Some thoughts

[Joshua Smith]

A recent thread about taking an AOW class got me thinking about things. As I stated earlier, nothing in that thread crossed any lines, but it did make me uncomfortable. One thing in particular was the "Whoa, slow down, there" message to a new diver who was simply looking to take his AOW class. Conventional wisdom around here is that divers should progress very conservatively in their education. Which is fine, for most divers. But not ALL divers. In my first 9 months of diving, I took OW, AOW, Rescue, and logged 100 dives. At 9 months of diving, my 101st dive was my first dive in Doubles on day 1 of Advanced Nitrox and Deco procedures, and less than a year after that, I bought a Rebreather. I took a lot of flack for all that. "Too Far, Too Fast" was something I heard more than once- but only from people who never dived with me. I wouldn't change very much about how I did what I did, if I could.

Obviously, we've all heard stories about guys who did similar training arcs, and then died on the Doria a year after they took Open Water. I'm not suggesting that it's wrong to caution people away from diving outside their limits. But if you haven't dived with someone, how do you know where their limits are? In the case in point, the poster was looking to take AOW, so that he could start diving to 130', which some of you may consider a huge step forward, but I don't. It's still within the CESA range. (admittedly, I hope none of us ever have to do one from 130', or any depth, really.) My feeling about this is different from some of you all, because I know that some divers are going to go deeper than they're trained for, once they realize that there's nobody waiting at 60' or 130' demanding to see their C cards. I did more than a few ill advised dives my first year or so, and I think that a lot of other divers do, too. Discouraging them from further training seems like a bad thing, to me. They might just learn something that will save their life someday.

[CaptnJack]

My take was the "slow down" response was to the concept of just finishing OW and wanting to be an instructor. At least mine was and I think I was clear about that.

I'm all for taking AOW so you can actually learn something from someone who has something valuable to teach. Not so keen on taking AOW because you have to have the card to dive off XYZ boat somewhere or its just a card you gotta have to enroll in a DM program.

[dwashbur]

My family and I did our AOW as soon as possible after our OW, not so we could go deep - none of us really cares about that - but for the additional training, especially so we could do night dives. In addition, the shop we used at the time was offering a special deal to do AOW at Hoodsport, and since we were in Boise, that would be our first trip to the ocean. We had the $$, so we went for it. It's worked out nicely for us.

I haven't followed the other thread, but that won't stop me from chiming in Everybody is different. One person might be good going at the pace Josh did, another might require a couple of years to be ready for AOW. I really don't think any one of us can tell someone else what their pace should be. If someone asks for advice, sure, give it, but I like to preface mine with "this is free, and well worth every penny." If it's somebody I don't really know, I won't even offer.

But that's just me.

[ljjames]

good post Josh!!!

I also progressed with reasonable speed in my first 2 years diving, flailed around for 20 or so dives after class and then took OW2, Rescue, Advanced, DM ,AI, Deep, Waterfall (yes, waterfall), etc... in rather rapid succession. 2 years, 2 months, and >600 dives later (yes, you read that right), i was sitting in my ITC on my way to being an OW Instructor. April 29 of that same year (1993) i completed my mixed gas diver class and advanced nitrox instructor rating, followed later by mixed gas instructor.

Anyhow, the opportunity for progression and learning is part of what got me so jazzed about diving and i believe what has helped keep me in this sport for ~22 years and counting. getting right on the education horse and taking OW2 and then advanced is part of why i was able to go do lots of "other" dives... it opened up my diving window of opportunity... the more classes i took, the wider that window got I was able to do the dives in a manner that didn't lead me to have a bad experience.. the dives were all within my knowledge base.. i didn't get scared or spooked or have horror show dives because even though i moved pretty quickly, i had the foundation in place for each step up and had for the most part already done an 'equivalent dive' under the watchful eye of an instructor.

