Ling Cod slot limits - how's that working out for ya?

[spatman]

And how on earth are we supposed to practice? Maybe, just maybe, if ling was open all year round you could get good at estimating the size of fish not in the rocks but only spearing a few days a year?

i don't really have a dog in this fight, and this may not be a realistic suggestion, but how about some target practice? make a couple of dummy fish out of thin wood or foam that are within the legal range. practice shooting them at different angles and distances.

[Chevayea]

I watched 3 fish thrown back on opening day, all from very experienced divers and spearfishermen. One was 25" (one inch short of regulation size) and was instructed by the boat owner to be safe and throw it back. He did and then later shot a 30". I'm not seeing how that will help the population any, and he would have been quite content to keep the 25 incher. Another diver on the same boat hit one just under sized that he would have gladly kept but didn't due to the regs. And one diver hit one at 40". Now that is a sickening sight to see thrown back.

I strongly believe that size limits are not the answer for spearfishermen. Keep it to one ling a day with no size limit, that causes divers to think before they shoot and live with the ONE kill they make for the day. Most divers wont take very small ones, and large ones are harder to find and usually not in easily accessible dive sites. It was sad to see three wasted fish out of five divers in one day.

[Maverick]

And how on earth are we supposed to practice? Maybe, just maybe, if ling was open all year round you could get good at estimating the size of fish not in the rocks but only spearing a few days a year?

i don't really have a dog in this fight, and this may not be a realistic suggestion, but how about some target practice? make a couple of dummy fish out of thin wood or foam that are within the legal range. practice shooting them at different angles and distances.

It has nothing to do with hitting the fish Matt, It has to do with estimating the size underwater, under magnification, from ten feet or even five feet away.

[pensacoladiver]

Well, it seems to me, the answers to the original question are coming in.... not too well.

I agree, it is TERRIBLE to have to watch a 40 inch Ling thrown back into the water.

I think it is obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together, there are a whole lot more Ling being killed with this brainchild of a regulation than with last years "no size limit" and one per day.

At least the crabs in the area will eat healthy.

[spatman]

And how on earth are we supposed to practice? Maybe, just maybe, if ling was open all year round you could get good at estimating the size of fish not in the rocks but only spearing a few days a year?

i don't really have a dog in this fight, and this may not be a realistic suggestion, but how about some target practice? make a couple of dummy fish out of thin wood or foam that are within the legal range. practice shooting them at different angles and distances.

It has nothing to do with hitting the fish Matt, It has to do with estimating the size underwater, under magnification, from ten feet or even five feet away.

i know, dude. which is why i said the targets could be the legal size, to give you an idea of what they look like in the water.

[Seaslave]

Anyway, back to the real topic at hand. maybe we could all in favor of fixing the regulations go to several meeting that were spoken of and voice our concerns with the max. size limit. Seems that most agree that the Minimum size is not the issue, its the max. I know when a mob of NWDC member showed up to Muk's council meeting the ban to dive the lighthouse park was lifted. Maybe we can influence the WDFW the same way. Just an Idea, I will go if others go.

Where do we find the info on dates and times for these meetings? I would love to attend with a group and I have fairly large contingency of divers from up here who would attend. I have never been to a meeting like that but would love a chance to say my piece in front of a real person instead of useless emails that seem to be ignored....


-Mathue

[lamont]

So here's a question. How would you change it? Bear in mind three things that need to happen:

If those are the ground rules then nothing is really going to change. I'd seriously question the ground rules, though:

1. Protect young ling cod

Is there any evidence that young ling cod need protecting from spearfishers? As the responses have shown, you're only likely to have some fish that were 1/4" too small being thrown away. Spearfishers can see the fish that they're shooing, they're not going to bother with anything 12" long, so there's not a whole lot of point in having minimum size limits just because anglers have them.

2. Protect the female breeding population (they are the ones over 36")

This seems to be the real issue, and clearly based on this thread, the point to the community isn't getting across.

3. Provide equity in regulations with the angling community

That sounds like a requirement from a bureaucrat. Angling and spearfishing aren't the same thing and its useless to start out with the assumption that they need to be treated like they're the same thing.

