Lake washington Plane wrecks....

[Jaksonbrown]

I have been trying to find a certain thread but have been unable to locate it... It was about a year ago or so someone posted a link that had all of the plane wrecks in lake washington, GPS coordinates and the history of the wrecks listed. Does anyone know of the thread or link I am referring to?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Nwbrewer]

Both Scott Boyd - http://www.boydski.com/

and Dan Warter - http://www.dcsfilms.com/Site_4/DCS_Website.html

Have good information.

[Jaksonbrown]

Both Scott Boyd - http://www.boydski.com/

and Dan Warter - http://www.dcsfilms.com/Site_4/DCS_Website.html

Have good information.

Thanks Jake,

I have these two, but there was another link posted somewhere that had all of the gps coordinates listed also. I have scotts book for some, but that other link was very well put together and organized. I wish I would have saved it.

[Nwbrewer]

Both Scott Boyd - http://www.boydski.com/

and Dan Warter - http://www.dcsfilms.com/Site_4/DCS_Website.html

Have good information.

Thanks Jake,

I have these two, but there was another link posted somewhere that had all of the gps coordinates listed also. I have scotts book for some, but that other link was very well put together and organized. I wish I would have saved it.

I must have missed that, I agree it would be nice to have, if you find it let me know. What are you thinking about diving?

[John Rawlings]

It was probably a website called "Aquadog" that no longer exists....

[CaptnJack]

John Sharps used to have a page (minus coordinates) but it seems to be under re-construction. www.jawsmarine.com
Scret has a page (again minus coordinates) www.scret.org

Only one of the planes is really a recreational dive anyway (Mariner in south Lake WA, ~75ffw). Your best bet if you want to actually dive these is to get some technical training with one of the instructors/groups diving them semi-regularly.

scubagrunt
vbcoachchris
bdub
are three active technical instructors on the board who can help you get started.

[Fishstiq]

The Valiant could also be done recreationally from a boat (*** PLEASE be carefull if using a shot line!!! ***). There are also a few good wrecks and sites in the lake that are recreational, like the king street scow, Chris Borgen's Unicorn, and the underwater forest.

*edited because I'm a jack@$$.......

[CaptnJack]

The reason half the artifacts on the Valient are gone or crushed into oblivion (like the old "data box") is too many people diving her recreationally. At 115+ffw, inky black, and constructed of something with the consistency of 50yo wet cardboard she's not really a recreational dive IMHO. Training is available to dive these prudently and with an eye towards conservation; it would be great if people took advantage of it.

[Jaksonbrown]

Thanks for the info guys.... Actually, I am finally getting my boat back this week with the new Lowrance HDS 10 w/ sidescan sonar installed. It has been a long time coming and I thought it would be fun to go check out the wrecks on the sonar... hence the GPS coordinates wanted. Technical training is coming, but its gonna come with a Rebreather. No sence learning tech skills and then changing rigs immediatly.

[Chris Borgen]

The Valiant could also be done recreationally from a boat (*** PLEASE be carefull if using a shot line!!! ***). There are also a few good wrecks and sites in the lake that are recreational, like the king street scow, H2ODoc's Unicorn, and the underwater forest.

Damn so now the Unicorn is H20 Docs huh?

[Fishstiq]

The reason half the artifacts on the Valient are gone or crushed into oblivion (like the old "data box") is too many people diving her recreationally. At 115+ffw, inky black, and constructed of something with the consistency of 50yo wet cardboard she's not really a recreational dive IMHO. Training is available to dive these prudently and with an eye towards conservation; it would be great if people took advantage of it.

I agree with parts of that. I don't think it can be said that recreational divers are the cause of the damage and pilfering of everything on that or any other wreck. I agree that there is good, responsable training available, and that people should take advantage of it. That being said, 115 ffw is within recreational limits, and I'm not gonna tellsomeone they "need" tech training to dive it. Its not my wreck.

Chris, sorry! I'll edit that.....

[Chris Borgen]

[\quote]Chris, sorry! I'll edit that.....[/quote]

Haha no I dont care, I just don't want H2O doc to get a big head!!

[Fishstiq]

[\quote]Chris, sorry! I'll edit that.....

Haha no I dont care, I just don't want H2O doc to get a big head!![/quote]


Too late for that!

[lundysd]

I will respectfully disagree with my dive buddy, Joe "no-O2" Fishstiq on this one. The Valiant is being torn apart every single year by careless shot drops and divers (and natural wear and tear). For example, the "US Navy" region on the side was crystal clear 2-3 years ago, and now it's barely readable.

In addition to the damage argument, this wreck is deep, dark, and very silty. It is a difficult dive and should only be done by those with access to helium. The low no-deco time and the narcosis combine to make this a very sketchy rec dive imho.