I didn't take classes because of an experience <aka bad experience>.. I took classes FOR the experience

My earliest mentors made getting the continuing education a priority. it was a very different mentality than the 'go get a bunch of dives at or past your limits' practice the dickens out of everything you think you'll need to know, and then take the class when you know you'll ace it. the classes were for teaching you and raising you to a higher level of education, not just shaking your hand and saying you came in super well prepared and polishing your current performance, giving you a card to do the dives you were already doing.

No matter what level you are, it seems there is always more learning that can be done that can challenge you (sometimes mentally, sometimes physically, sometimes both)

[ArcticDiver]

I believe important factors that are too often overlooked are prior experience and personality. Some people before coming to scuba have had a lifetime of expeience in what others might call adventurous or hazardous occupations or environments. They know how to gauge themselves and to recognize when they are approaching the edge of their envelope. These people do a lot of research and actually know what questions to ask. They also irritate those who are into rigid rules oriented performance.

Personality plays a big role in scuba as it does in many other activities. Some people are just oriented to group things and others are more individualistic. Some are almost to the "lone wolf" status while others need the pack for comfort. Each type looks at the other with a bit of wonder and sometimes disdain.

These two things equip some people with the ability to not only survive unexpected situations; but to thrive in them.

By way of illustration; a friend and I met up at a lake not far from here after each of us had been in the "back country" of Alaska for a few days. I knew he was somewhere around because I had seen his rig parked there when I unloaded my snowmachine and set out to my place. But I had not seen him, or anyone else, during my time up river. As we were loading our snowmachines on our respective trucks he turned to me and said: "You know what we do for the heck of it is a once in a lifetime adventure fo most people that they have to screw up their courage to do".

One other factor is not to be overlooked. Capturing customers is a vital part of many businesses, including the scuba business. One way to do that is to structure instruction and certification so as to make a customer dependent for extended periods of time. Maybe that is not common. But, I have seen many examples of this as I have traveled and dove.

[Jeff Pack]

As a new diver and new member, I think some members need to temper their advice to the level and knowledge of the person asking for it.

New divers are asking for help and wisdom, but they aren't (and may never even be) a DIR, Tech, GUE, or whatever super charged, adrenaline filled, wreck diving, deep water, scuba junkie.

Sort of why not everyone can be an instructor. There are those that are great divers, but lousy teachers, because they cant express (or temper) that knowledge/advice they have to someone at a much much lower level than themselves.

[ktb]

New divers are asking for help and wisdom, but they aren't (and may never even be) a DIR, Tech, GUE, or whatever super charged, adrenaline filled, wreck diving, deep water, scuba junkie.

Then again, never say never. And I *love* your sig line.

[Jeff Pack]

thats why I said "may never even be".

Yea, I thought the sig line was funny as well, you gotta be able to poke fun at your self.

[Tangfish]

Good thoughts, Josh. I was one who thought that you were going at a breakneck pace, but obviously you didn't fizzle out. You were also doing a healthy amount of non-class dives which I think is key. I sometimes wonder about folks who go straight from OW > DM and then have to squeeze in a few dives just to get to 60 to qualify for their DM training, but my worry there is that they might not have experienced enough to care for others in the water.

Nothing wrong with going straight on to AOW and Rescue Diver to simply better yourself as a diver and have more tools in the tool belt, meet more folks to dive with, etc.

[scubnewb]

I am the OP for the AOW thread, and this poster hit the bulseye with the kind of person I am in the first half of his thred. Adventuous and Hazardous should be my middle and last names lol... But most importantly I do know when to slow down as i am reaching the edge of my envelope. And to learn how to do that took experience in over doing it. In the past when I was younger, careless and didnt have anything to lose (Like My 3 Kids) I did some pretty stupid things. But today That isnt really a issue, Im certified to 60' which is where I want to stay when diving at MMM in a few hours (3:30). When I went to 80' with the diver the other day who was leading the dive I just happened to not look at my gauge for the brief time we passed 60' which taught me something as well. Pay as much attention to my depth as I do my air lol...