[nwscubamom]

I should have said it at the beginning, but forgot - so I'll say it now. PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD A NO-HIJACK zone. There are several reasons for that - one of which is sometimes I point others to the thread to read to see the flow of experiences and ideas. And the other is just out of courtesy to the discussion. If I could get a moderator to help me clean up this thread, it would be appreciated.

You all know I don't spearfish, but I also don't like seeing you get the short end of the stick. Let me say that the Angling community is pretty well organized. Go visit Piscatorial pursuits or Bloodydecks forums and see how they all get VERY involved in representing their community. They write letters, attend meetings, and get involved on citizen advisory boards.

You have a very excellent opportunity to do so as spearfishers - and you need to do this BY FRIDAY. That is, to get representation of the spearing community on the Marine Area 4B Fish focus group. Yes folks, this is NEAH BAY we're talking about here. That whole area West of Sekiu out to Tatoosh. This is an EXCELLENT opportunity to have some clout and to be heard. It entails several meetings until August, to make recommendations about this area, before the process goes to public hearings in October.

When you write a letter - it's good. When you attend a meeting and speak your three minutes worth, that's good too. But I can guarantee you get a LOT more input and the opportunity for DISCUSSION and finding solutions with all sorts of 'user groups' when having a seat on these Citizen advisory groups.

So what to do?

Either nominate yourself, or nominate someone else you feel would be good for the focus group. Or let others know you want to be nominated and then help them with the information needed for the submission.

Details can be found here:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/do/newreal/release.php?id=may1110b

I have seen this posted all over the place on fishing boards and forums - so it's time to kick it in gear here.

I'll also post this notice in a separate thread just in case someone misses it here. You can do this, guys. It's time. There are many of you that would be excellent on this advisory group.

- Janna

[CaptnJack]

3. Provide equity in regulations with the angling community

That sounds like a requirement from a bureaucrat. Angling and spearfishing aren't the same thing and its useless to start out with the assumption that they need to be treated like they're the same thing.

Close, more like societal expectation. America HATES anything that looks like preferential treatment or rules even if circumstances etc really are different.

[Jaksonbrown]

Back to the original subject....

Once again,... after getting my ling last night....I was amazed at how far off I was on my guess at its actual length... I was sure I had a 32+ inch fish on the stringer..

and the actual measurement on the boat..... 28".. Things look so much larger under water....

I think one could get a pretty good idea on determining size underwater if it was a situation where you were actually doing alot of spearfishing for these fish. The problem is that we only have 2 weeks a year to do this. It is hard to develop any skill set with such a limited amount of time to learn.

[spatman]

I should have said it at the beginning, but forgot - so I'll say it now. PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD A NO-HIJACK zone. There are several reasons for that - one of which is sometimes I point others to the thread to read to see the flow of experiences and ideas. And the other is just out of courtesy to the discussion. If I could get a moderator to help me clean up this thread, it would be appreciated.

several posts have been removed from this thread per janna's request. if there are any questions or comments about the posts in question, please PM me or any of the other mods.

thanks.

[nwscubamom]

Another clarification:

Sport Fishing rules for Washington are reviewed on a 2 year cycle. We just started a new cycle for the 2010-2011 time period. However, if there are glaring problems, rules can be changed before the next two year review.

There is also a chance for A LOT OF input when you're appointed to a citizen advisory group - one of which I just posted earlier. This one is specific to Marine Area 4B, however, getting your foot in the door is a good thing and you may just be able to influence or get insight on how to go about changing the other areas, either in the near future or at least at the next cycle.

