Anti-spearos, why? NHZ please.

[Fishstiq]

No, I'm not asking why people don't like Spatty. That's painfully obvious!


I'm just curious, for those who are against spearfishing, why do you think/feel that way? I won't argue any perspective that is given, I just really don't understand why someone would be against this type of harvest.



Point: I understand if people don't like it if/when spearfishers take fish from popular sites. I think getting in the water with a speargun at cove 2 would be frowned upon by both camps. I'm just asking as a general rule why people who are against the practice feel the way they do.

[citycatred]

No, I'm not asking why people don't like Spatty. That's painfully obvious!


I'm just curious, for those who are against spearfishing, why do you think/feel that way? I won't argue any perspective that is given, I just really don't understand why someone would be against this type of harvest.



Point: I understand if people don't like it if/when spearfishers take fish from popular sites. I think getting in the water with a speargun at cove 2 would be frowned upon by both camps. I'm just asking as a general rule why people who are against the practice feel the way they do.

IMO...I find it somewhat unfair to the fish. My main experience with spear fishermen happened on a boat dive down in California. We went on a kelp dive where most of the fish seemed to be extremely comfortable with divers and would pretty much come right up to you. The sheepshead would follow you around like a pet dog would. I guess when the spear fishermen came up with a sheepshead I just saw it as shooting the family dog...the fish pretty much came up to him expecting him to be like any other diver who would stop, take a picture, or just stare at it...instead he shot it when it was right there. I'm not totally against spearfish, but I'd prefer you do it while free diving (Spearfishing using SCUBA is illegal in Mexico, and also Australia I believe).

[spatman]

No, I'm not asking why people don't like Spatty. That's painfully obvious!

:angry:

[Bric Martin]

You stole my answer.

I have no problem with legal and responsible fishing. With that said, I have found spears on 2 separate dives at Flagpole in the Hoodscanal and that pisses me off :angry:. Even if it were legal, there are certain dive sites that should be off limits to spearos.

And just for the record, I like Spatty!

[WylerBear]

Vegan. Anti-killing.

[airsix]

Georgia has the only opposition answer I can really respect, and respect it I do. A lot. I respect anyone who thinks meat is wrong and doesn't partake. I think it's a noble life choice. I also respect omnivores who harvest strictly for personal consumption. I don't think it is right to condemn them. Who I do not respect is the hypocrite who eats meat but condemns the hunter.

I think Mark Zuckerberg (sp?) is a creep, but I was impressed when I read his explanation of why he raises animals on his ranch and harvests them himself. He said he doesn't like killing. He said he does it because if someone is going to consume an animal they should show it the respect of facing it personally and own up to the reality that a life was taken.

I think as a species we would consume much less meat if we weren't so disconnected from the source. By that I mean we've lost respect for animal life by hiding the ugly truth of the process that lead to that cellophane covered package in the grocery store. The hunter at least acknowledes where his food came from, and contrary to the bloodthirsty stereotype, the typical hunter has a deep reverence for the life given to sustain his own.

[ktb]

Thank you Ben!

<standing on soapbox>
I personally think spear-fishermen (and women)--just like any other wild-game hunters--are getting their dinner in an honest, straight-forward manner. I can respect anyone who goes mano-a-mano with an animal and then kills it for food. That is part of nature. (Although I also respect those folks who don't want to kill any animal. More bacon for me!)

HOWEVER, I do not in any way condone people who kill animals for sport or partial use of their body for non-food purposes (aka shark finning). I'm also not a fan of big-business animal killing that is currently the "norm" in our society and wish it was easier to obtain meat from a local farm than an anonymous package of beef on a slab of foam and wrapped in plastic that I *hope* came from a cow. But I digress . . .

If you spear and eat . . . go for it. But if you spear for fun and leave the carcass, I'll be the first in line to string you up on a line myself.
<stepping down>

[Grateful Diver]

I'm not against spearfishing at all ... reduces bycatch, and that's a good thing.

On the other hand, there've been a couple times when I thought the spearos weren't using their head. One at Langley tire reef and another at Possession Pt. Ferry.

At Langley my objection wasn't so much that it's a popular dive site as that these guys were shooting fish in the vicinity of recreational divers ... a missed shot could make for a really bad day. The PPF objection had to do with a guy who swam up and shot a cabezon on eggs ... while I was trying to take a picture of it ... Geez ... find one that's not on eggs, at least.

Like any endeavor, you get responsible spearos, irresponsible ones, skilled ones, unskilled ones, smart ones ... er ... not smart ones ... etc. Gotta judge each as an individual ... not as a group.

Anytime you start stereotyping people, you're gonna misjudge most of 'em ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[spatman]

No, I'm not asking why people don't like Spatty. That's painfully obvious!

:angry:

Just for the record, I posted that angry smiley in jest. I can take a good-natured ribbing, even from people like Joe.