One thought I have is that I think people also need to realize all there awesome advice, experience and stories can scare someone right out of continuing to dive. I am the type of personality that isnt gonna let this type of info stop me from diving. But I will admit it does start to linger in your mind and make you think twice about continuing to dive. Even as I write this post doubt lingers in my mind, but I am the type of personality to push thru it regardless... What concerns me even more then scaring people away from the sport is that some people can let that blurr there vision and thinking capabilies and then it can become the serious issue in itself that leads to a situation where the person ends up injured or even dead because they freak out and panic becuase everything they read becomes a reality and is now happening to them. Got to love how our minds can do that to us but it is a serious concern when ever I take others out into enviroments and activities they may not be familiar with... When I do such things I touch on the dangers and possibilites but I focus on the techniques and more positive aspects of the activity so when something happens horror stories are not the first thing to go flying thru there head becuase I banged into thier head how to self arrest correctly or some other technique instead of my friend didnt do this or that and is dead....

Anyhow if anyone is going up to MMM tonight you will have the opportunity to meet this guy right here

I believe important factors that are too often overlooked are prior experience and personality. Some people before coming to scuba have had a lifetime of expeience in what others might call adventurous or hazardous occupations or environments. They know how to gauge themselves and to recognize when they are approaching the edge of their envelope. These people do a lot of research and actually know what questions to ask. They also irritate those who are into rigid rules oriented performance.

Personality plays a big role in scuba as it does in many other activities. Some people are just oriented to group things and others are more individualistic. Some are almost to the "lone wolf" status while others need the pack for comfort. Each type looks at the other with a bit of wonder and sometimes disdain.

These two things equip some people with the ability to not only survive unexpected situations; but to thrive in them.

By way of illustration; a friend and I met up at a lake not far from here after each of us had been in the "back country" of Alaska for a few days. I knew he was somewhere around because I had seen his rig parked there when I unloaded my snowmachine and set out to my place. But I had not seen him, or anyone else, during my time up river. As we were loading our snowmachines on our respective trucks he turned to me and said: "You know what we do for the heck of it is a once in a lifetime adventure fo most people that they have to screw up their courage to do".

One other factor is not to be overlooked. Capturing customers is a vital part of many businesses, including the scuba business. One way to do that is to structure instruction and certification so as to make a customer dependent for extended periods of time. Maybe that is not common. But, I have seen many examples of this as I have traveled and dove.

[Joshua Smith]

My take was the "slow down" response was to the concept of just finishing OW and wanting to be an instructor. At least mine was and I think I was clear about that.

I'm all for taking AOW so you can actually learn something from someone who has something valuable to teach. Not so keen on taking AOW because you have to have the card to dive off XYZ boat somewhere or its just a card you gotta have to enroll in a DM program.

Yeah, I understand. And I'm not targeting you, or anyone in particular. Just making a general statement about the flavor of this board. But what the OP wrote was:

And I am working towards a Dive Instructor Certification (or at least thats the plan) at minimum so this is just one of the steps I need to take in that direction as well. But I am always working on my essentials... After this I will be after the rescue diver cert as well. I am kind of a back to back guy. Now that I got my own gear and the majority of all the large purchases are out of the way. I just want to spend my money working in that direction overall to be the best diver I can be and be able to help and teach others for those who will be willing to allow me to LOL

Seems pretty benign to me- lots of newbies think they might want to go on to be instructors- I think I even entertained the thought for a while, before I realized that I was already making no money and had zero benefits as a Contractor. He didn't say he was trying to do it in 6 months, just that he had a goal of becoming an instructor some day- and then it devolved into pages of posts talking about "waiting until you're ready"- before taking AOW! Not even a Tech class, just AOW! I'm sorry, but I think that's a bit over the top.