Now, one thing I didn't realize until I was on one of the advisory boards - THE PUBLIC CAN ATTEND AND PROVIDE INPUT. Advisory groups are small - like maybe 12 people, and we just met in a conference room up at WDFW in Mill Creek - but there were a handful of faithful attendees from the public who would sit and listen (for like HOURS AND HOURS) and then at the end, they were always given a chance to provide their input. It was much more informal than a Commission meeting. (ie, you weren't cut off at 3 minutes)

One time the fishing community was all up in arms about a particular rule that had been instituted without adequate public input, and they flooded one of our meetings with members of various angling clubs. They all patiently sat and waited until the end of the meeting - then they had a chance to give their input on this rule with the WDFW guys - and guess what? The rule was revoked (it had to do with fishing in area 4A) until it can be looked at closer. (if I remember right).

So, bottom line is - right now there are three ways to provide input on the spearfishing regulations:
1. Write a letter to:
Craig Burley: Craig.Burley@dfw.wa.gov
Greg Bargmann: bargmggb@dfw.wa.gov
Wayne Palsson: palsswap@dfw.wa.gov

BTW, whining about how it's not fair and saying it's a stupid rule won't get you anywhere. They get flak from SOME user group no matter what rules they institute. You'll get a lot further if you are courteous, and give (like I said in my original posting) SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of what has happened to you THIS SEASON because of this rule. Numbers count. The more letters, the better.

2. Nominate yourself or someone else who can represent spearfishers to this MA 4B Advisory board. Make sure it's someone who is able to communicate effectively.

3. Find out when the MA4B advisory board meetings will be held, and ATTEND those. Give your input at the end.

If anyone else has other ideas I've left out - please feel free to post.

- Janna

[Jaksonbrown]

Another clarification:


2. Nominate yourself or someone else who can represent spearfishers to this MA 4B Advisory board. Make sure it's someone who is able to communicate effectively.

If anyone else has other ideas I've left out - please feel free to post.

- Janna

Crap... that leaves me out!

Seriously... I think Janna is coming around to the dark side! She sounds like she genuinly understands our plight and has made some good suggestions....

I live near Mill Creek and would be happy to volunteer,... however.. there may be more eloquent folks in this group that might better serve the cause....

But someone needs to do it.

[Chevayea]

Janna, Thanks for your input on this topic and for giving us some direction on how we can contribute. You're the best!

[WASP7000]

Another clarification:


2. Nominate yourself or someone else who can represent spearfishers to this MA 4B Advisory board. Make sure it's someone who is able to communicate effectively.

If anyone else has other ideas I've left out - please feel free to post.

- Janna

Crap... that leaves me out!

Seriously... I think Janna is coming around to the dark side! She sounds like she genuinly understands our plight and has made some good suggestions....

I live near Mill Creek and would be happy to volunteer,... however.. there may be more eloquent folks in this group that might better serve the cause....

But someone needs to do it.

If I had the time, I would do it for sure.

[Jeff Kruse]

I thought for sure someone from this group would step up to do it.

[whatevah]

Go to the meetings. They closed shrimping by scuba until Rob and I went to three meetings to keep it open. They re-wrote the rules so we could continue to shrimp on SCUBA. They were very nice about it.

Sure - nice enough to make it legal at exactly one location in all of Washington. I've asked about this at the meetings - the reason given is that they can't really keep track of the diver harvest. Well, the diver harvest is miniscule - and are they there at Mukilteo surveying the divers as they leave the water? Uh, I don't think so. Meanwhile, the way they track harvest from boaters with shrimp pots is to sit and wait at public launches. What about the mass quantity of shrimp being eaten out on the boats or brought back to shore at private docks, marinas etc ? How are they tracking that?

[Jaksonbrown]

Go to the meetings. They closed shrimping by scuba until Rob and I went to three meetings to keep it open. They re-wrote the rules so we could continue to shrimp on SCUBA. They were very nice about it.

Sure - nice enough to make it legal at exactly one location in all of Washington. I've asked about this at the meetings - the reason given is that they can't really keep track of the diver harvest. Well, the diver harvest is miniscule - and are they there at Mukilteo surveying the divers as they leave the water? Uh, I don't think so. Meanwhile, the way they track harvest from boaters with shrimp pots is to sit and wait at public launches. What about the mass quantity of shrimp being eaten out on the boats or brought back to shore at private docks, marinas etc ? How are they tracking that?

