such dives are morons....those that follow on such dives are lemmings.

The more I hear about this dive the more it reeks.

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Post by runamonk »

This is a subject that's come up quite a bit lately with my group of friends who dive and none of us would have done this. We don't have the training or the appropriate gear [doubles] but also because if our instructors [Brian & Jeanna] would each take turns beating us until we couldn't walk hehe.

This was a very bad idea as far as dives or [for lack of a better word] plans go but they all made the choice to go so they are all in part responsible for what happened.

Their instructor will be made an example of and will probably never teach again I'm sure. We can all hope anyhow. What's really strange to me is if this instructor has been doing these kinds of dives with students for a while, you would think at least one student would have piped up at some point and said something to someone about it, word would have gotten around a little bit or something.
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Post by Pinkpadigal »

runamonk wrote:Their instructor will be made an example of and will probably never teach again I'm sure. We can all hope anyhow. What's really strange to me is if this instructor has been doing these kinds of dives with students for a while, you would think at least one student would have piped up at some point and said something to someone about it, word would have gotten around a little bit or something.
I have warned people about Dave. For years. No one would listen to me. Other instructors were hesitate though. They didn't want to say anything, with concern that it would sound like gossip. I just didn't care. I have witnessed what Dave had done with friends and even my husband.

3 years ago, when a diver died in the same spot, nothing was really said. They were divers from DIT and even though the instructor who led this dive had a reputation for doing the same kind of "bounce" dives, with students, nothing much was said. I am not sure why but the best I can figure is that they were training to be technical divers. Clubs like ours were not operating for discussion like they are now =D>

I jumped up and down and warned divers 3 years ago. No one would listen to me then either.

As bad as this accident is, some good has come out of it. 1. All of us, in all the chat rooms are talking about it. People are listening and realizing how dangerous it really is to go deep. 2. It is bringing attention to "rogue" instructors and is teaching divers to ask questions. 3. People are learning what the difference is between technical and recreational diving. People many not be listening to me, but to people like John Rawlings and GD Bob and hearing what they are saying.

While "bounce" dives may not stop, I hope we all have the courage to try to stop someone who is going to do one. It isn't very macho becoming fish food.
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Post by runamonk »

Well put. Instructors like Bob have called Naui to make sure they know about this guy. I'm sure if anyone else decides to do something like this they'll get reported too.

It's just sad, all just to say "Yeah I went to 200 feet" or what I would hear
"Hi I'm F-in Stupid".
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Post by Rob Holman »

At the risk of stirring the pot...

I don't think the issue was doing a bounce dive. Or even going deep. Both can be done safely. It was doing a deep dive w/o training, a sound dive plan, or proper equipment.

At least from my perspective.

(I should probably caveat the bounce dive comment by saying that it should be done with correct deep stops and any deco obligations that you incur, which would be very minimal if you just touch 200 and come back up-all of which you learn how to manage in a good tech class).
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Post by runamonk »

Sure it could be done, but it should be done safely with the proper experience and training. Someone with OW training only shouldn't be doing these types of dives and they should be taught to know better. #-o
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Post by Grateful Diver »

Rob Holman wrote:At the risk of stirring the pot...

I don't think the issue was doing a bounce dive. Or even going deep. Both can be done safely. It was doing a deep dive w/o training, a sound dive plan, or proper equipment.

At least from my perspective.

(I should probably caveat the bounce dive comment by saying that it should be done with correct deep stops and any deco obligations that you incur, which would be very minimal if you just touch 200 and come back up-all of which you learn how to manage in a good tech class).
I would agree with you were it not for the fact that 3 of the divers on this little misadventure had a total of 12 dives or less each. These divers were in no way qualified to undertake a dive like that, regardless of how much preparation, planning or equipment they had. They simply lacked the experience to understand how to prepare for such a dive.

The instructor, on the other hand, should have known. The more I learn about the circumstances of the dive, the more incredulous I become that someone with his careless attitude could've become an instructor in the first place ...

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Post by Rob Holman »

Don't think you fully read what I said.

"It was doing a deep dive w/o training, a sound dive plan, or proper equipment. "
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Post by Pinkpadigal »

Grateful Diver wrote:The instructor, on the other hand, should have known. The more I learn about the circumstances of the dive, the more incredulous I become that someone with his careless attitude could've become an instructor in the first place ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
This opens up a huge can of worms...
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Post by Sounder »

I agree with both Rob and GD here - the dive can be done. Personally, I don't know how to do it safely at my training level now. I would be like the other inexperienced divers who were on the dive. If someone wants to see what is at 200fsw, they should obtain the proper training, spaced out with plenty of experience, to ease their way into deeper and more complicated "technical" diving. Unfortunately, there are people checking c-cards at 60fsw, and weight sinks, so anyone can go to any depth they wish.

The dive can be done correctly with the proper training, but they didn't do it correctly, period.
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