[Joshua Smith]

Good thoughts, Josh. I was one who thought that you were going at a breakneck pace, but obviously you didn't fizzle out. You were also doing a healthy amount of non-class dives which I think is key.

I remember one of those "non class" dives in particular- you had a rubber chicken with you- don't make me dig up the pictures! Here's a question for you- we've been that deep more than once since that dive- do you think we're any safer these days than we were that time? I do. All it took was a bunch of training and experience and gear.

[Mongo]

Seems pretty benign to me- lots of newbies think they might want to go on to be instructors- I think I even entertained the thought for a while, before I realized that I was already making no money and had zero benefits as a Contractor. He didn't say he was trying to do it in 6 months, just that he had a goal of becoming an instructor some day- and then it devolved into pages of posts talking about "waiting until you're ready"- before taking AOW! Not even a Tech class, just AOW! I'm sorry, but I think that's a bit over the top.

I completely agree.

We want represent ourselves as a supportive community, right?

[mz53480]

....Seems pretty benign to me- .

I completely agree.
We want represent ourselves as a supportive community, right?

Yes. Now, give me my hood back or I'll kill you.

[citycatred]

....Seems pretty benign to me- .

I completely agree.
We want represent ourselves as a supportive community, right?

Yes. Now, give me my hood back or I'll kill you.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZ6-6RbSEg[/youtube]

had to

[Mongo]

Better not. I'll tell mom.

[Grateful Diver]

Hey Josh ... I hope my posts weren't ones you considered "over the top". I know they were rather encyclopedic and all, but I was just tryin' to give the guy some things to mull over. Actually, we ended up continuing the conversation on the phone a coupla days later. I know where he's coming from ... unfortunately, my schedule right now just doesn't allow me to jump in and help him out as quickly as either one of us would like to.

I wish scubnewb nothing but the best ... whenever and however he chooses to pursue his goals ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[ArcticDiver]

Josh, an excellent kick off to what, over time, has been a controversial topic.

I'd like to add one thing. Too many people in their enthusiasm for their particular style of diving are dismissive of other styles. Then there are some who are very evangelical about a particular style of diving and phrase their advice that their style is the only safe style without recognizing the history and purpose of their style.

In religion there is a saying to the effect that a person shouldn't burn so bright in their enthusiasm their flames burn the wings off others. I think the idea pertains here.

I was extremely fortunate that my early instructors were student oriented and matched their instruction to me. They never stinted on teaching me what I needed to know. At the same time they made sure I waw aquainted with the difference between diving style and diving safely. I wish the same for each new diver.

[Scrappy]

Josh,
I am glad you posted this. I am new to the board and was urged to join by a friend. After reading a few posts I was wondering why people would post just to get grilled. In fact we were discussing this in the local shop today . Many divers just want some advice from more experienced divers and to make new dive buddies. This should be a great resource.


Go Ducks!

[kdupreez]

Very good post Josh,

I totally agree, education should not be discouraged, I have found that someone would go do the dives or find a way to push the envelope anyway, whether you help them do it safely or not..

So when someone is all enthused about racing ahead, I would not discourage them, I'd much rather encourage them to do some "mentoring" dives with me or even start with that class that they want to do and then do a few dives and present them with the challenges and issues that could arise from those "next level" dives within a controlled environment..

People very quickly realize that although they have the passion and enthusiasm to do those dives, them lacking the "capacity" for those dives, puts them in a place where they are no longer in a comfortable operating zone and they easily make very very arbitrary mistakes.. Then the picture becomes more clear that required capacity is only established through education and experience. And the key is to help divers on that road, not just discourage them and point them to a class sign up sheet, but rather mentor and build their confidence.

To be fully comfortable, competent and confident in your diving at that edge where you want to operate, you have to have the education, equipment and more importantly the experience.

But, like you said, encourage enrolling in an AOW class with someone like Bob, then you will be challenged in a controlled environment and build up the skill and competence to approach the "next level" dives much more confidently.

