Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

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Peter Guy
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by Peter Guy »

Sadly, too often some lawyer with minimal-to-nonexistent ethics is all too eager to capitalize on other people's suffering.
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I didn't hear anybody say this or even imply it ["'the bastard lawyers' stuff"].
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I guess saying someone has "minimal-to-nonexistent ethics" doesn't really mean the guy is a bastard -- at least in someone's world.
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spatman
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by spatman »

ok, let's get off of the he-said she-said anti-lawyer crap right now.
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ArcticDiver
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by ArcticDiver »

This is just another area that deserves more attention in the training of instructors and others in the dive instruction industry. As was discussed in another thread the economic and marketing aspects of the business are poorly understood. In my experience the role of respective liabilities and associated contracts are equally poorly understood. To be a true professional these things have to be understood.

One example I recently experienced concerned a liablility release I, and others in the party, signed. Then the Dive Master on the charter immediately invalidated it by his conduct. Attorneys on this forum can probably explain better than I how that is done. But, the DM involved had no clue.

This has no bearing on the merits of this case but is something that this incident calls to mind.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by CaptnJack »

ArcticDiver wrote:One example I recently experienced concerned a liablility release I, and others in the party, signed. Then the Dive Master on the charter immediately invalidated it by his conduct. Attorneys on this forum can probably explain better than I how that is done. But, the DM involved had no clue.
"No clue" is in the eye of the beholder, hopefully 11 men and women get to make a decision about this.
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oldsalt
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by oldsalt »

You dive professionals can judge better than me, but I think the college's dive manual looks pretty complete. If they were following its provisions, I don't see where there is much more that the college could do and still put people in the water. When I was teaching high school oceanography, my district not only prohibited diving but even tidepooling because of the risk involved.
http://www.wallawalla.edu/academics/dep ... manual.pdf
Regardless, the loss of a diver hurts everyone involved.
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whatevah
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by whatevah »

CaptnJack wrote:
nwscubamom wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:I remember this death, but the exact area of their dive is a bit muddied in my mind. Does anyone recall? Was it by shore or charter?
Otherwise I have no idea of the merits of the claims.
It was charter, and it was off Northwest Island, just off Rosario Beach IIRC.

- Janna
I guess I find it interesting the the boat isn't named in the suit then. Maybe the skipper had recommended an alternative site or something and the family feels he/she was not a negligent party.
North end of Northwest Island, from a boat (not a charter).
ljjames wrote:the buddy described communicating with her at the 20' stop, telling her she was ascending cause she was cold. She says she climbed out of the water onto the boat, assuming Shari was right behind her and would be up shortly...
Out of curiosity, what was the source of that information?
airsix wrote:It's too bad about all this (the accident).
Agreed. I can't believe it has been three years already, and I'm saddened to learn that an already painful event is now heading down what will undoubtedly be a difficult path for all involved.
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dwashbur
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by dwashbur »

whatevah wrote:
Agreed. I can't believe it has been three years already, and I'm saddened to learn that an already painful event is now heading down what will undoubtedly be a difficult path for all involved.
It's probably not important, but does anybody have any idea why it took three years for this to come to a lawsuit?
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by Grateful Diver »

oldsalt wrote:You dive professionals can judge better than me, but I think the college's dive manual looks pretty complete. If they were following its provisions, I don't see where there is much more that the college could do and still put people in the water. When I was teaching high school oceanography, my district not only prohibited diving but even tidepooling because of the risk involved.
http://www.wallawalla.edu/academics/dep ... manual.pdf
Regardless, the loss of a diver hurts everyone involved.
-Curt
Curt, that link gives me a "file not found" ... I'd be interested in looking at the manual if you have a link that works ...

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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by ArcticDiver »

CaptnJack wrote:
ArcticDiver wrote:One example I recently experienced concerned a liablility release I, and others in the party, signed. Then the Dive Master on the charter immediately invalidated it by his conduct. Attorneys on this forum can probably explain better than I how that is done. But, the DM involved had no clue.
"No clue" is in the eye of the beholder, hopefully 11 men and women get to make a decision about this.
As I said, my comment has no bearing on this thread. It is just spin off suggesting that the dive industry does not operate in isolation and that many are not very well trained in the economic and legal aspects of their business.