Regarding Joe's question:

I completely agree with Ben that we have become very disconnected from our food sources, and without getting mired in Slow Food ideology, I try to consume local fresh food as much as possible. I respect the animals I eat, trying to waste none, and being entirely grateful for the sustenance. As long as the spearo respects the life he/she has taken and does it in a responsible manner for food and not trophy sport, I have no problem with spear-fishing.

However, I do sympathize with and understand divers who get upset by it. Many divers took up scuba as a form of relaxation and escape and as a way to enjoy parts of nature we rarely get to see otherwise. Divers often personify the creatures they see, develop bonds with or understanding of certain species, and often assume roles of some type of stewardship over these animals and/or their environs. So when these divers either witness or hear of harvesting of animals from or near their favorites places to dive, it's not surprising feelings of violation or trespass arise.

[airsix]

Kelly and Bob, thanks for adding some important points I left out. I don't agree at all with trophy hunting for the sake of the trophy, and while I'm not anti-hunting in general I'm definitely against BAD hunting. I'm not an active hunter, but I have hunted and been around it enough to see it is even more divisive and segregated than diving by a long shot. There are hunters who leave no trace, campaign tirelessly for conservation issues, consume as much of their take as possible, are selective in what is taken, and maintain a high ethical standard at all times. Likewise there are mouth breathing morons that road hunt from a truck, shoot at anything that moves, waste their take, and leave a trail of trash in their wake. Unfortunately their high profile example colors public opinion to a much greater degree than the actions of those who are doing it right (because they come and go silently without a trace and do it far away from any non-hunting public).

Regarding the moron who shot a Cabby on eggs... What a tool. Trust me, ethical hunters want guys like that out of business even more than you do.

[Gill Envy]

I'm not against spear fishing, I think it's pathetic that we have so poorly managed the fisheries and the ecosystem that it's so darn hard to find a vibrant place to go and hunt where I don't feel like I'm taking some of the last of something.

I don't spear fish because it's my personal observation from diving up and down the west coast and around the world that the fish are in such decline compared to original stocks that it's best to give them a chance to repopulate. Even though Spear fishing has a miniscule impact compared to so many other things, it's just hard for me to have fun doing it given the state of things. When I hear that just 50-60 years ago there were GPO's being hauled in that were nearly 500 lbs and 150 lb salmon, I can't help but imagine that in order for critters to get that large, the ecosystem that supported them must have been many times more abundant. I can't help but think that what we are looking at at most dives sites is a fraction of what used to be there. Can I prove that, do I have the pictures, the studies etc, no, but I can't escape this sense of fleeting abundance and I don't want to infringe on others rights to spear fish, I understand the draw, I just can't get excited about it for now.

[Fishstiq]

Really good answers and examples so far, thank you! I agree with what some have said in regards to spearing around other divers. Nothing good can come from that. It's irresponsible, and usually widens the gap between groups.

I'm not against spearfishing at all ... reduces bycatch, and that's a good thing.

On the other hand, there've been a couple times when I thought the spearos weren't using their head. One at Langley tire reef and another at Possession Pt. Ferry.

At Langley my objection wasn't so much that it's a popular dive site as that these guys were shooting fish in the vicinity of recreational divers ... a missed shot could make for a really bad day. The PPF objection had to do with a guy who swam up and shot a cabezon on eggs ... while I was trying to take a picture of it ... Geez ... find one that's not on eggs, at least.

Like any endeavor, you get responsible spearos, irresponsible ones, skilled ones, unskilled ones, smart ones ... er ... not smart ones ... etc. Gotta judge each as an individual ... not as a group.

Anytime you start stereotyping people, you're gonna misjudge most of 'em ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, this guy was poaching plain and simple. Not only is that dangerous and aggressively rude (shooting a fish a photographer is in proximity to), but cabbie are not legal to take during egg laying and hatching seasons. Too bad this guy didn't get caught by WDFW or something.

[BASSMAN]

Are there any, tiny spear guns, that I can use for Grunt Sculpin, Gunnel's and Lumpies? They might make great appetizers at a Thanks Giving meal.

Just kidding, spear, eat and don't spear at local/favorite recreational dive sites. All should be good.


Good post Joe!


Keith.

[lamont]

- don't fish at popular dive sites
- don't violate laws
- take the smaller/tastier fish, don't hunt big ones for ego
- eat what you catch/kill

i've got no problems with that. i grew up fly fishing and used to catch fish, gut them and eat them that night all the time.

i'd probably spearfish if someone convinced me they were tasty (haven't ever tried ling cod and only recently tasted rock fish), and if i made more time for myself for cooking, and if i had a similarly minded buddy to go out with. spending hours of time doing the diving and then all the time doing prep and cooking tends to mean that hunting in QFC will win out for me most of the time.

i do vaguely have this prejudice that spearing is too easy and not sporting enough for the fish, but that's more than offset by the fact that you can be more surgical.

