My One Buoyancy Issue

[dwashbur]

I was excited to discover, on my second dive Saturday, that I can now go without ankle weights even in my dry suit. My feet had been feeling a little heavy lately, and one of chenari's 3 pound weights broke, so I gave her my two 1.5 pounders and we both did just fine. Less weight is a good thing, especially during the walk to the water!

So now I just have one issue as far as buoyancy is concerned, and I'm wondering how some of you deal with it. The issue is my own breathing. In our OW class they hammered away at "breathe slow and deep." I've been doing just that ever since, and my SAC runs about .5-.6 most all the time. But the deep breathing constantly changes my buoyancy, so I go through the water a bit like a car driving over rolling hills: up a little, down a little, up a little, down a little, you get the picture. I can hover pretty good when I'm not doing what I was taught, which is a little...weird. The buoyancy changes aren't a big problem unless I'm trying to take a picture, then it gets frustrating.

I'm open to any & all ideas for improving the situation; if I need to learn to breathe more shallow I can sure try. I'm wondering what it will do to my air consumption, but again, I'll take all the suggestions I can get.

What do you folks think?

[lizard0924]

Have you taken a Peak Performance Buoyancy class? That will help you ensure that your weighting is appropriate, which (at least for me) went a long way toward helping me manage trim/buoyancy when I dive...regardless of whether I'm breathing shallow or deep.

[Tom Nic]

Getting your weighting spot on and your trim worked out will go a LONG way towards ironing those things out...

The fact that you were diving with ankle weights and now don't need them shows you were solving a skill issue with equipment. If you're going too far up and down my guess is that your weighting is wrong.

A little change in depth is "normal" - and precise position control with breathing is one of the benefits of diving OC as opposed to CCR. There are times when I need to control my position to the inch - and times when it is not as critical.

And not to inveigh against a class... a dive with someone who you know has excellent buoyancy control and positioning in the water and whom you give permission to critique your own buoyancy and trim and make suggestions will probably do more than a Peak Performance Buoyancy class.... and will cost a bit less.

[LCF]

The "breathe deep and slowly" instruction is to counter the new diver's tendency to breathe shallowly and fast.

There will always be oscillations with breathing, because changing the volume of your lungs changes your buoyancy. Rick Murchison, of ScubaBoard, has an excellent post about this. The trick to minimizing the magnitude is to moderate the volume change, and master the rhythm. A horizontal body has significant inertia in the water, so after one has inhaled, the movement upward doesn't begin instantly, and does begin slowly. If, once upward motion is present, one then EXHALES, the upward motion will be arrested, and one will begin to fall. If the rhythm is correct, the net excursion from the desired depth will be measured in a few inches. On the other hand, if the lung volume changes are too great, or are held too long, the excursions will be much larger.

When it is critical to remain still in the water (as when looking under something, and only an inch or so off the bottom), one can simply reduce the size of ones breaths, and cycle them around a midpoint where buoyancy is neutral. This is a skill cave divers have to master, because we have to remain quite still when putting in ties or dropping or picking up markers.

[Dashrynn]

I remember when i was wearing ankle weight.....is voice who told me "hey you don't need those" (also the same voice who said i would go dirish) was right. i busted an ankle weight and didn't wanna buy another expensive pair so i just removed them and added more weight at my waist. now that's how i dive, without those damned jiggling masses of weight around my ankles.

[lavachickie]

I was thrilled when I realized, around dive 20, that the whole "breathe deep" was a rule that you have to learn well enough to know when to break. It's taught to stave off a cascading panic reaction if you are amped up and breathing very shallow.

Really, in regular diving conditions, you do not fully and deeply inhale/exhale -- because to do so can cause a substantial change in buoyancy for me, and just about everyone. (I gots big lungs. And that's not a euphemism, I used to play woodwinds!)

I'd say I breath in to 75%. I reserve the remaining 25% of lung capacity for the times I need to rise to go over an object and then come right back down. I rarely exhale 100%, either, again reserving that little bit for a need to slightly drop down.

I realize it, but coming up on the big 5-0 I am far from mastering it. =-)

[spatman]

I'd say I breath in to 75%. I reserve the remaining 25% of lung capacity for the times I need to rise to go over an object and then come right back down. I rarely exhale 100%, either, again reserving that little bit for a need to slightly drop down.

everyone's physiology is different, so this technique may not be good for everyone. i seem to be sensitive to CO2, so not fully exhaling leaves CO2 in circulation, and makes me a little edgy and sometimes a sense of shortness of breath.

