Some thoughts

[scubnewb]

I think if I could get away with diving at night all the time... I would for sure... I really liked being out there both under the water and just floating around in the water at night... those can lights are ridiculous cant wait to get mine!

[/quote]

Exactly the point Josh. That's why I responded this way on that post.

By the way, I dove with Phillip tonight at the MMM group. He was my buddy. Dude, I'll dive with you anytime, anywhere.
Now you know what night diving is all about. I hope you enjoyed the dive.[/quote]

[BASSMAN]

I think if I could get away with diving at night all the time... I would for sure...

Now You're talkin' my language dude!

I'm all about the night diving too!


Looking forward to diving with you soon!


Now back to the topic...

I like this school of thought:

We were all once new divers and had role models to help us along the way and I feel its now my time to pay that forward..

[skubi]

Great post Josh!

I used to think that I was a good diver then I started diving with great divers and realized just how much I had to learn. This had two effects on me, 1) I took more training and 2) I did a lot more diving. I suspect that many of us are constantly pushing our personal limits in order to be a better diver, to achieve some personal goal, and maybe to experience a bit of the thrill that got us in to this sport in the first place.

My point is that if I don't dive with divers that are much better than myself I risk complacency in thinking that I am a better diver than I really am. This might lead me to push past the point were I know how to plan for a dive or deal with unexpected events underwater.

I think that if you really care about the person asking for advice you should not only be willing to offer it in words but in action too. Take the time to dive with less experienced divers and share your passion for the sport. Be a good example for less experience divers and pass what knowledge you have. I know that I need to do this more myself.

[Nwbrewer]

those can lights are ridiculous cant wait to get mine!

sipped!

Next time try the Jetfins too....

[lamont]

Fwiw, I read your entire post, and I don't disagree with any of your points, per se. But the OP never said he wanted to become a dm or instructor "very quickly", did he? Just that that was the eventual goal, correct?

Its possible I read something that wasn't there, but that's the impression I certainly got and what I reacted to.

And I don't mean to stomp all over someone's enthusiasm, but at the same time there's a lot of divers that get focused on a goal (DM/Instructor, Tech, Cave, RB, whatever) and they forget about learning to dive and enjoying diving. Once they hit those goals they burn out and quit. And in the Tech realm, you just wind up with a diver blowing through lots of $$$, which is just Keynesian economic stimulus, so that's fine. In the DM/Instructor realm, you can wind up with newbie divers teaching other newbie divers how to dive, and you at the far end you wind up with the silliness of doing little bounce dives just to meet the PADI standard of "a dive" in order to progress.

I really think its way better to just spend the first 100 dives focusing on diving, and not thinking about Tech or Instructor/DM.

[scottsax]

Based on the divers that I know have taken CO2 hits, I often wonder about how many of the divers who are selling their dive gear to "spend time with their family" have really just had a very bad dive.

The last 2 dives I did below about 50 feet, I got hit pretty bad. I'm "spending more time with family" while I get back into some sort of shape with my personal trainer.

[RoxnDox]

Based on the divers that I know have taken CO2 hits, I often wonder about how many of the divers who are selling their dive gear to "spend time with their family" have really just had a very bad dive.

The last 2 dives I did below about 50 feet, I got hit pretty bad. I'm "spending more time with family" while I get back into some sort of shape with my personal trainer.

(partial thread-jack here) A quick google makes it look like a "CO2 hit" is something that happens mostly with rebreathers. True, or can it happen with open-circuit recreational gear too? Just wonderin'...

(back to Josh's topic) This board has lot of collective knowledge in the members, obviously. Like anything else on hte interwebz, some things are going to generate a lot of passion and it can be a real challenge for newcomers to tell the difference between a friendly discussion between two guys who have dove together forever who just like to punch each other's buttons, and a sarcastic flame response from somebody with just enough new knowledge to think they know it all. Us new guys need to take everyone's replies with a shaker of salt (not just a grain or two...) when things get fired up, and some of the oldsters (and I am not talking yer age!) need to tone things down sometimes when it's a newbie asking what seems like a dumb question

Just my 0.02 sand dollars worth.