They cannot keep track of it period. It is totally based on personal integrity on the part of the sportsman to report his catch so that they can keep the harvest within the quotas. Stating that they cannot keep track of the harvest of divers is a lame excuse.
I really think that alot of these laws are based on miss information given to the boards that make these decisions. Special interest groups try to swing the laws in their favor and delibereratly provide false data to keep others interest groups controlled or eliminated all together. i.e.... spearos vs Hook and line guys... archery vs gun hunters, etc....

[Jaksonbrown]

So.... I have an addendum to the slot limit rules... As it turns out...Trying to be fair about this concept... hitting the slot limit is turning out to be not entirely as hard as I had anticipated. We have harvested over a dozen fish and have yet to miss the slot limit.

I must add though,.. at first, it was just pure luck that we did not shoot a fish that was not in the limit.. we just got lucky. But by bringing the fish to the surface and measuring them, we have gained the experience to judge what the size looks like under water compared to the actual size of the fish on the surface. The problem here is that most spearos dont get to go most everyday to gain this experience and only get a couple days to hunt given our extremely short season.
And given this fact... once again, at first.... hitting the slot.. is pure chance.
I think that given a longer season, one could get quite good at guessing the size underwater.... I think the solution here is to keep the slot limits, but to compensate, make the seasons longer....

Perhaps if I am elected to the board, I can actually get these opinions heard.......

[pensacoladiver]

So.... I have an addendum to the slot limit rules... As it turns out...Trying to be fair about this concept... hitting the slot limit is turning out to be not entirely as hard as I had anticipated. We have harvested over a dozen fish and have yet to miss the slot limit.

I must add though,.. at first, it was just pure luck that we did not shoot a fish that was not in the limit.. we just got lucky. But by bringing the fish to the surface and measuring them, we have gained the experience to judge what the size looks like under water compared to the actual size of the fish on the surface. The problem here is that most spearos dont get to go most everyday to gain this experience and only get a couple days to hunt given our extremely short season.
And given this fact... once again, at first.... hitting the slot.. is pure chance.
I think that given a longer season, one could get quite good at guessing the size underwater.... I think the solution here is to keep the slot limits, but to compensate, make the seasons longer....

Perhaps if I am elected to the board, I can actually get these opinions heard.......

Interesting theory. I guess there will be no "shorts" pulled up from your boat out in Neah Bay now right?

[Jaksonbrown]

So.... I have an addendum to the slot limit rules... As it turns out...Trying to be fair about this concept... hitting the slot limit is turning out to be not entirely as hard as I had anticipated. We have harvested over a dozen fish and have yet to miss the slot limit.

I must add though,.. at first, it was just pure luck that we did not shoot a fish that was not in the limit.. we just got lucky. But by bringing the fish to the surface and measuring them, we have gained the experience to judge what the size looks like under water compared to the actual size of the fish on the surface. The problem here is that most spearos dont get to go most everyday to gain this experience and only get a couple days to hunt given our extremely short season.
And given this fact... once again, at first.... hitting the slot.. is pure chance.
I think that given a longer season, one could get quite good at guessing the size underwater.... I think the solution here is to keep the slot limits, but to compensate, make the seasons longer....

Perhaps if I am elected to the board, I can actually get these opinions heard.......

Interesting theory. I guess there will be no "shorts" pulled up from your boat out in Neah Bay now right?

No small fishies on my boat.... its Lingzilla time....

[Mattleycrue76]

I kind of agree with what cory said but the truth remains that in order to be on the safe side I have to give myself a couple of inches on either end. I try to guess every fishes length in inches, useing my gun as a refrence before taking a shot, and while all the fish I've gotten have been legal, I've been off by 1-2 inches alot once I actually measure them on the surface.

[scobanro]

Hi all,
Hey without reading every post, I did read " i did not hunt at Neah bay because of the length thingy" I was in neah bay over the holiday weekend and was boarded by the THE MAN, They were nice enough, and it happened to be the day we picked to bounce weights off the bottom for Halibit. Gish what boaring stuff that is. Anyway with no fish on board they informed me that in that area it still 24 in min and NO max size limit and still two per diver. That did make me feel better, because I go out there to collect my fish. I do not hardly hunt inside because of the strain on the areas. If I have to pick between sizes and the "Ticket thingy" I would pick large size not small, but remember they are breaders when big. PS I only take what we can eat.

