Need ideas for dive boat!!! Help me before the wife changes

[nwdiver72]

Hello all,
I got permission from the wife to buy a boat and now I am looking for ideas on what a good one for me would be. I am looking at a starcraft islander 221v which is a rivet aluminum with a cudy, seems almost perfect other then being riveted. I am a bit on the big side of things with my doubles I probably weight in at 500 lbs. Need to be able to pull it with our 1/2 ton truck for now so seems like aluminum is the way to go. I have a budget of about $20k so unfortunately I will not be buying anything new. Any help is appreciated. This will be my first boat so.....


Thank you all,
James

[renoun]

James, it looks like you have been lurking for quite a while without introducing yourself. Why don't you tell us where you live, what kind of diving you enjoy, and how you think you would like to use your boat.

[boydski]

Need to be able to pull it with our 1/2 ton truck for now so seems like aluminum is the way to go. I have a budget of about $20k so unfortunately I will not be buying anything new. Any help is appreciated. This will be my first boat

Hi James,

Aluminum boats take the wear and tear caused by divers and dive gear much better than fiberglass, so make a good choice for a dive boat (but there are many negatives as well). I'm a fan of welded aluminum boats, many are built like tanks and would advise you to steer clear of riveted hulls. Over time the rivets will loosen or form galvanic corrosion cells (due to the different metal alloys) and begin to leak. This can lead to a maintenance headache in older boats.

A full size half ton truck should have no trouble towing a 22' aluminum boat. I would keep my eye on the Craigslist boat ads for a welded aluminum fishing boat with a small cabin (to keep warm in the winter). With our ailing economy, there are many such boats on the market at depressed pricing. Popular local brands are North River, Hewes, Wooldridge, Weldcraft, Boulton, etc. I would steer clear of boats like Raider which have a very narrow beam (~ 6.5') so lack the stability you'll need for heavy (doubles) dive gear.

Your ideal boat would have a welded aluminum, self bailing deck and a large sturdy swim platform. Wood decks rot and flex so are less attractive in a dive boat. Outboards provide more deck space for dive gear than an inboard jet, but both work well for diving.

Good luck in your boat search and welcome to Northwest Dive Club!

[LCF]

Aluminum is definitely lower care.

But, if you would be interested in a fiberglass boat, we have one that I was threatening to put up for sale at the end of the summer. It's a 21 foot Winner (built as a fishing boat in the midwest). It has a large, open aft area which works very well for tanks, and a cuddy cabin for dry stuff. It has a 175 hp Johnson outboard which is in excellent condition, and hydraulic steering. I put rubber mats in the sole. It has a Garmin GPS navigation system. There is nothing wrong with the boat except that it could use some new canvas, and it works very well for up to four divers. We just don't use it as much as we thought we would, because we are lazy.

Send me an e-mail if this sounds interesting. It would definitely be within your budget, and it's ready to go diving.

[Novice]

I would second the welded aluminum recommendation. I am a new diver but have been boating my whole life (I have a Hewescraft 18' Searunner). Particularly when buying used, aluminum is a safer bet. Fiberglass boats can have hidden issues that are hard to uncover during inspection (dry rot in structural members). Riveted boats leak as has been mentioned AND typically use much thinner gauge aluminum on the bottom. This will (or should) limit your beaching options. If you can't find a sucker to man your boat when you are diving it is nice to still be able beach and shore dive from otherwise inaccessible islands.

The only other advice I would give is not to get hung up on the cuddy cabin. In boats the size you are considering they are usually not tall enough to stand in. I don't know about you but I have never been cold enough to want to lay down and snuggle with most of my dive buddies. The boats that someone else mentioned, Northriver, Alumaweld, Hewescraft, Duckworth etc... all have a front area enclosed in canvas. You can heat this up with a "Big Buddy" style heater in the Winter. In the summer the greenhouse effect keeps it pretty warm. HAVE FUN. BOATS ARE GREAT.

[LCF]

The only other advice I would give is not to get hung up on the cuddy cabin. In boats the size you are considering they are usually not tall enough to stand in. I don't know about you but I have never been cold enough to want to lay down and snuggle with most of my dive buddies. The boats that someone else mentioned, Northriver, Alumaweld, Hewescraft, Duckworth etc... all have a front area enclosed in canvas. You can heat this up with a "Big Buddy" style heater in the Winter. In the summer the greenhouse effect keeps it pretty warm.

