NW Dive Sites; Better or Worse over time?

[Gooch]

I know thus question has probably been asked before on here but I couldn't find it. Are there folks on here that have been diving the northwest for a long time and still do that have seen a change for better or worse in the general dive conditions?

I haven't dove here long enough to say but my general feeling is that it might be somewhat better with better pollution and fishing regulations vs the past but is is also true that there are just more folks here now and more folks diving.

[ljjames]

a bit of both.

i think there is more trash and garbage.... the little stuff which comes with increased population. More plastic bottles, more straws, coffee cup and cold cup lids, plastic garbage bags, more little trash showing up at the less visited sites.

the blue (or otherwise) tape that people use to mark their tanks is a personal pet peeve of mine tho... and other little diver trash.... receipts from dive shops, dead o rings, zip tie tails, hair bands, broken mask straps, etc... there is absolutely no reason to be finding that kind of stuff on our beaches or parking lots near dive sites or otherwise.

i think some sites have been improved by increased traffic... better access, new fishing reefs, beach clean ups, UW clean ups.

[60south]

I can only speak to Pt. Hudson (Port Townsend) and Rockaway (Norrander's reef), both sites where I've dove enough to observe the changes over the years. Dusty would probably have more nuanced observations about PT.

The abundance of large invertebrates varies dramatically from year to year. For instance, some years are 'good octopus' years. I don't know what causes this variation.

The sites are often fished-out. You can see the evidence -- lots of snagged lures and no fish. Left alone, a few fish eventually come back. The rockfish have almost disappeared entirely at Norrander's, where I used to see hundreds on every dive.

I haven't seen more or less pollution.

Overall I'd say things are slowly getting better, except for the fish.

[fmerkel]

Our club had a presentation by Bill High, an old timer in the area. He showed us pictures of free diving spearfishing contests done in Commencement Bay in the 50's, I think. They used a specially designed surfboard contraption with a fish holding well. It was a 1 hour contest for most fish, and largest fish. Free diving they could get dozens and dozens of fish, including adult Yellow Eye that were huge in only an hour.
Since RF are now closed there seems to be a very slow return. But with the maturation rate so slow and the continuing pressures from a myriad of other areas this recovery is precarious.

Some of the above water sites have improved with better services. Parking, like all recreational endeavors it seems, continues to deteriorate with more population. For a state with one of the longest coastlines in the nation we have pathetic public access.

If you look at the Hood Canal issue with O2 deprivation over the last couple decades it looks pretty grim to me. Essentially nothing is being done.

[CaptnJack]

I can't think of a single site where there are noticably more fish than when I started diving in 1994. Edmonds is an exception as it is basically the same. The other sites have fewer fish and the remaining ones are smaller.

[LCF]

I haven't been diving all that long (only six years) but the biggest thing that has struck me regarding dive sites is that every year we have fewer OF them. Access gets closed, or structures are pulled out, and what used to be a dive site is either inaccessible or has become just a silt plain.

[60south]

... what used to be a dive site is either inaccessible or has become just a silt plain.

Yes, I agree.

Old pilings, for instance, made for good diving, despite the ecological impacts of the creosote. I am not against taking the pilings out; perhaps this is a good thing. But I am definitely in favor of replacing them with artificial reefs for breeding habitat and (selfishly) good diving sites. I believe that that both objectives are compatible and synergistic (a $2 word : )

Gooch -- good topic!

[Gooch]

I worked with some folks who have dove here years and years ago and they maintained that it was worse as time went on- primarily from overfishing; that is consistent with the WFW putting in rockpiles to create more habitat for fish. I think most folks aren't aware of the super-long cycle times for many rockfish to mature and reproduce. I really would like to know more about the people who may have actually seen the change over time. The stuff I see when I dive is beautiful but I think it's always helpful to try to guage progress or regression. The planet in general has taken a turn for the better overall; look at how we no longer fish all the sturgeon until they vanish from the Columbia- they came close to wiping them out but put the brakes on in time. We no longer view the worlds resources as inexhaustible. But another aspect of that is the sheer amount of folks applying pressure to the system. The two dive charter captains I know have both said that reef systems where collecting has been banned have shown strong signs of coming back and doing so relatively quickly.

[CaptnJack]

The two dive charter captains I know have both said that reef systems where collecting has been banned have shown strong signs of coming back and doing so relatively quickly.

A couple of species are doing ok. Lings, brown and black rockfish depending on location for instance. They are all filling niches left by the diversity which should be there and is gone. But for instance, we have less eelgrass than ever before, more shoreline armoring than ever, and it will be hundreds of years before yelloweye populations can recover if ever.