[LCF]

I don't have anything against spearing -- it's a "one fish at a time" kind of taking, as opposed to trawling or long lines. From everything I have read, though, rockfish stocks are in such decline that I have a hard time thinking that any catching of them in the Sound is a good idea. There do seem to be plenty of ling cod, and if people don't take the big ones, I doubt it will have much effect on the population.

[CaptnJack]

I'm not against spear fishing, I think it's pathetic that we have so poorly managed the fisheries and the ecosystem that it's so darn hard to find a vibrant place to go and hunt where I don't feel like I'm taking some of the last of something.

I don't spear fish because it's my personal observation from diving up and down the west coast and around the world that the fish are in such decline compared to original stocks that it's best to give them a chance to repopulate. Even though Spear fishing has a miniscule impact compared to so many other things, it's just hard for me to have fun doing it given the state of things. When I hear that just 50-60 years ago there were GPO's being hauled in that were nearly 500 lbs and 150 lb salmon, I can't help but imagine that in order for critters to get that large, the ecosystem that supported them must have been many times more abundant. I can't help but think that what we are looking at at most dives sites is a fraction of what used to be there. Can I prove that, do I have the pictures, the studies etc, no, but I can't escape this sense of fleeting abundance and I don't want to infringe on others rights to spear fish, I understand the draw, I just can't get excited about it for now.

+1
I would prefer if we just gave our ocean a rest for a few decades. I used to think that if you went someplace obscure it wasn't as big a deal. It probably isn't at Neah Bay or on the west coast of Vancouver Island. But those places aren't what they used to be either.

There are a few fisheries which I believe are well managed. Pacific halibut and dungeness crab are two of them, mussels & oysters a third, tilapia probably the only farmed fish which is sustainable. So I generally limit my seafood consumption to them. On the land side I am not a vegan, but I don't eat beef or pork as I think those industrial meats are sickening. I am a bit hypocritical for trying to find local non-abused chicken and turkey. Although if I'm a guest in someone's house I will generally eat what I am served.

[Seaslave]

I am a spear fisherman, hook and line fisherman, crabber, scalloper and an avid duck hunter. I don't have a problem with any type of legal, ethical hunting. If done illegally, unethically or unsportsman like, I have a serious problem with that. I believe any true sportsman would.


-Mathue

[coulterboy]

(Spearfishing using SCUBA is illegal in Mexico, and also Australia I believe).

I don't think spearfishing is illegal in Mexico. If it is, one of our LDS who is sponsoring a "spearfishing" trip next year in Mexico is doing it illegaly with a charter boat/dive club down south. I don't think that is the case.

I, too, am an avid hunter and spearfisher (although, I haven't spear fished for over ten years now). For the most part, it is only a very small percentage of spear fishermen and/or hunters that taint the sport in a bad way. Just like a "one bad cop" making the entire police department look bad, and loose the trust of the public. Don't hate the practice or the sport, instead, hate the person doing the sport in the wrong or illegal way. I find that the majority of hunters( spear fishermen and dry land hunters) who do it the wrong way are not properly educated in the sport. And some of them are just plain self-centered, egotistic fools. With regard to trophy hunting, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you eat the meat of what life you just expired. Actually, there is very little meat wasted when you mount a trophy.

I have no problems with vegans. I respect their choice. Life is all about choices, for as long as they are the right ones.
I really appreciate reading the responses preceding my response. They are all good ones.

Now, for those of you who haven't tried spear fishing - Just go to a sushi bar and spear that darn sushi with you chopsticks!
That's as close and as fresh as you can get to stab at something.

[spatman]

(Spearfishing using SCUBA is illegal in Mexico, and also Australia I believe).

I don't think spearfishing is illegal in Mexico. If it is, one of our LDS who is sponsoring a "spearfishing" trip next year in Mexico is doing it illegaly with a charter boat/dive club down south. I don't think that is the case.

I'm pretty sure spearfishing on scuba is illegal in Mexico. Freediving only, and no pneumatic spearguns allowed.

[coulterboy]

(Spearfishing using SCUBA is illegal in Mexico, and also Australia I believe).

I don't think spearfishing is illegal in Mexico. If it is, one of our LDS who is sponsoring a "spearfishing" trip next year in Mexico is doing it illegaly with a charter boat/dive club down south. I don't think that is the case.

I'm pretty sure spearfishing on scuba is illegal in Mexico. Freediving only, and no pneumatic spearguns allowed.

Mmmmhh! Maybe that is the case Spatty.

[citycatred]

(Spearfishing using SCUBA is illegal in Mexico, and also Australia I believe).