I was one of those people whose chased certifications for the sake of having them and found at the end when I reached my "technical trimix" certs, I was not comfortable and confident in doing those dives.. why.. well, because I lacked the education, proper equipment and gradual build up of experience to be competent.. Well, I went back and fixed all that, but wish I had the foresight to do that from the get go..

So all that being said.. I would highly recommend a class with a good instructor over just reading the book or internet posts on how to do those "next level" dives jumping in and trying it by trial and error.. you have a VERY small margin of error in an environment that doesn't naturally sustain human life..

There are a wealth of mentors in this area that would happily take divers under their wing and gradually help them along the path to get them to their goal.. There is nothing more satisfying to me than seeing the excitement on someone's eyes after a dive and they loved every minute of what they saw down there..

We were all once new divers and had role models to help us along the way and I feel its now my time to pay that forward..

Ultimately, thats whats this diving thing is all about.. its about having FUN!! and I'm ALL for anything that can help people safely have the most amount of FUN in their diving!!

.

..

[mjachetta]

Thanks Josh,

[LCF]

I certainly tried very hard not to bash the OP in that thread over the head.

I do think there are AOW classes, and AOW classes. Some are designed for the diver to go into immediately from OW, and those classes are generally as much for greater experience than they are for actual learning, because the diver usually isn't in the right space to absorb a great deal more information. Classes like Bob's really require that the diver wait and get a little more underwater time, because they expect a somewhat higher level of capacity from the get-go. A lot depends on what you want or need from the class. I needed an AOW class immediately, because I wasn't willing to get in the water with anyone but an instructor. I got the class I signed up for, which was not very useful except to give me five more "babysat" dives.

I do think -- and I think many if not most of us thing -- that people ought to slow down on heading for instructor status. Even you, Josh, had you gone for it! Having diving talent is one thing, but having enough experience to offer a balanced and solid approach to things, based on diving in multiple environments and experiencing a spectrum of issues, just plain requires time to accrue. I wish more people took time to smell the roses, and do a bunch of diving for enjoyment before they think about becoming pros. I know a local DM who burned out and took six months off because he basically hadn't done a SINGLE "fun" dive in so long, he had forgotten why he was in the sport.

The biggest thing is that I think we should all try to be more polite and respectful of people who come on with such posts. Even if my initial reaction to something is "Oh, my God, this guy is going to DIE!", it's unlikely that I'm going to influence him in a positive way if I'm snarky, sarcastic, or too much in his face. Trying to see the situation from his viewpoint (and remembering what WE were like as novice divers) is much more productive. If he's the kind of guy who needs to be kicked in the teeth to avoid doing something stupid, he's not going to listen to being kicked in the teeth by a bunch of strangers on the internet. (There is a CLASSIC thread on the Deco Stop that illustrates this, where a guy was mad at his instructor for doing something, and even the head of his instructor's agency came on and told the guy he was wrong, but he never changed his mind one bit.) If he's a reasonable person, a reasonable approach is likely to be effective, especially if he hears the same thing from a bunch of people.

Josh, we need to go diving again.

[lamont]

A recent thread about taking an AOW class got me thinking about things. As I stated earlier, nothing in that thread crossed any lines, but it did make me uncomfortable. One thing in particular was the "Whoa, slow down, there" message to a new diver who was simply looking to take his AOW class.

Most of the concern I saw (and certainly felt) was more triggered around the posters determination to go down the DM and instructor route very quickly.

Conventional wisdom around here is that divers should progress very conservatively in their education. Which is fine, for most divers. But not ALL divers. In my first 9 months of diving, I took OW, AOW, Rescue, and logged 100 dives. At 9 months of diving, my 101st dive was my first dive in Doubles on day 1 of Advanced Nitrox and Deco procedures, and less than a year after that, I bought a Rebreather. I took a lot of flack for all that. "Too Far, Too Fast" was something I heard more than once- but only from people who never dived with me. I wouldn't change very much about how I did what I did, if I could.

