"Maybe you're not up on current events.....

[spatman]

you guys only like me for my web skills. <sniff>

[Marc]

you guys only like me for my web skills. <sniff>

And your knowledge of good BBQ joints.

[airsix]

A like button? Just make your own.

Click to like this thread.

[citycatred]

you guys only like me for my web skills. <sniff>

Awwwwww spatty :'( Thats not the truth though you do have amazing web skills

[kdupreez]

Oh, I'm quite sure ALL of your dives would be MUCH more successful without me. I'll just go back to basking in my own glory, as is my custom. I'm always posting trip reports, all the time, so I can "gather my fans" around me. I just wonder why a luminary such as yourself dives solo? With your magnetic personality and overwhelming charisma, surely there are plenty of people clamoring for an opportunity to bask in the warm light of your presence!

Nicely said Josh!! had me int stitches!

+1 on the LIKE button!

[citycatred]

Spatty, please add a "BS" button while you're at it, there are numerous other posts in this thread alone that deserve it.

Bl

[kdupreez]

Spatty, please add a "BS" button while you're at it, there are numerous other posts in this thread alone that deserve it.

[H20doctor]

all this bag shooting is getting me , hot and bothered.. Twss

[Joshua Smith]

LIKE!

Spatty, please add a "BS" button while you're at it, there are numerous other posts in this thread alone that deserve it.

[spatman]

you guys only like me for my web skills. <sniff>

And your knowledge of good BBQ joints.

that, too.

i'm looking into adding a "thanks" feature. not sure if there's a "bullshit" mod though...

[Grateful Diver]

not sure if there's a "bullshit" mod though...

... depends on who you ask ...



... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Geek]

Back when I was in Nam' in the teams, We dove single 72's to 180fsw.. did 40 min of bottom time, did a green water accent with no stinking SMB, who needs one.. we were tough back then, didn't believe in deco, did our 3 min at 10fsw, then did some free diving to 300fsw to get the blood flowing, I don't know what you all are talking about narcosis..... it's just your brain playing trick's on you, all the drag from wearing those stupid HP130's....

[Dashrynn]

all this bag shooting is getting me , hot and bothered.. Twss

Tube blower....

[CaptnJack]

Back when I was in Nam' in the teams, We dove single 72's to 180fsw.. did 40 min of bottom time, did a green water accent with no stinking SMB, who needs one.. we were tough back then, didn't believe in deco, did our 3 min at 10fsw, then did some free diving to 300fsw to get the blood flowing, I don't know what you all are talking about narcosis..... it's just your brain playing trick's on you, all the drag from wearing those stupid HP130's....

Cherry pickin' scuba math

[whatevah]

Yeah. I'll be sure and clear my next bag shot with you. Where do you get off giving advice like this? As far as I can tell, you're not an instructor. You appear to have started diving about 7 months before I did.

Don't know when you started diving - don't care - it's irrelevant. I'm not a diving instructor. Are you saying that if I had a little card that said "Instructor" on it you'd open your mind and actually consider the information given? I won't "clear" your diving activities - your results are your own responsibility. I've learned that the reason many people send an SMB to the surface on a reel from the depths is for comfort alone - it's a safety blanket that helps maintain some calm when the situation is otherwise unpleasant. Yes, as has already been mentioned, I'm aware that it can be important for tracking by a live boat. I thought there might be some other reasoning that I could learn about from you but judging by your evasion of the real discussion I guess that's all there is to it.

And yet your opinions are issued with a certain smug, self-satisfied, and dare I say *arrogant* air of authority. I think you're a troll.

Hence your unwillingness to discuss the pros/cons of any of the points made - we've progressed directly to the meaningless "+1"s, the BSs, and the whining about how offended you are. I'm seeing it now, thank you.

Oh, I'm quite sure ALL of your dives would be MUCH more successful without me. I'll just go back to basking in my own glory, as is my custom. I'm always posting trip reports, all the time, so I can "gather my fans" around me. I just wonder why a luminary such as yourself dives solo?

You might have to actually participate in a reasoned discussion to find out. Wipe the spittle from the corners of your mouth, take a deep breath, and I suspect you'll find out that when I dive solo it's for the same reasons plenty of others on this forum do.

With your magnetic personality and overwhelming charisma, surely there are plenty of people clamoring for an opportunity to bask in the warm light of your presence!