[Dusty2]

I find that shallow slow breaths in the middle of what I would consider "normal volume" works for me. Like has been stated, only fully inhaling or exhaling when I want to rise or drop. I also have a slight pause at the top and bottom of the cycle which allows me to relax and control my sat for minimum consumption under normal conditions.

It takes awhile, as spat said, everyone is different. if you are feeling short of breath you are not working within you bodies comfort zone and need to adjust your exchange volume till your body tells you it's happy with the level. This is one place where nitrox really helps. The higher volume of oxygen makes it easier for you body to get what it needs without increasing intake volume.

[dwashbur]

Regarding the ankle weights, they were just sort of a "given." They came with the dry suit, and the guy who sold me the suit told me I would need them, so I've just used them routinely ever since (about 3 years now). I've suspected for some time now that I was a tad overweighted, because I can make the switch from my LP 108 tank to my LP 95 with no trouble descending. But the past 10 dives or so I started noticing a tendency for my feet to sink. I made some trim-type adjustments to my weighting but was still having the problem. So Saturday, when I knew there would be plenty of divers in the water to help out if things went goofy on me, I took the ankle weights off. Since it was the second dive of the day I was using the 95, and while my descent was a little slower, I still had no trouble a-tall a-tall. And my feet still seemed a little heavy, but it was a lot easier to keep them up while hovering etc. So, from the sound of things, I may still be a little overweight (referring to lead, not the spare tire around my middle). Definitely something to experiment with.

Liz, I haven't taken an "official" PPB, but I've helped with several and kept my ears open, so as Tom indicated, I've had the benefit of the knowledge without the expenditure of scuba units.

As for breathing, from the very beginning I've done my breathing to an internal count. The musicians among us will understand that; the back of my mind counts in a slow rhythm during both inhale and exhale. Usually it's an 8 count, but if I'm feeling adventurous I'll draw it out to a 12 just to slow my breathing even more. But I'm more than willing to try something different, especially if it has the potential to improve my SAC rate. I'm ALWAYS in the market for ways to improve that. The internal count is so automatic now I do it without even realizing it, so breaking that habit could take some major effort. Sounds like it's worth it, though.

Thanks for all the great ideas so far; keep 'em coming!!!!!!

[ljjames]

GUE Primer (workshop, not a certification) coming up in November with Guy Shockey is also an awesome opportunity, as is coming out to the tweek dives where we often do weight checks at the end of the dive. The purpose of the tweeks is to tinker or 'tweek' stuff like this...

sac rate shouldnt be 'controlled' by breathing patterns, it should be improved by increasing your efficiency in the water and decreasing the effort or workload required to 'move' in the water. i think i got some video of you team at the club dive, and everyone was still pretty 'active' in the water (if that makes sense). lowering your sac rate will come with finding 'stillness' or 'oneness' with the water... be like the plankton

[lizard0924]

Liz, I haven't taken an "official" PPB, but I've helped with several and kept my ears open, so as Tom indicated, I've had the benefit of the knowledge without the expenditure of scuba units.

Your reference to using ankle weights (for three years?!) led me to the belief that you hadn't had benefit of working with someone to perfect your weighting. The only time I've actually seen people using ankle weights are when they are first learning to use their drysuit.

In the classes that you helped out with, didn't the instructor encourage students NOT to use ankle weights? I've heard that advice repeated over and over by every instructor I've ever worked with (or dived with) since I started diving here.

[whatevah]

I was excited to discover, on my second dive Saturday, that I can now go without ankle weights even in my dry suit.

Congratulations on ditching the ankle weights! That will make a big difference to your efficiency both surface swimming and during the dive. Make sure you're not over-weighted and that you're still trimmed out correctly (your body is horizontal in the water) and I am sure you will find that your breathing will find its own pattern. I am overdue for a weight check myself - will take care of that next time I shore dive.

I'm open to any & all ideas for improving the situation; if I need to learn to breathe more shallow I can sure try. I'm wondering what it will do to my air consumption, but again, I'll take all the suggestions I can get.

My advice would be to avoid thinking about it. As in running, swimming or any other physical endeavor, finding the right timing for your breathing will improve your efficiency. For me though, thinking about it just causes me more difficulties - sometimes best to let it just happen We all tend to adjust our breathing for fine control of buoyancy - seems to be a habit that just develops by itself.