Having gone with the cuddy cabin, I totally agree with this. There are more efficient ways to use the space.

We didn't buy an aluminum boat because we couldn't find any that fit our budget. I hope you have better luck!

[nwdiver72]

hello all,
I live down in Tacoma area. I enjoy almost any kind of diving. We want the boat for some short camping trips, pulling a tube around the lake and the number one reason for me is Diving of course. Just how bad are the rivet aluminum boats? I have been doing a bit of research on the Starcraft Islander and they seem to have a big following and be well made. My first choice would of course be a welded boat but.....Money is an issue. Not seeing any salt water welded boats for under $30k and $45k for one with the cover.

I unfortunately know very little about boats so info or advice is very appreciated. If any one has any recommended models please post the info.


Thanks all,
James

[boydski]

Money is an issue. Not seeing any salt water welded boats for under $30k and $45k for one with the cover.

Hi James,

There is an Almar and a couple of Duckworth boats in your price range listed on Craigslist right now. Keep looking and there will be others.

Any boat that you buy is always a compromise on what you want to do with the boat. The best "Dive Boat" is usually not the best one for pulling a tube or camping. The best boat for tubing (inboard ski boat) usually makes a terrible dive boat, etc. You'll have to balance the mixed use with the features that you want in the boat. Look for boats with an 8 - 8.5' width (beam) as they are the most stable and should be able to easily haul a lot of dive gear. Also look for a sturdy, welded swim platform that you can put a serious dive ladder on. Climbing up a cheesy ladder while wearing doubles is not a lot of fun. You may not be able to find a welded boat with a hard top in your price range, but even a windshield and canvas will help immensely in the winter.

As for riveted boats, I would not buy one. I've owned dozens of boats (and driven them professionally) for 40+ years and have just seen too many problem boats with rivets. As Novice mentions above, the welded boats are usually made of much thicker aluminum. My boat has 1/4" fully welded aluminum plate on the hull. Why is this important? I hit a log so hard up in the Straits a few weeks ago that it broke the log into two pieces. When I put the boat up on the trailer, I could not even see any sign of the log strike on the hull. As mentioned before, most welded boats are built like tanks.

Also, as a new boat owner, you may not realize that boats generally require a lot more maintenance than a car, even though they are driven a lot less. For a $20K boat, most owners would plan on a 10% annual maintenance cost ( ~ $2000). If you do wind up purchasing a riveted boat, plan on significantly higher maintenance costs and spending a lot more time chasing and sealing leaks.

Good luck with your boat search,

[CaptnJack]

Just say no to rivets. They are ok in lightweight fishing boats but load it up with gear and the thinner gauge aluminum will flex like mad in a sea and those rivets will be loose in no time. You are better off with fiberglass if you can't afford welded ali.

Boats are not for lazy divers unless you have tons of money to throw at someone else's labor rate.

[Nwbrewer]

Just say no to rivets. They are ok in lightweight fishing boats but load it up with gear and the thinner gauge aluminum will flex like mad in a sea and those rivets will be loose in no time. You are better off with fiberglass if you can't afford welded ali.

I spend a lot of time dealing with large riveted aluminum structure. It will flex, it will leak. When they make it, it's already cracked, it's just a question of how fast the cracks will grow. Go welded or go glass.

Boats are not for lazy divers unless you have tons of money to throw at someone else's labor rate.

Scooters however.....

[Mattleycrue76]

Scott and Richard know their stuff and their advice is sound. If you can afford welded aluminum it's hard to beat. OTOH if you need/want a cabin it could be tough in that price range. If it were my 20k I'd be looking at something similar to this
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/2472587152.html

Great for camping, diving, family stuff etc. Aluminum is awesome, but I don't really see a big issue with fiberglass hulls if they're in good shape. Alot of people prefer outboard motors on boats like this. Personally I wouldn't mind a sterndrive if it's in good shape. If you don't know much about boats you'll want to bring someone with you who does or have a marine mechanic check out your purchase beforehand.