Don't really know, but I can tell you that I don't measure my value as a diving companion by a count of "+1"s and "Like"s on this website. You've generated an impressive amount of drama around a simple failure to comprehend: what I wrote does not imply that I always dive solo. Most of my dives I'm quite happy to do alone, but I probably share about half of them with other divers. The few dives that I feel really require a buddy I am selecting from a much smaller pool of people, but I suspect all of us who've been diving a while and gotten some experience feel the same way about planning certain dives. The key is, I like diving with people who are there to dive and to learn from each dive. I like it when people place more emphasis on their own logical progression towards competence and confidence rather than throwing money at equipment, getting religious about a particular agency, or collecting up more certifications early in their experience. I want them to be both self-critical and to be willing to offer criticism to me, and they have to be capable of an unemotional analysis of pros/cons. There may be something more that you could teach me about what we've been discussing, but you lost the plot early because of what you perceived to be an attack on your ego.

In case it isn't clear already, here's the plain truth about my participation in these forums... I am not here looking for dive buddies. Diving is not a social activity for me, and I'm about as interested in being in a dive "club" as I am in going to a philately convention. If I have a free day for diving I really do not want to spend it at a shore dive site with a mass of other divers. Sometimes I enjoy a brief chat with a few other divers about new ideas, safety strategies, dive sites and travel, photography, marine conservation and critter identification, etc - and that's the part that I appreciate about this website.

I don't get the "difficulty" part ... shooting a bag isn't at all difficult. I teach it regularly to some fairly inexperienced divers. It's just another skill ... if you're hesitant to use it, that just means you haven't practiced enough.

It is just another skill, you're absolutely right Bob. However, we don't use every one of the skills we're taught at the earliest opportunity on every dive. Each skill is intended for certain circumstances. Use the skill when it serves you some purpose, I think.

Once the bag's up, ascending a line is preferable to not ascending a line ... having a visual reference reduces the necessity to be constantly monitoring your depth. For long hangs, I find it much more relaxing.

Okay, and this is what I've learned through this thread. For some it provides a calmer ascent because they are more comfortable using it to manage their depth than doing it by gauge and buoyancy control alone. Still, this is a personal thing - ascending the line is not always preferable to not ascending a line. I personally do not want to deal with holding the line and reeling it on the way up unless I feel a need for it. At a stop, I don't like to hang negative on the line - I'd rather just float freely - it's more comfortable to me now. One still needs to manage buoyancy with a line, and trying to hang comfortably in perfect position with the line takes up some of my cycles - I'd rather be free to flip through the photos on my camera, package my speargun, etc. I used to feel better having the line right from the point where I was losing sight of structure (not because I thought I needed it to manage my depth on the ascent but because I thought having some object with me was a link to the surface just like maintaining sight of the bottom on a slope), but I don't feel that way anymore. Now I just use it so the boat can track me, and as a safety measure for the final part of my ascent when I'm in a heavily trafficked area.

I truly don't understand your objection ...

Let me give it another try and sum it up in a nutshell. I don't object to the use of SMBs/reels - great tools and an important skill when your diving progresses past a certain point. I don't care what depth people deploy them from - I've shared some insight into what presently works for me and how that evolved, but mostly I wanted to see what the range of different practices were. What I do have a problem with is divers in open water with an aversion to green water ascents - when the shit hits the fan it sometimes becomes a factor in irrational decisions. We are all familiar with the story of divers who have lost their lives because they felt they had to follow the structure to the surface - it is panic driven. I know that OOA situations are a big concern of yours and in some cases those happen because people insist on taking the long way back to the surface - along the structure - or returning on the same path they came. I am simply wanting to make the case that green water ascents are not that bad - shifting ones viewpoint can make them quite beautiful, peaceful and enjoyable. If you find that your dive is not going well and you feel stress and/or narcosis impinging on your ability to make reasoned decisions, get shallower as soon as you can. Don't spend your time trying to navigate your way back up the slope, follow the same path back, or even deploying an SMB on a reel. Shallow up - at least to the point where you feel calm and able to make solid decisions again - deploy the SMB later. If you haven't come to grips with green water ascents (without the line), it is well worth some time and it will give you more options. That's it. Take it or leave it

[Grateful Diver]

I'll leave it, thanks ... I really don't see why this thread had to get turned into some massive pissing contest.

Frankly, this is a major example of why so many people are hesitant to post anything here ... because we've got a couple self-appointed scuba sherriffs who are always gonna come barging in telling them why they're doing it wrong.

Who needs that kind of heartburn.

If your intent was to show everybody how bloody superior you are, well ... congratulations ... now we know ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BDub]

Having dived with both of them, I have no doubt that both Marc and Josh could execute a green water ascent from that depth with little issue.

They both already stated that vis sucked deep. They just experienced a potentially catastrophic situation. Shooting a bag, which like Marc said, shouldn't take more than 60 seconds from reaching in the pocket to reaching the surface, now gives them a bit of stability/reference in crappy vis and after just coming out of an f'd up situation.