As far as I can read on one who has posted so far has any detailed knowledge about the subject incident. I do look forward to reading the results some months from now when the case is resolved.
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by Rockfish »

Here is the Scuba page at WWU,

http://www.wallawalla.edu/academics/are ... ba-diving/

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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by oldsalt »

Bob: Sorry I messed up. I hope this works.
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http://www.wallawalla.edu/academics/dep ... manual.pdf
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by RoxnDox »

oldsalt wrote:You dive professionals can judge better than me, but I think the college's dive manual looks pretty complete. If they were following its provisions, I don't see where there is much more that the college could do and still put people in the water. When I was teaching high school oceanography, my district not only prohibited diving but even tidepooling because of the risk involved.
http://www.wallawalla.edu/academics/dep ... manual.pdf
Regardless, the loss of a diver hurts everyone involved.
-Curt
Manual is apparently gone... Would have been interesting to see.

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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by renoun »

RoxnDox wrote:
Manual is apparently gone... Would have been interesting to see.

Jim
Don't they know the internet is forever. Archive.org has a capture from May 28, 2010 of their scuba page. I'm attaching a PDF of the manual I found.
Attachments
WWU Scuba Polcy 2009.pdf
(906.89 KiB) Downloaded 138 times
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by Sounder »

renoun wrote:
RoxnDox wrote:
Manual is apparently gone... Would have been interesting to see.

Jim
Don't they know the internet is forever. Archive.org has a capture from May 28, 2010 of their scuba page. I'm attaching a PDF of the manual I found.
:rofl: #-o :hah:

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CaptnJack
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by CaptnJack »

Yeah now that storage is stupid cheap don't put anything up you don't want to own forever.
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Sea Goat
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by Sea Goat »

This is a really interesting subject and I hope Doug or others will continue to comment as things unfold.

Lawsuits can be awesome catalysts for change in things like training standards. There's nothing like the cold reality of a death that is found by a jury to have been the result of crappy training to enlighten an instructor or shop regarding their misconceptions about what constitutes safe diving practices and encourage rapid change in the industry as a whole.

:)
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ArcticDiver
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by ArcticDiver »

Sea Goat wrote:This is a really interesting subject and I hope Doug or others will continue to comment as things unfold.

Lawsuits can be awesome catalysts for change in things like training standards. There's nothing like the cold reality of a death that is found by a jury to have been the result of crappy training to enlighten an instructor or shop regarding their misconceptions about what constitutes safe diving practices and encourage rapid change in the industry as a whole.

:)
Unfortunately true in not just the scuba industry. More in the same industry I remember a few years back a couple folks had to spend the night on a pole structure in Florida because their dive boat left them. The dive company lost the ensuing legal action. But, somehow the word didn't get around. A couple months later I asked the dive operator I was with, not the same company, how they knew everyone was back on board after a dive. They answered they Just Knew because the crew was on the ball. I referred them to what happened to the other company.

A week later there was a DAN Tag board on the side of the cabin, there was a roll call before and after every dive and the crew kept a count of cylinders at the beginning of the trip and after each dive. Sure enough it was about half way through the charter when counts didn't match and a diver who had great gas consumption was picked up, unharmed but saved from a long swim to shore.
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fmerkel
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by fmerkel »

On a sorta related topic that ties in...I was just on a civil case of Ponce vs. The Mountaineers. You can see my Facebook posting for more info:
[https://www.facebook.com/fritz.merkel.921?ref=tn_tnmn]
Not diving but the process, procedure, and issues are probably very similar.

Note-my trial lasted 2 weeks with 2 days of deliberation. I would not be surprised if this went 3-4 weeks, maybe more.
Last edited by fmerkel on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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renoun
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Re: Scuba di ver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by renoun »

Can you copy your BookOfFace posting to NWDC? Some of us don't play over there and I'm curious about your teaser post here. If not any hint of a cuort or docket number would be helpful.
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by fmerkel »

From Facebook as requested.

Finished up the trial yesterday so I can talk about it. Lots of relevancy to a topic I've had to deal with as Marker Buoy Dive Club (past) President. Liability is a issue that lurks in the background all the time. We don't like to think about it but it's there.