[oregondiver]

Your reference to using ankle weights (for three years?!) led me to the belief that you hadn't had benefit of working with someone to perfect your weighting. The only time I've actually seen people using ankle weights are when they are first learning to use their drysuit.

I learned to dive with ankle weights with my old drysuit. The big solid boots had no way of squeezing air out with fin keepers or otherwise. If I dove without ankle weights, my feet WOULD float up, even after 10 years ( I would try every year to ditch them). It just didn't work for the boots on that drysuit.

Got my new drysuit with a neoprene sock. Now I can have footwear that is tight and keeps air from entering my feet. I no longer need ankle weights. But I DO continue to need them in my old suit. And sometimes....people just have cankles which could make their lower extremities more bouyant.

[lizard0924]

Your reference to using ankle weights (for three years?!) led me to the belief that you hadn't had benefit of working with someone to perfect your weighting. The only time I've actually seen people using ankle weights are when they are first learning to use their drysuit.

I learned to dive with ankle weights with my old drysuit. The big solid boots had no way of squeezing air out with fin keepers or otherwise. If I dove without ankle weights, my feet WOULD float up, even after 10 years ( I would try every year to ditch them). It just didn't work for the boots on that drysuit.

Got my new drysuit with a neoprene sock. Now I can have footwear that is tight and keeps air from entering my feet. I no longer need ankle weights. But I DO continue to need them in my old suit. And sometimes....people just have cankles which could make their lower extremities more bouyant.

LOL...I was always wondering WHY you used ankle weights.

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning (my last drysuit was a DC with those stupid integrated, loose rubber boots that left lots of room for air to circulate around my feet....yet I learned how to dive it sans ankle weights). IMHO, ankle weights are a crutch to avoid mastering buoyancy issues thru proper weighting and learned skills.

[spatman]

IMHO, ankle weights are a crutch to avoid mastering buoyancy issues thru proper weighting and learned skills.

i guess i never understood why people say this. we do all sorts of weight management and positioning, trying out steel plate vs aluminum plates, weights on the cam bands or not, v-weights, etc. why do ankle weights get such a bad rap?

[BDub]

IMHO, ankle weights are a crutch to avoid mastering buoyancy issues thru proper weighting and learned skills.

i guess i never understood why people say this. we do all sorts of weight management and positioning, trying out steel plate vs aluminum plates, weights on the cam bands or not, v-weights, etc. why do ankle weights get such a bad rap?

They move weight far from the CoG, which is tough to counterbalance.

All that weight at your ankles also makes it tough to keep your legs up. Not a big deal if you don't do the frog kick, but even for the standard flutter kick, your legs have to work harder because of the additional weight at your feet.

[dwashbur]

I know at least one person - my daughter - who HAS to wear ankle weights because without them she's just upside-down all the time. Her feet float like I've never seen before. Even a dry suit with neoprene socks hasn't helped much; she was having to wear 5 pounds on each foot, and has been able to cut it down to 3 lately, but below that she's feet-up no matter what she does. So it's not always a crutch thing; some people are airheads, some people apparently are airfeet

[ljjames]

It can also be where the tank/valves/regulators sit on her body. small people have a harder time with this because they generally have the tank 'higher' on their backs when actually in the water. this comes from where the tank is sitting on the bulkhead when they are getting ready... we put the BC where it's easier to get into it. which is usually not with the butt of the tank halfway down the back of the thighs.

the quickest, best way to make yourself less 'feet floaty' is to lower the tank.

i was a perfect example of this. i SWORE up and down that i was feet heavy. then Bob Sherwood had me get my air out of the suit, find 'neutral' and stop moving. without the air in my suit and without constantly finning i almost flipped all the way over. How is this possilble?!?! Well, when our heads are very heavy (actually our valves and regulators), we compensate by making our feet 'heavy' by comparison. to maintain a comfortable position we actually capture a bubble of air in the chest area of our suit (or BC if we are diving wet), we keep the feet 'down' at a 30-40 degree angle which compresses them, and the air bubble in our torso keeps us from feeling like we are gonna end-over-end for the most part. but the second we come up to trim position and that bubble redistributes equally, we become head heavy again and as soon as we 'let go' a little, the feet fill with air, we get even more feel light, etc...

when i did fundies (same thing happened to actually all the students in my class) bob actually lowered my tanks almost 6", between moving the bands and loosening my shoulder straps. THIS is what the crotch strap is for... hold the gear 'lower' on your body. The benefit of doing this is the shoulder straps suddenly became loose enough to get into and out of quite readily. but you have to make that crotch strap equally shorter or you'll feel like the gear is super sloppy.