Had one or both of them not been able to do a green water ascent without a line, I'd say they have no business doing that dive. The difference is they both CAN do a green water ascent, but decided to shoot a bag. There's a big difference between needing to shoot the bag in order to do a direct ascent, and making the conscious decision to shoot a bag, which they're they're trained and proficient at, to stop the incident pit where it's at and prevent it from escalating.

Thanks for sharing guys.

[Fishstiq]

Well, if I was a new diver and new to the board, and this was one of the first threads I read, I don't think I would hang around very long.

Can't you guys just settle this like adults and send each other nasty PM's? I have several fill-in-the-blank style templates I'm willing to send out if it will help get the ball rolling.

[lamont]

Let me give it another try and sum it up in a nutshell. I don't object to the use of SMBs/reels - great tools and an important skill when your diving progresses past a certain point. I don't care what depth people deploy them from - I've shared some insight into what presently works for me and how that evolved, but mostly I wanted to see what the range of different practices were. What I do have a problem with is divers in open water with an aversion to green water ascents - when the shit hits the fan it sometimes becomes a factor in irrational decisions. We are all familiar with the story of divers who have lost their lives because they felt they had to follow the structure to the surface - it is panic driven. I know that OOA situations are a big concern of yours and in some cases those happen because people insist on taking the long way back to the surface - along the structure - or returning on the same path they came. I am simply wanting to make the case that green water ascents are not that bad - shifting ones viewpoint can make them quite beautiful, peaceful and enjoyable. If you find that your dive is not going well and you feel stress and/or narcosis impinging on your ability to make reasoned decisions, get shallower as soon as you can. Don't spend your time trying to navigate your way back up the slope, follow the same path back, or even deploying an SMB on a reel. Shallow up - at least to the point where you feel calm and able to make solid decisions again - deploy the SMB later. If you haven't come to grips with green water ascents (without the line), it is well worth some time and it will give you more options. That's it. Take it or leave it

brought outside of the context of this argument and the personalities involved i actually think i agree with nearly everything in that paragraph.

i'd also say that a good tool to have would be to be able to blow off the bottom and slow down the deco, CNS and gas clocks and be able to shoot a bag more or less on the fly, or at least get it done from a first midwater/deep stop.

and one thing that rockbottom calculations do not take into account is time to ascend along a slope or swim to an upline. i think i tried to be clear about that in my write-up, but rockbottom is assuming a thumb and a green/blue water ascent from that location. if you need more time to get back to an upline it needs to be padded or use halves or thirds rules.

[Joshua Smith]

Don't really know, but I can tell you that I don't measure my value as a diving companion by a count of "+1"s and "Like"s on this website.

Well, neither do I. But in your case, I think that's an especially wise choice. I would like for this to be done with. I'll just say that I don't really object to WHAT you've been saying so much as I object to HOW you said it. Your tone reads as condescending- not just to me, but to a lot of other people, too.

[Joshua Smith]

i'd also say that a good tool to have would be to be able to blow off the bottom and slow down the deco, CNS and gas clocks and be able to shoot a bag more or less on the fly, or at least get it done from a first midwater/deep stop.

What's funny to me is that this is exactly what we did. We left the bottom at 140', and Marc shot at 90 or 100', I think. We WERE doing a no-nothin' ascent. The bag shot was a super bonus on the tail end of a crap dive.

[Sounder]

[Norris]

Yikes

[dsteding]

What is especially funny to me is that I KNOW Marc doesn't need to use a bag as a crutch, and I'm pretty danm sure Josh doesn't need to either. All this debate bag no bag (douche or otherwise) really doesn't apply to these two guys or this dive.

[Grateful Diver]

I'll just say that I don't really object to WHAT you've been saying so much as I object to HOW you said it. Your tone reads as condescending- not just to me, but to a lot of other people, too.

That pretty much sums it up as to why I even got involved in this conversation.

I'm sitting here tonight working on a promo piece for the club to use at the Dive Expo. And what I'm reading in this thread is completely at odds with what I'm trying to promote as a place where friendly people come to have fun.

There's two or three people who come to this board who, frankly, I don't think exemplify the spirit of what we're supposed to be all about ... which is to have fun. They're the ones who just can't let ANYONE post a trip report without some sort of comment about why didn't you do this, or you did it that way all wrong, or how you should've done it some other way.

It's not so much what they say ... but how they say it ... that puts people off. As Joe so aptly points out, if someone new reads this stuff, it inhibits their desire to participate here.

Just dive the way you like, and let other people do the same ... quit sucking the fun out of coming here to talk about it. If you can't come in here and be friendly with your posts, then ... to my concern, at least ... you don't belong here.

Frankly ... if I can make a request from one of our mods ... I'd like to see about 90% of this thread disappear ... including probably every one of my own posts. Because this thread is NOT representative of what I'd like to see us promoting as a "friendly Northwest Dive Club" ... which is, I think, what most of us here want it to be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)