Free Event: Divers making a difference through exploration!

kdupreez · Post by **kdupreez** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:14 pm

Here are the details for the upcoming presentation by GUE Instructor and cave explorer Mark Messersmith!!

Mark is the Co-Training Director and mixed gas diver for the Woodville Karst Plains Project (WKPP - http://www.wkpp.org). Many world record pushes in cave explorations have been conducted by the WKPP team over the past 20 years in this florida cave and karsts and Mark is one of the key contributors on this ongoing research and exploration project.

This promises to be pretty awesome presentation! Mark is coming all the way from Florida and amongst other training activities that week, he is graciously making time available in order to be here and share his knowledge and experiences with our local Pacific Northwest divers!!

Title: "Making a difference through research, exploration and conservation"
Date: December 15th
Time: 7:00pm - 9:00pm
Location: Underwater Sports, Seattle
Admission: FREE

RSVP HERE: http://www.facebook.com/events/211063502304781

Events Details:
Please Join us on Thursday December 15th @ 7:00pm for a free presentation hosted by Underwater Sports Seattle where GUE Instructor and deep cave diving explorer; Mark Messersmith will be presenting "Making A Difference Through Exploration" based on the past 20 years of research, exploration and conservation work that GUE has done in North Florida, that are now being replicated around the world!

This will be followed by our local Pacfic Northwest based GUE Instructor and shipwreck explorer; Guy Sockey presenting "GUE in the Pacific Northwest" that will cover how current and future local GUE research, exploration and conservation projects can effect change locally in our Pacific Northwest waters and how local divers like you can help make a difference.

GUE is a global non profit organization with members in 58 different countries and GUE members have regularly engaged in noteworthy international projects such as cave exploration in Florida and Mexico, or historical shipwreck survey and research in the Baltic. However, it has always been one of the core pillars of GUE that to think globally we have to act locally. In the last few years, GUE has made some important strides forward and perhaps nowhere is this more apparent than in the Pacific Northwest. GUE members in our region are part of a growing and vibrant training, exploration, and conservation program that is gaining interest and momentum and we are now one of the growth "hotspots" in the world.

Hope yo see lots of divers there who want to enlist their diving skills and experience and make a difference in our beloved Pacific Northwest waters!!

.

BASSMAN · Post by **BASSMAN** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:17 am

Okay, so what is the difference between Gue,Team Diver and DIR? Are there just a few simularities? or several.
This is a honest question and I'm not trying to start any Flame wars! If it gets crazy, the mods can, and will, lock this thread.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:48 am

BASSMAN wrote:Okay, so what is the difference between Gue,Team Diver and DIR? Are there just a few simularities? or several.
This is a honest question and I'm not trying to start any Flame wars! If it gets crazy, the mods can, and will, lock this thread.

Generally the philosophies between Hogarthian, DIR, UTD, GUE, and other agency instructors who teach this approach are very similar. There are some subtle differences, and there are some specific larger differences, but on the whole the idea behind it is the same. This is why we have created the NWUE (Northwest Underwater Explorers), which is a catch-all group for anyone interested in "Hogarthian/DIR/Team Diving" to come join people who've chosen to dive like that where they can ask questions, try gear, and get answers in a non-threatening and welcoming environment. This is where they can also meet instructors like Scott, Brian, Koos, Peter, Bob, etc. It's not really a "dive club" for just anyone, but rather is a setting where they can ask honest questions of what and why, and get honest answers. It's kind of a place for a "DIR-curious diver" to learn, sample, and decide if this style of diving is something they're interested in.

GUE Seattle is a different group all together. GUE is not just a training organization, but is also very focused on exploration and conservation. GUE teams have recently discovered several new wrecks (not all of which have been publicly-announced yet) and are contributing to projects of both locally and globally. These are projects GUE is specifically sponsoring, and they're conducted by GUE groups. GUE Seattle is a member-based 501c3 and is the official GUE Affiliate for our area. GUE Seattle is for GUE-trained divers, working on and contributing to GUE-sponsored projects.