Finally, I don't think anyone -- John Chatterton or otherwise -- should be doing this dive from a boat. The risk of causing major damage is just too high. It's a short (10 min) scooter run, and this is clearly the best way to maintain a fragile structure.

[ljjames]

The reason half the artifacts on the Valient are gone or crushed into oblivion (like the old "data box") is too many people diving her recreationally. At 115+ffw, inky black, and constructed of something with the consistency of 50yo wet cardboard she's not really a recreational dive IMHO. Training is available to dive these prudently and with an eye towards conservation; it would be great if people took advantage of it.

primary pilfering was done by a group of tech divers in the 90's if memory serves me (no, not my group). Lights from the Al, portholes from the knot, rigging from the AJ fuller, 'stuff' from the planes. East coast wreck diving mentality just doesn't work here in the Northwest. We simply don't have enough wrecks, our wrecks are to easy to get to (no 8 hr boat ride), and the concentration of divers who could theoretically do them is too high. (in my opinion)

I've been fighting tooth and nail for the preservation of our wrecks since i started diving them. Why? because. The dauntless would be darn near meaningless without the prop... Luckily for us, it wasn't worth salvaging or putting in someones yard.

and example. How many of you know about the west point barges? how many of you know that one of them used to have its tow harness on it? On the end of that tow harness was the big stanchion thing, that was still bolted onto part of the deck of the tugboat that was pulling it... So, seeing that you realize that it wasn't just a "oh, cut the tow cable, i think she's sinking" it was a "HOLY CRAP *SNAP* that probably damn near sunk the tug that was pulling it" situation.

And i know a good number of you have dove those two barges (the ones 40' apart that sunk at different times) but the reason you don't know about the tugboat stuff is because someone thought it would be a cool 'artifact' for their front yard planting strip.

I think that 'artifact' added to the story of the barge it was attached to, and i was sad to see it taken.


I agree that careless shot lines and hooking of the planes is a wholly unnecessary given that we have the technology today to visit her in a 'low impact' manner. (AKA scooters)

why do y'all think the US NAVY region lasted for what 50+ years and now in a period of 2-3 is almost gone? Probably not the crawdads...

[Jaksonbrown]

So I have a question. But before I do, I just want to state that I completely agree and desire to preserve our wrecks here in the sound and the lake. I am becoming far to quickly addicted to wreck diving probably for my own good.

That being said, I also have the desire to find cool stuff and bring some souveniers home. I love looking for old bottles, etc. What is considered "acceptable" to bring to the surface? Old anchors? Like the one found recently off of Keystone? bottles? plates? ??? I realize that dismantling wrecks is strictly taboo and would never consider it, but was wondering about other finds that might not be associated with wrecks.

[CaptnJack]

All the planes remain property of the Navy.

Otherwise:

Archaeological sites are protected by state law on both public and private lands. The Archaeological Sites and Resources Act (ASRA) (RCW 27.53) proclaims that archaeological resources in, on, or under state-owned land are the property of the state. These resources are also protected by the Public Lands Act (RCW 79.01) which states that a trespasser who disturbs any “valuable materials” is guilty of larceny.

Chapter7: http://www.dahp.wa.gov/pages/Archaeolog ... ch_000.pdf

That said, bottle collecting is fairly common and appears to not be prosecuted as theft of an archeological resource. If you find a really cool one I would suggest contacting MOAHI, all of us might like to see it. http://www.seattlehistory.org/

[Jaksonbrown]

All the planes remain property of the Navy.

Otherwise:

Archaeological sites are protected by state law on both public and private lands. The Archaeological Sites and Resources Act (ASRA) (RCW 27.53) proclaims that archaeological resources in, on, or under state-owned land are the property of the state. These resources are also protected by the Public Lands Act (RCW 79.01) which states that a trespasser who disturbs any “valuable materials” is guilty of larceny.

Chapter7: http://www.dahp.wa.gov/pages/Archaeolog ... ch_000.pdf

That said, bottle collecting is fairly common and appears to not be prosecuted as theft of an archeological resource. If you find a really cool one I would suggest contacting MOAHI, all of us might like to see it. http://www.seattlehistory.org/

Concerning the military planes... no issue there whatsoever, but as to the rest....
the law seems pretty vague... if not deliberately so.. Even all encompassing. Im sure the laws differ from state to state. I am curious as I know that treasure seeking is still a big time industry in the South eastern waters. Basically, a find becomes the property of the person who discovers it and files a claim. I’m assuming that must not be the case in Wa.
Are wrecks found, named and then set aside as historically significant sites? Or is everything that sinks in Wa just become the property of the state? Or is there a certain amount of time that must pass? Just curious.......

[archaeofish]

To clarify the question of the age requirements:

In Washington State the Archaeological Sites and Resources Act (RCW 27.53) extends state protection to submerged historic sites and artifacts greater than 30 years old:

"RCW 27.53.045
Abandoned archaeological resources — Declaration.