Jim

[lamont]

Based on the divers that I know have taken CO2 hits, I often wonder about how many of the divers who are selling their dive gear to "spend time with their family" have really just had a very bad dive.

The last 2 dives I did below about 50 feet, I got hit pretty bad. I'm "spending more time with family" while I get back into some sort of shape with my personal trainer.

Kicking more efficiently with better trim can also help as well. A lot of energy in diving is wasted on bad form. That tires divers out, builds up more CO2, and consumes more gas.

Of course it also keeps you warm, so better form leads to needing thicker undergarmets, hoods, heating vests, etc...

[lamont]

(partial thread-jack here) A quick google makes it look like a "CO2 hit" is something that happens with rebreathers. True, or can it happen with open-circuit recreational gear too? Just wonderin'...

Yes. The leading edge of a CO2 hit is a "dark narc" or "paranoid narc" and rec divers can easily experience that at dives to 100 feet. When stressed with current trying to return to an upline or something, that can spiral into a full-blown CO2 hit.

Its also fairly common around here to have OC tech divers taking CO2 hits diving in the lake (and there's no training agency that gives you a bulletproof vest that will help you to avoid it entirely), and of the cases I know of most of the time it seems to be on one of the bombers to only 135-145 or so.

[RoxnDox]

(partial thread-jack here) A quick google makes it look like a "CO2 hit" is something that happens with rebreathers. True, or can it happen with open-circuit recreational gear too? Just wonderin'...

Yes. The leading edge of a CO2 hit is a "dark narc" or "paranoid narc" and rec divers can easily experience that at dives to 100 feet. When stressed with current trying to return to an upline or something, that can spiral into a full-blown CO2 hit.

Its also fairly common around here to have OC tech divers taking CO2 hits diving in the lake (and there's no training agency that gives you a bulletproof vest that will help you to avoid it entirely), and of the cases I know of most of the time it seems to be on one of the bombers to only 135-145 or so.

Thanks

Jim

[scottsax]

Based on the divers that I know have taken CO2 hits, I often wonder about how many of the divers who are selling their dive gear to "spend time with their family" have really just had a very bad dive.

The last 2 dives I did below about 50 feet, I got hit pretty bad. I'm "spending more time with family" while I get back into some sort of shape with my personal trainer.

Kicking more efficiently with better trim can also help as well. A lot of energy in diving is wasted on bad form. That tires divers out, builds up more CO2, and consumes more gas.

Of course it also keeps you warm, so better form leads to needing thicker undergarmets, hoods, heating vests, etc...

I have decent trim, efficient kicks, and great, warm gear. I am out of shape (although noticeably less so now after 4 weeks with the trainer) and more importantly, out of practice diving. It seems to go in cycles for me - I dive more, and my sax playing suffers, or I play more, and my diving suffers.

[ljjames]

Jim,

<edit, lamont beat me to it>


a retained CO2 hit can happen when you are not exchanging gas adequately for the workload. It happens on both CCR and OC, and is a completely different animal from Scrubber breakthrough.

Basically it can become an issue when you are working moderately hard -> very hard, at depth (depth can be 80-100' even) or skip breathing when you are doing something silly like holding your breath when trying for 'the perfect shot' and not move the camera.

in my experience it increases the effects of narcosis dramatically and brings about what some folks refer to as a "dark narc", as CO2 makes you feel incredibly uncomfortable, agitated and for some even insidious or sometimes sudden onset panic-y all for no apparent reason other than things just don't feel 'right'.

it can be alleviated more or less by:

a) being a more efficient diver (optimize gear for less drag, only take what you need for the dive, optimize your attitude in the water for least effort expended, optimize propulsion methods for less exertion, etc...)

b) using helium in your mix, even in the 80-100' range. (easier to breath and dramatic reduction in narcosis)

c) high quality regs

d) better physical fitness

e) staying shallower until you've got the first 4 sorted out.

f) be aware of it. It CAN occur shallower, 60-70' if you are swimming hard. If you feel it coming on, recognize it for what it is, then slow down and breath, and if you need to, ascend a little shallower to reduce the narcosis, sometimes 10-15' can make all the difference in the world, but most of the time it can be adequately dealt with by stopping whatever it is that is making you produce a lot of CO2.