[diveduo]

Four of us went out for ling cod on Saturday. We had to throw back two that were 25 inches and kept a 26 1/2 and a 30 inch. It made us sick to throw the two back. We hope that next year we won't have the slot limits! We did notice that head size was a fair gage to body size.

[CPMurray]

In response to F&WL Commissioner David Jennings and Northwest Dive News, March issue, Volume 15, issue 3, page 8.

Yes, it has been a “hot button” for spearfishermen regarding the new Lingcod slot limits implemented in the 2010 Washington fishing regulations! I completely agree with Michael Rigik, Rick Stratton and many other spearfishermen concerning the possibility of wasting of fish. The standing rule is impractical and simply does not make sense. You can’t pre-measure a wild, free swimming animal underwater before spearing it!!
I have been spearfishing in the Puget Sound since 1986 along with several highly experienced and very close diving friends. Over the years we have seen more and more regulations put on spearfishing when it comes to harvest limits, closed fishing areas and reduced season length. So, now in some sort of attempt to “align” spearfishing rules with line fisherman, the obvious question to us (spearfishermen) is… Why is the spearfishing season still roughly half as long as the line fishermen? There was enough thought put into applying the same size limits to spearfishing, but not quite enough thought to at least give us the same season as in the past (seven weekends vs. four weekends)?
I would have to believe that the percentage of harvesting done by spearfishing compared to harvesting by the line anglers has to be very different (in favor of the angler). In order to go spearfishing, a person has to spend the extra time and expense for a diving certification, dive gear, a speargun, purchase a fishing license and if you are one of lucky souls to have your own boat!? Then you have to purchase all the permits, licenses, fuel and perform all the maintenance and upkeep on it as well! Doesn’t take long for all that to add up to a healthy bill! And we do all this so we can get maybe 3 or 4 dives in during a four weekend season! Spearfishing is hard enough in itself and slot limits reduce the chances for success by that much more. The real shame of the applied rule is that once a fish has a spear through it, it’s a done deal! There’s no “spear and release” program! So, if a fish is brought back to the boat, measured and rendered out of the regulation slot rule (less than 26 inches or over 36 inches) it will be thrown back a dead or a dying fish. How is that logical in the conservation of a species? Why add slot limits for spearfishing.
It was interesting to read the quotes made by D. Jennings in this article. It sounds like he has logged many dives in the Puget Sound and has had great luck photographing Lingcod. However, Jennings did say that he does not spearfish and that the other eight committee members (who made the current rule) are not divers at all!
There are some great underwater parks here in the Pacific NW i.e. Edmonds Underwater Park. The parks areas are obviously closed for harvesting and the fish there are so use to divers that they would practically let you reach out and touch them! If you want to try your hand at underwater photography, areas such as this would be a great place to do it. No doubt you could swim right up to a 40 lb. Lingcod or many other fish in these protected areas. On the other hand, I challenge you to do this in an open fishing area with not so calm seas, underwater hazards, depth, moving currents and water magnification? It becomes a very different story! You may see your “one” fish swimming away from you or maybe just see an eyeball reflecting from your light in a deep dark hole. From my experience, Lingcod barely give you time to turn the safety off on the speargun, much less pull out and use a measuring device before trying to harvest your “one” fish!


I would really like to see the spearfishing season brought back to its original season length (same as the line anglers). I would also like to see the slot limits removed completely! Most divers in our group would have no problem recording their catch, as all anglers do with salmon, halibut, steelhead, sturgeon and crab. This may give you the data you need to see what’s really going on. Keep it simple and enforce the one ling cod limit in the areas under this regulation. Why limit the already stringent limit? I give great credit to Mike Rigik in his efforts to be a voice to the Commission. He obviously shares the same concern as many Pacific NW spearfishermen.