Thursday's presentation is an open invitation to anyone interested in the work GUE is doing, or who would like to come meet a GUE instructor like Guy or Mark (or soon-to-be GUE instructor Koos). The presentation will be on the work the WKPP team is doing in Florida, which is rather impressive no matter WHAT type of diving philosophy you may or may not subscribe to. It'll have a GUE flavor of course, but it's not a membership-drive or GUE sales-pitch. I know there are some non-divers who are interested in it as well just from a curiosity and interest angle.

So, if you want to know what GUE Seattle is specifically about, come join us! It's a rare opportunity to have an insider's look into some amazing cave diving, exploration, and conservation work. It promises to be a very cool presentation and I'm really looking forward to it. Most likely I'd guess a few folks will grab a beer somewhere nearby afterward too.

spatman · Post by **spatman** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:09 am

Sounder wrote:
BASSMAN wrote:Okay, so what is the difference between Gue,Team Diver and DIR? Are there just a few simularities? or several.
This is a honest question and I'm not trying to start any Flame wars! If it gets crazy, the mods can, and will, lock this thread.

Generally the philosophies between Hogarthian, DIR, UTD, GUE, and other agency instructors who teach this approach are very similar. There are some subtle differences, blah blah blah

TLDR

GUE - certifying agency that trains divers in DIR methods, similar to UTD with minor differences.
Team Diver - a more PC name for a DIR diver, basically
DIR - read the intro paragraph here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIR_diving

airsix · Post by **airsix** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:04 pm

spatman wrote:
Sounder wrote:There are some subtle differences, blah blah blah
TLDR

As a matter of code enforcement, I feel compelled to remind you that according to RC-NWDC 70.77.1, also known as "The Norris Rule", you are required to read, at a minimum, the first 2 paragraphs of a post.

spatman · Post by **spatman** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:20 pm

airsix wrote:
spatman wrote:
Sounder wrote:There are some subtle differences, blah blah blah
TLDR

As a matter of code enforcement, I feel compelled to remind you that according to RC-NWDC 70.77.1, also known as "The Norris Rule", you are required to read, at a minimum, the first 2 paragraphs of a post.

RC-NWDC 70.77.1, subsection E, paragraph 2:

"Except in such instances as where posts containing paragraphs greater in number of 1 posted by the NWDC member 'Sounder', or other similarly long-winded gasbags."

Mattleycrue76 · Post by **Mattleycrue76** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:04 pm

I used to do it right - then I took an arrow to the knee.

kdupreez · Post by **kdupreez** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:07 pm

spatman wrote:"Except in such instances as where posts containing paragraphs greater in number of 1 posted by the NWDC member 'Sounder', or other similarly long-winded gasbags."

Wait... What?? Sounder said somethin ?

To first hand experience what GUE is all about and how GUE is making a difference around the globe and locally, come on down on Thursday and meet the local GUE crowd (who you all probably know and dive with already!) and take a glimpse into our PNW conservation projects and efforts..

Hope to see y'all next week!! Come on down and say hi and come experience an awesome presentation on local GUE diving and cutting edge Research and Exploration efforts in the Florida Cave systems!!

But to answer your question, GUE is a RECREATIONAL Diving (yes open water divers with single tanks and wetsuits are perfectly welcome!) and Technical Diving Training Agency dedicated to the principles of Team Diving that employs standardized diving protocols, standardized equipment configurations and standardized breathing gasses.. And the the biggest differentiation between GUE and other diving agencies is that GUE is actually a non-profit organization that was founded on the core values of Exploration, Research, Conservation and Preservation of our beloved aquatic realm and focusing on developing divers through standardized high quality diver Education and training to support those core values. The "for-profit commercialization" of diver training is not and has never been a goal for GUE, being non-profit means they are not bound by the pushing of certification numbers in order to support revenue and growth.