g) remember to breath when you are shooting video or just trying to hold really still... shallow breathing is not good for gas exchange either I can start retaining CO2 when i'm scootering just cause i get so relaxed that i kinda drift off into happy warm diver land in my head, and start skip breathing a bit unconsciously. I've also seen people do it when they are over weighted (or underweighted) and trying to use their lungs completely for buoyancy instead of just putting a puff in their wing/suit. you can't exchange gas effectively if you are just breathing off top or bottom of your lungs either

if you find yourself underweighted at depth or on ascent and you know it's gonna be a struggle, a bit of a trick is as you are dumping ascend up a hair allowing a bit of gas expansion, dump the gas and then kind of gently kick yourself back down a foot or two and it should squeeze you enough to help you through without having to bring a cinder block back up with you. (I recommend proper weight checks though whenever you have gear changes or whatnot, this is just an "oh shit, i added the thermal vest and forgot to add the extra 2lbs to my trim pocket kind of thing)

new to scootering will also do this, scooter down to wherever, not add enough gas on the ride down, get there, finger off trigger, oops, really negative, take a huge lungful of air to try to compensate a little whilst getting bags of air sorted out... hold it for a bit and the wonder why you are all of a sudden SUPER narc'd

[RoxnDox]

Thanks Laura, great explanation. And a few more things to think about as I continue to work on sorting out gear, trim, ballasting, and all that sort of thing.

Jim

[lamont]

Jim,

<edit, lamont beat me to it>

Concision, FTW =)

[RoxnDox]

Jim,

<edit, lamont beat me to it>

Concision, FTW =)

Ah, but there's a fine line between Concise and "overly terse" For a newbie diver her explanation gets the Win

Jim

[ljjames]

and that was only a 'one sugar free redbull answer' <grin>

Jim,

<edit, lamont beat me to it>

Concision, FTW =)

Ah, but there's a fine line between Concise and "overly terse" For a newbie diver her explanation gets the Win

Jim

[CaptnJack]

Its also fairly common around here to have OC tech divers taking CO2 hits diving in the lake (and there's no training agency that gives you a bulletproof vest that will help you to avoid it entirely), and of the cases I know of most of the time it seems to be on one of the bombers to only 135-145 or so.

Who/where are you getting these "fairly common" statements from? I have done the Harpoon, Valient, and Bomber maybe 40 or 50 times in aggregate. And for most of those dives there have been between 1 and 3 other buddies on my boat. So I've been there for pushing 175 dives total on these wrecks and I have yet to hear any feedback on CO2 hits.

"Jeesh I was a little narced on that today" sure. Myself and various buddies have said that once or twice. "Damn I was huffing like a freight train and I think I had a CO2 hit" never.

[Grateful Diver]

Its also fairly common around here to have OC tech divers taking CO2 hits diving in the lake (and there's no training agency that gives you a bulletproof vest that will help you to avoid it entirely), and of the cases I know of most of the time it seems to be on one of the bombers to only 135-145 or so.

Who/where are you getting these "fairly common" statements from? I have done the Harpoon, Valient, and Bomber maybe 40 or 50 times in aggregate. And for most of those dives there have been between 1 and 3 other buddies on my boat. So I've been there for pushing 175 dives total on these wrecks and I have yet to hear any feedback on CO2 hits.

"Jeesh I was a little narced on that today" sure. Myself and various buddies have said that once or twice. "Damn I was huffing like a freight train and I think I had a CO2 hit" never.

I tend to see more CO2 hits on dives like Day Island Wall ... when folks don't call the slack "predictions" right ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[CaptnJack]

I tend to see more CO2 hits on dives like Day Island Wall ... when folks don't call the slack "predictions" right ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

DIW or Sunrise. Or even Z's when its moving. They all belie their actual depth.

Waterman's actually moves up and down more than sideways so seems to be less of a CO2 hotspot. Being a boat dive for most helps limit access and restricts those attempting to push it too.

[ljjames]

"Jeesh I was a little narced on that today" sure. Myself and various buddies have said that once or twice. "Damn I was huffing like a freight train and I think I had a CO2 hit" never.