[Mattleycrue76]

Or maybe something along the lines of this:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/2473215363.html

[Dusty2]

If your on a budget AND want an all around boat I'd seriously look at something like that 25' wellcraft. 20' is way to small for a camp rig and also for diving. you want something that has a large rear staging area for diving and if your thinking camping anything smaller than 25' is just too cramped for a family outing.

While aluminum is ideal for diving they don't tend to be good family weekender boats unless you get a pretty large boat and your talking serious financial damage for something like that. You will get far more bang for your buck with a used fiberglass boat. And there will be allot more to chose from not to mention they will be allot lighter to tow with that 1/2 ton. just remember that large open rear deck area I mentioned. Allot of the mini cruisers and almost all runabouts have no usable rear deck area. You need allot of space to get 4 divers and their equipment together and be able to stage from.

[CaptnJack]

Actually the Ali is lighter than fiberglass. I would look into what you can realistically tow first. Which doesn't mean right up to whatever Ford or Chevy, Toyota says. There has been a serious "tow capacity" creep over the years and I would not be surprised if its "rated" 8,000lbs or something rediculous like that. And don't forget dive gear in the back cuts into weight capacity, you need to go up hills at more than a crawl.

Once you have an idea of what you can haul then look for boat/trailer combos in that size/weigh range.

[boydski]

I'm with Richard (Jack) on this one. One of the main advantages a fiberglass hull has is a softer, quieter ride which they accomplish primarily because they weigh signficantly more than the same size/type of aluminum hull. One of the big benefits of a welded aluminum hull is that it weighs a lot less than its fiberglass cousin, so tows much easier and gets much better fuel ecomony. The down-side is a much harsher ride. ( I think most aluminum jet sleds should be named "Preparation-H", since they pound them right out of you)!

Towing any boat/trailer combination that weighs over 5,000 lbs requires a Class IV hitch. Most half-ton trucks come with a Class III hitch that is rated at 3,500 lbs (some are 5,000). Legally and safely towing more than 5,000 lbs with a typical half-ton will require the installation of a Weight-Distribution Hitch (which typically do not work very well with boat trailer surge brakes).

I towed 7,000 lbs for years with a half-ton truck, but it took a LOT of $$ and work to get the truck safe to tow that much weight (even if Chevy rated it for 7,700 lbs) and it never was a very comfortable tow.

Most of the guys that you see towing the large fiberglass Trophy's down the road with a half-ton would be shocked at how much their boat/trailer weighs if they took them over a scale. Load them up with Dive/Fishing gear, gas, coolers and added weight due to water soaked foam/stringers and they easily weigh 1000 lbs more than advertised.

That said, there's nothing wrong with fiberglass boats. My lake boat is fiberglass (MasterCraft 205) and there are a lot of good fiberglass boats out there that would make great dive boats. Just pay special attention to the weight as you start looking over 22' or so.

Good Luck,

[nwdiver72]

Thanks for all the info everyone I really appreciate it. The Wellcraft looks like a nice boat but pretty sure it would be to heavy to tow with our Titan. Please keep up the links it helps me figure out what I should be looking for. I really want the Aluminum boat if I can pull it off. I used to dive with a friend off of a Zodiac and loved being able to beach it.


Thanks all,
James

[CaptnJack]

OTOH if you need/want a cabin it could be tough in that price range. If it were my 20k I'd be looking at something similar to this
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/2472587152.html.

The "problem" with something like this 25' Wellcraft is weight. Just a full tank of fuel alone is already 600+ lbs. I don't think there are many 1/2 tons capable of pulling this boat. You'd need a bigger truck to keep from having the tail wag the dog.

Its also kept in a marina and has a stern drive (bad combo) - probably why its so cheap too. Its probably in the marina because its over the legal tow width of 8.5ft so it needs permits to tow it. Not a huge deal except in winter when you can't legally tow it after dark (although double check this).

The Bayliner 21 is much more plausible, although in fiberglass with a 1/2 ton pickup you really should be thinking ~19ft-ish (but check the weight and add some for all the extras, including tanks)

I would think hard about inflatables. Not great camping boats, but haul alot of divers/tanks easily. WAY more load capacity than a comparable hard boat. I have had >1200lbs of gear in mine and planes with only 60hp which is mind boggling (to me). Mine is welded ali and in your price range, although its only 16ft. It does fit in my garage which is a huge plus.