All historic archaeological resources abandoned for thirty years or more in, on, or under the surface of any public lands or waters owned by or under the possession, custody, or control of the state of Washington, including, but not limited to all ships, or aircraft, and any part or the contents thereof, and all treasure trove is hereby declared to be the property of the state of Washington."

the full text of this law is available at: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=27.53

[marcottejlm]

So I have a question. But before I do, I just want to state that I completely agree and desire to preserve our wrecks here in the sound and the lake. I am becoming far to quickly addicted to wreck diving probably for my own good.

That being said, I also have the desire to find cool stuff and bring some souveniers home. I love looking for old bottles, etc. What is considered "acceptable" to bring to the surface? Old anchors? Like the one found recently off of Keystone? bottles? plates? ??? I realize that dismantling wrecks is strictly taboo and would never consider it, but was wondering about other finds that might not be associated with wrecks.

Jaksonbrown, as a maritime archaeologist, I believe I can answer your question about souvenier hunting. Most of the waters in/around Seattle are state owned, and therfore all objects found in the water are essentially the property of the State or other organizations (in the case of the planes, many are still the property of the US Navy). As such, any object at least 50 years old (or older) can be considered an artifact, and removing them is considered an act of looting. Although bottles, ceramics, etc. may seem disarticulated from an archeological site, chances are that a trained archeologist could later put them into context if they are left in situ (in place). Most important, it is difficult for the average person (and sometimes archeologists) to determine an object's age underwater, and they are best left alone. Besides, what fun would diving be for everyone if the stuff that is cool to look at just ends up on someone's mantle?

[Jaksonbrown]

So I have a question. But before I do, I just want to state that I completely agree and desire to preserve our wrecks here in the sound and the lake. I am becoming far to quickly addicted to wreck diving probably for my own good.

That being said, I also have the desire to find cool stuff and bring some souveniers home. I love looking for old bottles, etc. What is considered "acceptable" to bring to the surface? Old anchors? Like the one found recently off of Keystone? bottles? plates? ??? I realize that dismantling wrecks is strictly taboo and would never consider it, but was wondering about other finds that might not be associated with wrecks.

Jaksonbrown, as a maritime archaeologist, I believe I can answer your question about souvenier hunting. Most of the waters in/around Seattle are state owned, and therfore all objects found in the water are essentially the property of the State or other organizations (in the case of the planes, many are still the property of the US Navy). As such, any object at least 50 years old (or older) can be considered an artifact, and removing them is considered an act of looting. Although bottles, ceramics, etc. may seem disarticulated from an archeological site, chances are that a trained archeologist could later put them into context if they are left in situ (in place). Most important, it is difficult for the average person (and sometimes archeologists) to determine an object's age underwater, and they are best left alone. Besides, what fun would diving be for everyone if the stuff that is cool to look at just ends up on someone's mantle?

Im just asking rhetorically.... You know... it is every little kids fantasy to find a sunken treasure ship someday. You read about finds that have been discovered in the Keys and recently the discovery of BlacK Beards Ship in the gulf, all becoming the property of the discoverer and salvage team. Being the anti government wacko that I am... I have a natural tendency to kick against the pricks. The state of Wa declaring that any and everything sunk under the sea belongs to them..... to me.... seems not only rediculous, but pretty damn greedy.. IMO. Im all for preserving history,.. dont get me wrong. But (hypathetically of course) if I came accross a sunken ship no one had discovered and it was full of gold bars......call me an outlaw!
And just to set anyone straight who is possibly thinking I am some sort of potential looter...., the only thing I have removed from our fair seas so far,... has been bleeding....

[lundysd]

I don't think anyone here gives a rats arse what the government wants jackson. If I was the only person in the world who dove, I would loot the hell out of wrecks and everything else I could find. Instead I care about the other divers in the community, and it is out of respect for them that I/we leave things intact.

Re: bottles -- no one will ever do a dive just to see a cool looking bottle. Furthermore, if you called up UW and told them you found an old looking bottle in the lake and asked them to come to an archaeological dig on it, they'd laugh at you. Likewise you'd never tell a fellow dive buddy to "go see that really cool bottle in the lake" for a dive. With that in mind, I say bottle-hunt away.

[Jaksonbrown]

I don't think anyone here gives a rats arse what the government wants jackson. If I was the only person in the world who dove, I would loot the hell out of wrecks and everything else I could find. Instead I care about the other divers in the community, and it is out of respect for them that I/we leave things intact.

.

I completly agree.... but if I ever do find that chest full of gold.......

[CaptnJack]

I completly agree.... but if I ever do find that chest full of gold.......

I'm pretty sure its not in the planes!

[Jaksonbrown]

I completly agree.... but if I ever do find that chest full of gold.......

I'm pretty sure its not in the planes!

Naaa... kinda got off subject..... Threadjacked myself!