[ljjames]

I can't think of a single site where there are noticably more fish than when I started diving in 1994. Edmonds is an exception as it is basically the same. The other sites have fewer fish and the remaining ones are smaller.

that is my perception as well.

shrinking Eel grass habitat is very concerning though, being that it is the nursery for so many critters, correct?

[John Rawlings]

I started diving in the Sound back in 1976, taking up underwater photography in 1977. My impression is that there are far fewer fish to be found now than back then. Even way back then I had "old-timers" tell me that I had missed the "glory days". Plus, as has already been mentioned, there are fewer dive sites available now.

[mkmc]

Here is the 2007 Puget Sound Update released by the WDFW.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/pub.php?id=01051

Some of your concerns are validated by this report.

shrinking Eel grass habitat is very concerning though, being that it is the nursery for so many critters, correct?

See page 9 specifically:

http://www.pugetsoundnearshore.org/tech ... s/kelp.pdf

[oldsalt]

I have been diving and sailing NW waters for over 50 years. It amuses me to hear a diver with 3 or 4 years experience or someone who dives 5 times a year to make pronouncements regarding the trends in our marine environment. Some things seem really apparent to me. Rockfish have diminished over the long term (I'm one of those old timers that used to free dive for them.), but I think there has been rebound lately. This particularly seems the case with black rockfish, which I see in fair numbers now after they virtually disappeared for awhile. This also seems true with lingcod. We went for a period when sighting a ling was a novelty, now I see them on virtually every dive. One thing that has increased in my lifetime is marine mammals. Prior to the Marine Mammal Protection Act, Puget Sound seals and sea lions numbered in the hundreds, now they are in the tens of thousands. This may be part of the reason we see fewer fish. I see grey whales every spring and I don't remember any my first 20 years or so. We all know our resident Orca are in peril. The capture of several of in the 70's impacted them greatly. They are probably doomed because of the small size of the remaining genetic pool. We still have healthy migrant orca populations passing through. 60south commented on year to year variability. So true. I have seen variation driven by tides. Animals present at high tide, depart at low tide. We also deal with the El Nino/La Nina cycle which is huge in its effects. We have made progress with many species, and have completely messed up others, e.g. salmon. While I am not sanguine, neither am I despairing. I don't know what I'm going to see when I dive. That is one reason I still dive.
-Curt

[Gdog]

Ok on a side issue, or allowing me to rabbit trail here, I am struggling to grasp the pulling of the creosote pilings. As observed at both Titlow, and the former pilings at Harpers Ferry, the aquatic life seems to thrive on and around these pilings. Im sure that creosote may not be the best thing to have in the seawater, but the simple fact is that life abounds on them. So why pull them for the sake of the sealife? Been to Harper's Ferry post pilings? Much less life there. Someone explain the long term effects of this to me???!!

[Grateful Diver]

Ok on a side issue, or allowing me to rabbit trail here, I am struggling to grasp the pulling of the creosote pilings. As observed at both Titlow, and the former pilings at Harpers Ferry, the aquatic life seems to thrive on and around these pilings. Im sure that creosote may not be the best thing to have in the seawater, but the simple fact is that life abounds on them. So why pull them for the sake of the sealife? Been to Harper's Ferry post pilings? Much less life there. Someone explain the long term effects of this to me???!!

Money ... I am convinced that the main reason the pilings at Edmonds oil dock got pulled out is because it impacted the view of those expensive townhomes on top of the hill. I don't think creosote was as big an issue as they said it was for two reasons ...

1. The pilings had been in the water for decades, and it would stand to reason that any creosote that was going to leach had already done so. Disturbing them only increases the amount of new creosote released in the water.

2. Many were simply cut off a few feet above the bottom, and are still there. If they're so concerned about creosote, why leave "stumps" down there with newly-exposed areas that can only release more.

What they did accomplish was to get an "ugly" structure out of sight of the potential buyers for the new development ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nwbrewer]

1. The pilings had been in the water for decades, and it would stand to reason that any creosote that was going to leach had already done so. Disturbing them only increases the amount of new creosote released in the water.

I find reason and politics are most often mutually exclusive.

I think $$ may have had something to so with the Edmond Oil Dock getting bumped up the list to get ripped out, but I think the larger decision to remove the pilings is as simple as they've decided Creosote is bad, and therefore must be removed from the sound. It's about looking like your doing the right thing, not actually doing it. Politics 101.