(And by no means am I trying to demean the goals of other agencies here, so please dont see this as a prime opportunity to debate a counter argument.. I'm simply stating the goals and objectives of GUE and I would like to keep this thread focused on the "Divers making a difference through Exploration" event next week.. )

This in short is what GUE is about and there is a really cool 10min video of "What GUE has always been about" and I would highly encourage you to watch that for more information:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUjxA1j4-LI[/youtube]

Cheers

Koos

BASSMAN · Post by **BASSMAN** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:15 am

Thank you all, for answering my question!
I think I've asked this before, but now I have a much better understanding.
Hey you never know, I might get in on one of these presentations and further my dive training.
I would think the only thing holding me back woulkd be the $$. But then again, if I was to show up on December 15th,I may have a new concept and place a better value on this type of training.
I might have to come check it out!

Keith.

Great Video, Thanks!

kdupreez · Post by **kdupreez** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:55 pm

Just a quick bump to remind everyone of the WKPP and GUE presentation Thursday night!!

I spoke to Mark Messersmith tonight over dinner and this promises to be a kick-ass presentation!!

Title: "Making a difference through research, exploration and conservation"
Date: December 15th
Time: 7:00pm - 9:00pm
Location: Underwater Sports, Seattle
Admission: FREE

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:51 am

I've seen Mark talk down in Mexico before and he's a very good speaker.

He's not only part of GUE and the training agency, but also part of the WKPP, so he can give insight into the project exploration and answer questions about it. The presentation I saw before was mostly about the WKPP, just going on the title it sounds like this talk may be a bit more Big Picture, tying together the WKPP exploration with GUE's conservation and education focus. I'm certain it'll be good.

I'd *really* encourage some of the non-GUE divers on NWDC that are interested or actively doing exploration to show up for the presentation. Mark is an excellent spokesperson for the WKPP. And I believe he's a pastor in his other life, so his approach to communication is fairly mellow and chill, he should be very approachable to anyone in the larger Seattle diving community. If you're on the fence, you should really attend.

Bric Martin · Post by **Bric Martin** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:07 am

BASSMAN wrote:Thank you all, for answering my question!
I think I've asked this before, but now I have a much better understanding.
Hey you never know, I might get in on one of these presentations and further my dive training.
I would think the only thing holding me back woulkd be the $$. But then again, if I was to show up on December 15th,I may have a new concept and place a better value on this type of training.
I might have to come check it out!

Keith.

Great Video, Thanks!

Don't let $$ hold you back, GUE is not for profit(I only had 1 font)!

BASSMAN · Post by **BASSMAN** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:47 pm

Okay, what is the cost for GUE Fundamentals Training?

ljjames · Post by **ljjames** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:51 am

BASSMAN wrote:Okay, what is the cost for GUE Fundamentals Training?

I see where this is going, and probably shouldn't, but... i'll bite

(don't worry, only one sugar free redbull today) sorry about the thread drift/hijack.

Fundamentals generally ranges in price between 650 - 750, plus instructor expenses. The expenses can be more or less depending on if they are local or your are bringing them in from out of state/country, where they stay, where you get your gas, etc... In my personal experience a plane ticket and gas to drive a few hundred miles these days ends up being pretty equivalent if booked in advance.

There are folks who are very pro 2 weekend courses which will double the travel costs if you don't have an "in your city" instructor, but is nice from a performance anxiety standpoint (you spend a weekend learning what you need to know and then have one or two weeks in between to practice before you are 'tested' on it), but with adequate preparation via mentors the course is very doable in one sitting. if you can go into class with solid buoyancy and water comfort, a good "platform" as its called, and get some dives in with a mentor or two, it might not be as 'relaxed' as a split weekend, but totally achievable.

Perhaps a few of the recent grads (past year or so) can weigh in, I know that Kees couldn't have been more relaxed if he tried and he rocked a tech pass

From a 'cost per hour' point of view, GUE instructors put in a tremendous amount of time and effort getting you the information and skills you are paying for with measurable objectives and hopefully positive experience for all involved. I have yet to take a GUE class (or watch/video for a class) where the instructor was not putting in 12+ hr days, and classes are now limited to 3 students for the most part.

If you do a true side by side comparison with other training agencies out there, actually compare apples to apples (as in what you get out of the classes from a cert point of view) the cost of GUE training is not really that different. One GUE Class may be broken up into 2 or more via a different agency.

anyhooo.... more importantly, is it worth it?