Obviously, we've all heard stories about guys who did similar training arcs, and then died on the Doria a year after they took Open Water. I'm not suggesting that it's wrong to caution people away from diving outside their limits. But if you haven't dived with someone, how do you know where their limits are? In the case in point, the poster was looking to take AOW, so that he could start diving to 130', which some of you may consider a huge step forward, but I don't. It's still within the CESA range. (admittedly, I hope none of us ever have to do one from 130', or any depth, really.) My feeling about this is different from some of you all, because I know that some divers are going to go deeper than they're trained for, once they realize that there's nobody waiting at 60' or 130' demanding to see their C cards. I did more than a few ill advised dives my first year or so, and I think that a lot of other divers do, too. Discouraging them from further training seems like a bad thing, to me. They might just learn something that will save their life someday.

I don't really care if its "within CESA range" the bigger issue is that one you start going below 60 feet you start getting into CO2 hit territory. And its not so much the spectacular deaths, its more the divers who are hell bent on technical diving and then a few years later are quietly selling their gear because they went too fast and didn't build up the experience and comfort. Based on the divers that I know have taken CO2 hits, I often wonder about how many of the divers who are selling their dive gear to "spend time with their family" have really just had a very bad dive.

And of the ones that have had bad dives, some of those have been "Adventurous" and "Hazardous" to a 'T', done all their supposed homework and they've wound up overconfident and miscalculated and had bad dives as a result.

Just the fact that you didn't, doesn't mean that you're necessarily the appropriate role model. Just because you wouldn't change anything about what you did doesn't mean its easy for a random person on the internet to replicate it.

And I'm not sure who on that thread was implying that the OP shouldn't get more training. They should get a whole *lot* more training before embarking on instructor training. Ideally take all the usual RTSC courses (AOW, Night/Low-Viz, Nav, Rescue) along with DAN training and fundies and/or essentials, then go out and get at least 100 non-training dives before starting their DM, and then take it really easy getting into instructing. Instructors should have something to offer students other than just raw enthusiasm.

[coulterboy]

Hey Phillip,

Remember what I said when we talked in the garage at my house? You're going to be stirring up a lot of issues when you start posting on this board. Some "Pros", and some "Cons". Just get a good perspective on the responses posted. Believe me, before this thread ends up in "Timbuktu", you will have an idea who the "pricks" are, and who the desirable or would be potential buddies are. There's a lot to be learned from the responses. Likewise, there's also a lot of negative that would come out of it. Follow your dream dude! The only thing that could stop you right now is "doubt". You have the momentum, there's no stopping now. Life is a learning curve. There's a lot of good peeps giving you advices that would make you the best diver you can ever be, in the shortest amount of time, the most logical way, and perhaps the most economical way (in ways of not changing from one equipment to another, or taking certs left and right, but still not perfect in bouyancy and trim). We've all been there, done that!

Anytime you wanna dive with me, for as long as I'm free, I'll dive with you. See ya at MMM one of these days.

Exactly the point Josh. That's why I responded this way on that post.

By the way, I dove with Phillip tonight at the MMM group. He was my buddy. Dude, I'll dive with you anytime, anywhere.
Now you know what night diving is all about. I hope you enjoyed the dive.

[Joshua Smith]

A recent thread about taking an AOW class got me thinking about things. As I stated earlier, nothing in that thread crossed any lines, but it did make me uncomfortable. One thing in particular was the "Whoa, slow down, there" message to a new diver who was simply looking to take his AOW class.

Most of the concern I saw (and certainly felt) was more triggered around the posters determination to go down the DM and instructor route very quickly.

Fwiw, I read your entire post, and I don't disagree with any of your points, per se. But the OP never said he wanted to become a dm or instructor "very quickly", did he? Just that that was the eventual goal, correct?