[dwashbur]

I can't think of a single site where there are noticably more fish than when I started diving in 1994. Edmonds is an exception as it is basically the same. The other sites have fewer fish and the remaining ones are smaller.

that is my perception as well.

shrinking Eel grass habitat is very concerning though, being that it is the nursery for so many critters, correct?

What would you and others say is the primary cause of shrinking eelgrass habitat? I know that godawful storm pretty well wiped out most of the eelgrass at Redondo; is that the biggest cause in other places? Or is there something that people are doing that harms it? Just wondering.

[Grateful Diver]

I can't think of a single site where there are noticably more fish than when I started diving in 1994. Edmonds is an exception as it is basically the same. The other sites have fewer fish and the remaining ones are smaller.

that is my perception as well.

shrinking Eel grass habitat is very concerning though, being that it is the nursery for so many critters, correct?

What would you and others say is the primary cause of shrinking eelgrass habitat? I know that godawful storm pretty well wiped out most of the eelgrass at Redondo; is that the biggest cause in other places? Or is there something that people are doing that harms it? Just wondering.

When a storm takes out eelgrass, it grows back ... Redondo's eelgrass is back as healthy as it was a year ago ... before the storm ripped most of it out.

What damages eelgrass more long-term is development, erosion, stormwater runoff and other sources of pollution. These are almost exclusively human-induced causes that disrupt the bottom, change the composition of water and soil that the eelgrass grows in, and remain in effect for long enough periods of time that they prevent the recovery of the eelgrass beds.

.. Bob (Grateful Diver)

[CaptnJack]

What would you and others say is the primary cause of shrinking eelgrass habitat? I know that godawful storm pretty well wiped out most of the eelgrass at Redondo; is that the biggest cause in other places? Or is there something that people are doing that harms it? Just wondering.

Altering sediment transport with bulkheads. Eroding beaches, cliffs etc places are supposed to erode, they feed depositional zones. When you bulkhead or armor areas like this, you cut off the supply of sediment to the adjacent beaches and they gradually end up sediment starved and gravelly. People don't realize how much sediment is supposed to naturally move laterally from source areas to sink areas. The second big eelgrass influence is boat anchoring ripping it up/out faster than it can grow back. Third probably stormwater pollution, plants in general don't like stuff like zinc and stormwater has alot of dissolved zinc..

[Greg Jensen]

As a professional biologist and a local diver since 1974, I just wanted to add my 2 cents. There were quite a few black rockfish around when I started diving, but they seemed to disappear rather suddenly and many years (actually a couple decades) went by when I'd see maybe one per dive in areas that are now full of them. The increase in the past 5 years or so has been remarkable. Ling cod have also increased recently, and true cod (which seemed to disappear entirely) are sloooowly starting to show up again.

My first dive at Sund Rock was in 1990, and it was one of the most boring dives I've done. No fish at all except for some blackeye gobies. Now it sometimes feels like swimming in the dome at the Aquarium. In hindsight I wish I'd dove it more often over the years- did I just hit it on a particularly bad day?- or was it really that barren back then? On the other hand I had just the opposite experience with Norranders over a much, much shorter time scale. My first dive there was absolutely wonderful, with lots of rockfish and breeding lingcod. We went back a short time later and every large fish was gone, the lingcod eggs unguarded. Since then there's been some recovery, but nothing even remotely close to what it was on that first dive. No idea what happened.

That's why I really encourage everyone to get involved in REEF surveys. It's not a perfect system, but it will provide an invaluable time series that shows trends our own individual "snapshot" views of different sites could never reveal.

[Tom Nic]

That's why I really encourage everyone to get involved in REEF surveys. It's not a perfect system, but it will provide an invaluable time series that shows trends our own individual "snapshot" views of different sites could never reveal.

+1 on the REEF surveys.

Doing surveys contributes to real data over time that can be looked at and measured.

Not perfect, of course, but certainly better than my vague memories of a particular day - plus they're easy and fun!

Check out http://www.reef.org/resources/webinars#FishinarArchives if you haven't already

[Gill Envy]

1. The pilings had been in the water for decades, and it would stand to reason that any creosote that was going to leach had already done so. Disturbing them only increases the amount of new creosote released in the water.

I find reason and politics are most often mutually exclusive.

I think $$ may have had something to so with the Edmond Oil Dock getting bumped up the list to get ripped out, but I think the larger decision to remove the pilings is as simple as they've decided Creosote is bad, and therefore must be removed from the sound. It's about looking like your doing the right thing, not actually doing it. Politics 101.