All i can give you is my personal experience (and many of you know what a penny pinching cheapskate i am) it was absolutely worth it and one of the best scuba classes i've taken. I took fundamentals twice (yes, remedial or hardheaded, you be the judge) once in '07 after waffling around for a few years trying to avoid taking it (thinking i could learn what i needed all by osmosis), and then from Bob Sherwood in '09, it was ~750 + expenses and i will absolutely say that it was worth every penny. amazingly enough, they can teach an old dog new tricks

Bob Sherwood fixed 19 years of bad diving habits, and i can't thank him enough

(and thank you Lamont for putting up with me for all these years)

My only regret is that GUE did not exist 'the first time 'round' back in the early 90's when i did my original tech training. The folks who have grown up with this system have no idea how lucky they are

GUE training did not negate my previous experience and education, but it overlays beautifully to make me a better, more comfortable, more efficient diver.

kdupreez · Post by **kdupreez** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:21 am

The cost for a GUE Fundamentals class runs about $650-$750 for a full 4 days of training and diving..

On face value, a lot of people go "whoa.. thats a lot for a "fundamentals" class..

But, realistically, this is actually one of the best value for money diving instruction classes in the market today!

GUE Fundamentals is at least a full 4 day class and in some cases even 5 days, with with every day ranging between 8-11 hours spent with world class diver educators in a setting where ratios are never more than 3 students per instructor where you will be doing tons of classroom education and at least 6 open water dives.

I would challenge you to find any scuba class that will be able to provide you with 40-50 hours of dedicated scuba instructor time for only $650!

Usually your typical AOW + Nitrox classes run easily $350-400 for 2 days of mostly half-days at a dive site.. (I do know there are some exceptions to this, especially in our community)

Now put 2 or maybe even 3 of these typical AOW+Nitrox classes back to back in order to compare apples to apples in terms of pure classroom and in-water instruction time and you'll see it racks up to well over $1,000 worth of education that you receive during a GUE Fundamentals class.

In my experience I have yet to find a GUE Fundamentals graduate who is not labeling GUE-F as the best diving course they have ever taken!

Quite honestly, the proof is in the pudding and the best thing you can do is come see what we're all about come and dive with me or any of the GUE Seattle crew and we would be more than happy to welcome you with open arms and go do some dives where you can experience first hand what we're all about

BTW - This presentation tonight ROCKED! we had about 35 people attend and you can be sure you guys and galls will see a LOT more activity from the GUE Seattle camp!

seainggreen · Post by **seainggreen** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:29 am

BASSMAN wrote:Okay, what is the cost for GUE Fundamentals Training?

Howdy,

You've gotten some great feedback about the value of the course and structure. I just wanted to weigh in with one piece of advice: take the course from a local instructor.

While the course can be done in one weekend or two, which is a great option, I strongly, strongly recommend taking the course from a local instructor. I've taken several GUE classes, some from local instructors and one from an instructor who had to travel for the class. Having a locally based instructor is fantastic, because since the instructor lives locally, it's easy for them to finish things up at a later time or get something checked off, etc, if necessary. When you bring in an outside instructor, if you do not complete the course for some reason (anything from getting a cold to having a blown neck seal, blah blah blah), then you are stuck with either not finishing the course and that's that, or you are tasked with taking on the cost of bringing the instructor back AGAIN to finish the course, which is a very spendy proposition. Myself and others have found the subsequent "pressure to complete or be stuck" environment is not very conducive to a positive learning experience.

Fortunately, we have a fantastic local instructor in Guy Shockey. He resides on Vancouver Island but he's down in Seattle almost monthly as of late and he's been extremely willing to flex to the needs of students in terms of course structure, days of the week, and returning to Seattle to help out folks who needed a bit of extra time to finish things up.

Anyways, that's just my $.02, but having had both the local and import instructor experience, wanted to share that perspective. I do encourage you to take Fundamentals. Everyone I speak to who's taken the course readily shares that it changed their diving life entirely for the better.

Happy diving!