Anyhow, moving the tanks that far south alleviated the 'floaty feet' feeling completely (or what it really was, head heavy)

this kit buoyancy (balanced rig) is also why some people don't like bending their knees at first in the trim position. if you've got great big long levers (like bdub was describing) and thats what counterbalancing your heavy head, the last thing you feel like you want to do is 'shorten' them by bending, because if you are 'closer' to balanced, bending your knees will bring back the head heavy feeling. doubly so if you've been using ankle weights. Once you get used to diving this way, we actually use our knee/foot position to change our angle of attack in the water...
knees at 90, face forward/head back (aka in looking around position) = trim
knees out a bit = head goes up and we swim over the pilings;
knees in a bit, head looking down slightly = head heavy, and with a bit of forward propulsion we actually go down the other side of the piling.

long story short though, the bottom line is generally its the scuba kit that is kicking us 'out of trim'. The human body generally floats close to 'neutral' trim. if you took off all the kit in a place where you don't need a weight belt and are just breathing off the hose with the kit laying on the bottom of the pool, and/or if you do need weight, instead of a belt low around your waist, you distributed it over your center of gravity, 90% of the time we find that we float in perfect trim with almost ZERO effort.

So this means that the trick is to a) balance your kit, and b) balance your kit over your center of gravity.

and no, i'm only halfway through my first redbull

I know at least one person - my daughter - who HAS to wear ankle weights because without them she's just upside-down all the time. Her feet float like I've never seen before. Even a dry suit with neoprene socks hasn't helped much; she was having to wear 5 pounds on each foot, and has been able to cut it down to 3 lately, but below that she's feet-up no matter what she does. So it's not always a crutch thing; some people are airheads, some people apparently are airfeet

[dwashbur]

i think i got some video of you team at the club dive, and everyone was still pretty 'active' in the water (if that makes sense).

Any chance I could get a look at that video? I suspect it would be quite helpful and revealing.

[ljjames]

but of course! I didn't get a lot, but i'll put what i have up on a private vimeo vid once i've go it processed and PM the link. I only make things 'public' if the divers/people in the shot have said it's okay (and even then i do my best to make peeps look good). When we video tweeks, i invite all attendees to actually watch the whole dive video unedited, mostly because the 'public consumption' video is the best clips (of both my ham handed camera work and the divers) in summary in the unedited form they can see the 'rest of the story'

If you can make it out to one of our weekend dives, i'd be happy to shoot 5-10 min of you guys swimming around to get a good picture of whats going on

i think i got some video of you team at the club dive, and everyone was still pretty 'active' in the water (if that makes sense).

Any chance I could get a look at that video? I suspect it would be quite helpful and revealing.

[Blaiz]

so with moving the tank down, if needed, i could probably squeak out a couple of inches, but, uhm, how much tank needs to be sticking above the band in order to be held securely...?

[Nwbrewer]

so with moving the tank down, if needed, i could probably squeak out a couple of inches, but, uhm, how much tank needs to be sticking above the band in order to be held securely...?

My top strap is about 1/4" below the crown. If you've only got 1, I wouldn't go quite that low though.

[Pez7378]

[dwashbur]

In the classes that you helped out with, didn't the instructor encourage students NOT to use ankle weights? I've heard that advice repeated over and over by every instructor I've ever worked with (or dived with) since I started diving here.

The students were all in wetsuits, so ankle weights usually never came up in discussion.

And sometimes....people just have cankles which could make their lower extremities more bouyant.

I knew there was a word for it, I just couldn't remember what it was, and after you cited it I had to look it up . This is what my daughter has, and there doesn't seem to be any other way to deal with it.

[ljjames]

i'm just not sure that an average height/weight person will have enough fat around their cankles to actually make them _that_ foot light. Having worked in a plastic surgeons office, where we reshaped more than a few cankles, it was generally a tiny amount of fat that we removed to made a pretty huge difference.

more likely its a combo of fins and gear configuration...