We really missed an opportunity with the Oil dock by lack of involvement of the dive community in the DOT hearings that happen every year. The DOT considers even relatively low key announcements at these meetings to suffice for sufficient public notice/disclosure. The Oil dock removal was kept low key in this way to avoid major public outcry, IMHO.

I got involved and outspoken against the removal of the oil dock pilings late in the game but I did call around and was amazed at what I found. I was surprised at how candid some people were with me over the phone, people directly involved in the project. I was told that the reason the oil dock was removed was that the city of Edmonds and DOT/state ferry system found it mutually beneficial ($$$). By paying to have the pilings removed the state ferry system received substantial environmental remediation credits, which are becoming hard to come by, credits that are essentially offsets to future projects that cause environmental damage. The removal of the oil dock will make acquiring permits for future ferry projects easier. The city of Edmonds saw an opportunity to have an aging structure that was in disrepair removed at the expense of the tax payer. In return, the city of Edmonds weaved any serious environmental impact study requirements for the DOT. The environmental impact study that was done was performed from the shore at low tide… not a single dive was performed. With little time to spare, I went on a photo blitze on a rebreather and took lots of photos of the critters there and presenting them to the city council and pressed them to put a halt on the removal till a true environmental impact study was done... one city council member did come up to me after the presentation and told me that if he had any idea how much life was there he would have fought the project and instead pushed to have the industrial waste removed and the pilings left behind.

Christine Gregoire has supported the initiative to remove creosote pilings throughout the sound and these efforts stem from that as well. Studies suggest that polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) continue to be exuded from pilings almost indefinitely. My research suggested though that it's mainly only accumulates in strong enough concentrations to effect fish eggs on the pilings (the main thing that seem to be effected by the creosote) in areas of low current. It was my conclusion that the major tidal exchange that occurred around the Edmonds pilings likely rendered their negative impact insignificant compared to the destruction of sea life caused by removing the pilings. In my protest of the removal, I suggested that they actually test the pilings and the sediment around the pilings to see if levels of PAH were indeed high enough to be of concern.

A friend was on the crew that was allowed to harvest critters for a local aquarium. The city greenwashed the project by claiming that the critters were being moved to an aquarium… my friend said that less than 1% of the critters were saved. Tens of thousands of marine creatures died during the removal of the pilings.

... and we lost a prime dive site, it really is a shame.

The photos presented to the City Council are here: https://picasaweb.google.com/george.whi ... 12208307PM

I was so incensed by the dock removal that I taught myself how to edit and make a video to help raise awareness. my first ever video can be found here: http://vimeo.com/2555390

I've been diving in WA waters since 95 and have seen ups and downs with a trend in the downward direction... I think we've lost touch with what a truly thriving ecosystem looks like, even though magical beauty can still be found on nearly every dive.

[Gooch]

Thank you all for your thoughtful discussion. The talk from people that have been here diving long term more or less confirms what I already suspected: diving was a lot-lot-lot better in the "hey days" (probably before most of us even knew about scuba)- think about Jacques Cousteau finding nice dive sites in the region and other places that were seen for the first time. But then there were the worse days of overfishing and pollution and general overuse. But we all can see some resurgence of life from protected areas and there is some hope for restoration of habitat to help bring back species.

I didn't know the saga of the Edmonds oil dock- thanks Gill Envy for that somber story. I think instances like that are examples of why we, as divers and lovers of nature, should be active in our communities and political scenes to make sure our interests in regards to diving are at least examined and properly represented when decisions are rendered. I think this applies to keeping access to dives sites open, protecting and improving current dive sites, pushing our elected officials to make decisions that will protect and enhance our wildlife and generally making our voices heard- Gill Envy showing the decision makers in the oil dock case that video of what the work on the oil docks would do is a perfect example of taking action to try to educate folks so they can see what we do. It is fortunate that most divers I have met are thoughtful, intelligent and forward thinking people (way more than the cross cut of society) that seem to often have similar views in regards to things like this.

[BASSMAN]

I too have only been diving for a little over 6 years. One thing I noticed was when I first started diving is, I kept hearing all these reports and saw video and pics of 6 Gill sharks. In the last two years, there has been very few reports of 6 Gill sightings. Where did they go? For the record, I dive almost every week and I have not a 6 Gill yet! :angry: Those of you who have, are very lucky divers! I wonder if Puget Sound is as poulluted as much as I think it is. And is that impacting our dive sites. Seeing that storm drain out flow, at Redondo, is a real eye opener on some days!

This year, seems to be the year of the Juvinile, Wolf EEl's!

Has anyone dove Saltwater Park lately?

[Jeff Pack]

Is there a good dive there?