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:29 am

Yes, but what is GUE/DIR, and how much does it cost?

cardiver · Post by **cardiver** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:39 am

LCF · Post by **LCF** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:43 am

Well, how much does it cost to replace all the gear you have that isn't black?

(The presence of a smiley other than the simple one should be adequate evidence that the above was said firmly tongue in cheek.)

Seriously, though. I paid $500 for my Fundamentals class in 2005, and it was a three-day class then, and I STILL think it's probably the best value for money I've spent in the enormous amount of diving education I've undertaken.

Fundies is priced more like tech classes are, true; but what it does is give either the aspiring technical OR the avid recreational diver tools to enjoy being underwater more. If you can't already sit perfectly still for as long as you want; if you can't retrace your steps on a dive because you can't see, anywhere you've already been; if you can't deploy an SMB at the end of a boat dive without yo-yoing in the water column; if you have buddy problems, because people disappear . . . You can fix all those things. Even for divers who CAN do those things, there's more education on gas management and decompression theory (much more than in a mainstream recreational class). But more than anything else, there is the concept of diving as a team, which is one of the biggest joys of this kind of diving to me, because a team is more than just a couple of buddies who have agreed to stay in one another's general vicinity for an hour.

When I read Jarrod Jablonski's book, six years ago, what struck me is that he promised that diving this way would be more FUN. Six years later, I'm absolutely willing to say that Jarrod was right. (And although I have cave and a bit of a technical cert, the VAST majority of my diving is still shallower than 100 foot, critter watching diving.)

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:23 pm

Joshua Smith wrote:Yes, but what is GUE/DIR, and how much does it cost?

For you?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DJtHL3NV1o[/youtube]

Peter Guy · Post by **Peter Guy** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:37 am

Some asked the question, and it has been discussed a bit, about the "cost of Fundies." Much of the discussion implied that "Fundies is expensive." It is not.

I am a PADI Instructor and am committed to training within the PADI system. IF you were to take a "Fundies Type Training" within the PADI system, you'd probably spend MORE money on the PADI training than if you just took Fundies. While there is no direct equivalent class, I think combining the following three PADI courses would be (could be) close:

Nitrox -- Fundies DOES give you a Nitrox cert (at least for using up to 32%) -- PADI Cost -- $100 (course fee); $50 (materials); $25 (Card)

Peak Performance Buoyancy -- Fundies is a PPB class on steroids but I'll use it anyway -- PADI Cost -- $150 (course fee); $50 (materials); $25 (Card)

Self-Reliant Diver Distinctive Specialty -- Perhaps the closest PADI has to Fundies -- PADI Cost -- $250 (est. course fee based on two days diving); $50 (materials); $25 (Card)

If my costs are anywhere near accurate, then the Course fees would be $500, materials $150, Cards $75. For this money you'd get 3 days of diving, 2 dives/day and a couple of nights (or days) of lecture.

Sometimes you might actually get MORE than what you paid for and just perhaps, Fundies is one of those times.

spatman · Post by **spatman** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:14 am

Back to the original topic:

Was the talk recorded/videoed and posted anywhere? It would be great for those of us who couldn't make it in person to be able to see it.

kdupreez · Post by **kdupreez** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:43 am

No Sorry Spatty, It was not recorded. Mark Messersmith might be back in March and we'll see if we can get more of these presentations going..

Lots of good stuff happening through the local non-profit org to help conserve our local PNW resources, its all volunteer based and anything we can do to get people interested in helping with these conservation projects would be awesome..

even if it is paying a $1 per day

BASSMAN · Post by **BASSMAN** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:27 am

Joshua Smith wrote:Yes, but what is GUE/DIR, and how much does it cost?

Hey? What? Wait, me?...

Naw, couldn't be.

I have to admit, some of the best tips I've gotten, have been from GUE/DIR/TEAM/TECH divers.

B/P, Long Hose, SMB deployment, deep water drop w/ a buddy face to face.
All have been great and are probably just scratching the surface.
But,

Not today.
Seriously, Thanks for the honest responses.

I hope to get to meet and dive with kdupreez and ljjames some day.

I don't get up to the North end of P.S. enough.

Northwest Dive Club