[CaptnJack]

Which Titan (style and year) do you have? Towing seems to vary between 7,000 vs 9000lb capacity at least for 2011 models. I would start with how much you can realistically pull and back up to what works from there.

[nwdiver72]

Hey all,
how does this look for diving off of http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/boa/2462104737.html How difficult is it to modify to have the offshore bracket? Also it looks like it is a pretty shallow Vee so is it a salt water boat or a lake boat?
This one looks closer to what I want but a bit more expensive http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/2467452546.html
For the camping trips they would probably just be the wife and I staying on the boat and sending the kids onshore with a tent. I haven't done it before so no real idea of how well it works. Wife used to live on a sail boat and has some great stories of being in the San Juans and the small islands in the south sound.


Thanks,
James

[nwdiver72]

We have a 2007 Titan and I believe that the tow capacity is 7700 lbs but I wouldn't want to try it. From what I understand they only have a Dana 44 rear end and while that's a good front end for my old bronco. I wouldn't care to trust it with major weight.


James

[Mattleycrue76]

If you're willing to ditch the cabin, considering your criteria, those two boats look like good choices. The two stroke evinrude on the first one is probably an ok motor but you'll likely find yourself lusting after the four strokes. And of course that's where the big $$ come into play. A 150 HP Yamaha Four Stroke for instance, would set you back about 12k if purchased new. Also, remember to leave a little room in the budget for updating electronics. A lot of boats tout everything from fishfinder/chartplotters to radar but in alot of cases it's pretty outdated. If your boat of choice has old equipment, the benefit of upgrading will be noticable. I'm in the market for a new chartplotter/fishfinder right now and am finding that you can get something good for about $500- 600 but you can easily spend 2-3 k on the really fun toys. Whatever you end up getting I hope I get a chance to see it a a local dive site some time.

[pensacoladiver]

That 25 foot Wellcraft is my boat. Well, not mine, but I have the same type except it is 1987 model with an outboard. The deck space is awesome, excpet you will want to lose those 2 rear chairs if you want to make it a dive boat.

It is heavy. Mine weighs in at approx 8000 lbs. I used to tow it everywhere including out to Neah Bay through the mountains with a Chevy 1500 2 wheel drive and no positraction. Just because I did it though does not mean I recommend it. I now have a Dodge 2500, 4 wheel drive.

Can't say I like the I/O set up on that one. I prefer pure outboard. But IMHO, the Wellcraft is a great boat.

[Mattleycrue76]

That 25 foot Wellcraft is my boat. Well, not mine, but I have the same type except it is 1987 model with an outboard.

That's what I was thinking of when I saw it. Especially on fishing type boats people seem to gravitate toward the outboard versions. Can't say that I completely understand why.

[CaptnJack]

Hey all,
how does this look for diving off of http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/boa/2462104737.html How difficult is it to modify to have the offshore bracket? Also it looks like it is a pretty shallow Vee so is it a salt water boat or a lake boat?
This one looks closer to what I want but a bit more expensive http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/2467452546.html
For the camping trips they would probably just be the wife and I staying on the boat and sending the kids onshore with a tent. I haven't done it before so no real idea of how well it works. Wife used to live on a sail boat and has some great stories of being in the San Juans and the small islands in the south sound.


Thanks,
James

The Duckworth's would work just not very rough water. The shallow V is for rivers and will pound like crazy once in even a 2ft sea. The shallow V will plane more weight with less HP though so its a trade off. The 2 stoke is old and will be a smelly gas pig. The 18fter is quite overpriced IMO. The 20fter is a less so depending on condition.

That's what I was thinking of when I saw it. Especially on fishing type boats people seem to gravitate toward the outboard versions. Can't say that I completely understand why.

Deck space, the "in" of the I/O hogs alot of floor space and doesn't make a very good tank bench as the covers aren't built study enough.

[Mattleycrue76]

Deck space, the "in" of the I/O hogs alot of floor space and doesn't make a very good tank bench as the covers aren't built study enough.

Def. true on the smaller ones. Seems like on the bigger hulls thay manage to get the motor below deck for the most part. I've always envisioned putting a custom welded aluminum "table" with a quick realease over the motor cover. The legs would take the weight off the cover. It would make a great gear rack and would enable getting geared up while standing.