I believe he's referring to subtle CO2 issues. "I felt a bit more narc'd than normal" or "wow, i was a little narc'd down there today" is a near perfect description of a bit more CO2 in the system. Not necessarily a full on "CO2 hit". I've also heard it referred to as "head on a string" narc.

I'm not saying that every odd narcotic event can or should be explained away by CO2. Could be cold, could be dark, could be not enough helium, could be tired, could have stress and other things on your mind, could be just random luck of the draw that day.... Could be a lot of things... I believe it IS something to be aware of though, and is often under recognized.

[spatman]

I tend to see more CO2 hits on dives like Day Island Wall ... when folks don't call the slack "predictions" right ...

That's when I notice CO2 buildup/retention, during heavy exertion. One of my first dives at DIW was a wake-up call about my susceptibility to CO2 loading.

[CaptnJack]

"I felt a bit more narc'd than normal" or "wow, i was a little narc'd down there today" is a near perfect description of a bit more CO2 in the system. Not necessarily a full on "CO2 hit". I've also heard it referred to as "head on a string" narc.

Its either known, unknown, or an explicit WAG.
Knowing that the day to day workload variation on the Bomber is minimal I would guess its not CO2.

[pensacoladiver]

I don't have an AOW cert and probably never will. To me, AOW was between dives circa 30 and where I am now, a bit over 500. I suppose that's one of the benefits of either owning your own boat, or being friends with someone who has a boat... you don't need a c card to do the cool boat dives that require an AOW C card on a charter.

I have a buddy here in Ft Lauderdale that is AOW certified and in syllabus for Rescue Diver now and can't find his ass with two hands and a map. I've said it before and I'll say it again and again... A card don't make you a good diver, experience makes you a good diver.

One of the best things about the PNW is there is no shortage of exceptional divers who are willing to dive with you at no charge. they are worth their weight in gold and I learned more form them than I would ever learn in a class. I'm not advocating not taking a class, again, just saying actual diving makes the difference.

Lastly, I don't know if it was a CO2 hit, but the most uncomfortable I have ever been... and yes, this happened at least 5 times (I am hard headed) was in 40 feet of water at Polnell Point chasing crab in about 5 foot of vis. I did not have the scooter yet and when the big ones would start getting away, I would kick like hell to get to them while dragging a bag, sometimes with crab in it behind me. If I exerted myself for more than about 15 seconds, it never failed, I would be on the bottom breathing like all hell, chest hurting, debating in my head whether I should just go to the surface to get my breath. I never surfaced and it usually was about 45 seconds of hell to get my mind and breathing under control... then I got a scooter, problem solved.

[kdupreez]

A card don't make you a good diver, experience makes you a good diver.

AMEN!!!

(With the small print of dont go dive trail'n'error - get some training/mentoring throughout your dive carreer..)

[ljjames]

"I felt a bit more narc'd than normal" or "wow, i was a little narc'd down there today" is a
near perfect description of a bit more CO2 in the system. Not necessarily a full on "CO2 hit". I've also heard it referred to as "head on a string" narc.

Its either known, unknown, or an explicit WAG.
Knowing that the day to day workload variation on the Bomber is minimal I would guess its not CO2.

sounds like you've always had ideal dives in the lake, and never had to swim around looking for anything

there are many folks less fortunate than you through the years who've spent whole dives swimming ever widening circles around shot lines, i am not sure, but believe those might be the stories Lamont is referring to.

I know of one diver personally who had a heck of a CO2 experience in the lake, and it was probably the inception for his decision to give up diving out here and tech diving altogether... it was long before CO2 was even talked about. He just had a 'really really bad dive' and decided the fun just wasn't there for him anymore (after a decade and a couple thousand dives if memory serves me). years later now he understands what it was, but it still hasn't changed his decision about diving up here.

its not always about working hard. Sometimes its simply skip breathing or holding breath whilst sorting out buoyancy or task loading or whatever... inadequate respiration to do the job.

in any event, my experiences thus far in the lake have been closer to yours richard, so i dunno... but i also know i can build up CO2 doing stupid stuff fussing with lighting arms or camera, so wouldn't write it off as a possibility