In this case a child was killed on the Mountaineers Snoqualmie campus in a sledding tragedy
[http://bellevue.patch.com/groups/police ... b337e8ac6d]
[Note-There are a BUNCH of errors in this news piece AND in ALL of them that I could find. Gives you a bit of perspective on how poor the reporting is on this kind of accident. Never trust the news media to get it right....never].

I watched the Mountaineers Exec. Director sit there for 2 weeks looking anxious, and watched the parents looking devastated. I saw lots of people cry on the stand and in the jury. There were no winners in this situation. It was awful. It was also fascinating.
The boy apparently jumped in the sled unexpectedly not far up the WALKING trail (I emphasize that as it was a BIG deal in the decision making), someone pulling the rope on the sled lost the grip with the unexpected load (there was some kind of lying going on about that part), he slid backwards out of control back down the slope into the road and was run over. The parents wanted 10 Million in damages+expenses and the child's potential lost wages for a normal lifespan.
[A decision like that would have bankrupted and ruined the Mountaineers. Yes, they tried to settle several times but the parents (lawyers?) wouldn't have it.]

To me it was a clear decision, Mountaineers were not negligent. They not only did a decent job in keeping the are safe but better than 'industry standard', another key concept. The opinion for most of us was the staging area was not dangerous, nor had there been any accidents in 30 years of recorded safety data.
When it came to deliberation 12 jurors initially split: 5-yes for negligence, 5-no, and 2-maybe. Most of the people on the negligence side had never been on snow other than their backyard, and felt that if a child dies SOMEONE needs to be doing SOMETHING better. They wanted berms, barricades, fences, signs......something. anything. Pointing out that most of the ski areas dump into the road or parking lots didn't seem to sink in for the 'yes' group.

The law/rules we were given provide clear instructions, but relevant terms that can be debated for HOURS......which we did. In the end we got enough of the yes to move over to no to finish the case but it took 2 days and down to the last 15 minutes of Friday with Monday looming over us.
In the end it seems like the decision making in a case like this was NOT about right and wrong, it was about jury selection and the effectiveness of the lawyers. This kind of explains the conflicting information about dive litigation cases. People in broad daylight on a nice day with lots of witnesses couldn't get it 'right'. Jurors listening to all the testimony are split right from the start. How are you going to figure out a diving accident in the murky depths with no one watching? Lawyers will be asking hard questions, one side trying to support, the other side trying to put it in the worst light possible.
Based on the judges debriefing afterward I was privileged to watch some of the best lawyers and trials of a case like this I'm ever likely to see. Both sides were very good. So, need a good lawyer? I now know 2.

The Mountaineers gets to continue their good work. The Ponce family has to figure out how to deal with this turn of events. It's a terrible situation to be in. I gives me pause to think how terrible it is to be on both sides of a case like this.
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BillZ
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by BillZ »

fmerkel wrote:From Facebook as requested.

Finished up the trial yesterday so I can talk about it. Lots of relevancy to a topic I've had to deal with as Marker Buoy Dive Club (past) President. Liability is a issue that lurks in the background all the time. We don't like to think about it but it's there.

..............
Wow - Sitting in on that case must have been absolutely gut wrenching. I also feel bad for the 54 year old driver who hit the boy. His life will be changed forever.
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by fmerkel »

Yes, nice guy. He was 2nd on the scene after the Mountaineers host and immediately started CPR, probably within a minute. Years later and he was crying on the stand during testimony. He's a skier, family spends time at the Pass, and probably can never drive by that place without thinking about it. Awful thing to happen to all concerned.
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rcontrera
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by rcontrera »

Just a quick note ... this is a VERY public and popular forum. ANY statement here that questions the quality, thoroughness or sufficiency of the instructor, store, training agency, no matter how innocent or well intended, is ammunition for the lawyers to use in court.

Maybe we should not be discussing this until it is done.

Just a thought.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by CaptnJack »

Ray do you know if this case still pending?
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fmerkel
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Re: Scuba diver "wrongful death" law suit in WA

Post by fmerkel »

Yes, the case is still pending.
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