I don't think spearfishing is illegal in Mexico. If it is, one of our LDS who is sponsoring a "spearfishing" trip next year in Mexico is doing it illegaly with a charter boat/dive club down south. I don't think that is the case.

I'm pretty sure spearfishing on scuba is illegal in Mexico. Freediving only, and no pneumatic spearguns allowed.

Mmmmhh! Maybe that is the case Spatty.

"In Mexico a regular fishing permit allows spearfishing, but not electro-mechanical spearguns. Spearfishing with scuba gear is illegal and the use of power heads as well. Penalties are severe and include fines, confiscated gear and even imprisonment."
From Wiki
based off http://www.conapescasandiego.org/conten ... EGULATIONS
"Underwater fishing is limited to five fish per day, using rubber band or spring type harpoons, and only while skindiving"

[pensacoladiver]

I would say that for the most part, as spearos mature, they becme more selective about their take and better with their weapon.

Can it seem unfair to certain types of fish? Absolutely. Some let the hunter take an easy shot. this does not mean spearfishing is easy by any stretch. The simple dynamic of loading a banded gun are sometimes too much for some to ever get right. Just like anything else with diving, it takes practice to get good at it.

Unfortunately, that practice can come at a cost of bad shots that injure the fish while allowing it to get away. I am guilty of that myself when I started and still miss a shot from time to time. H20 doctor watched a decent Hogfish get away from me on the Jim Atria while he was here. It was a bad shot and the fish got off the spear before I could get to it.

I spent about 5 minutes looking for it before I went into deco and felt bad that I was unable to find it and finish it respectfully. The up side is that the ocean is a great machine and that injured fish will provide a meal for something else in the water.

Some requires exceptional skills such as hunting for tuna. You aint gonna get close on scuba so you have to be a freediver AND one hell of a shot with a long gun.

When I started hunting in the PNW, one of the fisrt sites I went to with my small gun was Langley. It was in the winter and had just snowed terrible... barely got the truck up the hill coming back. There are perch there to beat the band and they were legal to take year round. I got a few, cleaned and ate them, decided they were too damn mushy for me and have not pointed the gun at them since.

Lastly, and I'm gonna be a bit of a smart ass here. Anyone who says they dont like Lingcod has not tried one of Cory's fish tacos yet. I have been gone for a while, I am allowed to use his name on this board?

[BillyD]

I spearfished in Australia a bit, it's good because you can select exactly the fish you intend to catch, eliminating bicatch. However, that was all done while freediving, which I think is way more legit than spearing on scuba. It's a hell of a lot harder, and more of a sport. Who would honestly say it's sporting to swim up to a ling cod on scuba, but the spear to the fishes side and pull the trigger?

There are however really serious problems with a few things about spearfishing, including spearing tournaments, and commercial spearfishing. The tournaments are really horrible (at least some that I have seen) with people filling up their boats with as many fish as they can kill, the bigger the better. These are bad because they take (obviously) way more fish than they need, and result in all of the large fish from an area being eliminated.

Commercial spearfishing is bad for the same reason spearing can be good - specific fish are targeted and killed. These are usually the largest fish, which contribute the most offspring to later generations. Commercial spearfishing operations will identify a reef or wreck where fish are, and then systematically go down and kill all of fish on that wreck or reef. It's the big fish they are after as well. Systematically stripping all of the fish life from wrecks or reefs is terrible, and I am sure it impacts more things than just the fish they are killing. Many predatory fish are keystone species, which means that they keep the whole ecosystem in balance, and taking them out of the equation causes the whole trophic web to change in unpredictable ways.

That being said, I do not think there is anything wrong with spearing a few fish a year to eat. I myself am a salmon fisherman, and will probably try spearing in the Northwest eventually. It’s all about being reasonable, responsible, and mindful of how your actions impact an area.

[pensacoladiver]

I spearfished in Australia However, that was all done while freediving, which I think is way more legit than spearing on scuba. It's a hell of a lot harder, and more of a sport. Who would honestly say it's sporting to swim up to a ling cod on scuba, but the spear to the fishes side and pull the trigger?

and will probably try spearing in the Northwest eventually.

Does that mean you will be freediving while spearing in the Northwest?

[Novice]

The one thing that limits Spearing excess in Washington is the limits on spear "friendly" game fish. Ling's are the real prize and the season is very short and the daily limit 1 fish so unless you are talking poachers the take in a 3-4 week season is pretty limited. Salmon behavior pretty much prevents spearing in the salt (and is illegal anyway). That leaves Greenlings and Cabezon which are plenty tasty but not "prize" table fair. I am a hook and line guy and haven't really done any spearing but around here, I sort of think of it as a non-issue from a resource stand point. I agree with the other folks that spear fishermen should refrain from spearing in popular dive sites. If any spear-o want some tips on places to fish that are not dive sites I would be happy to share my bottom fishing holes. I have never seen a diver in any of them...