What would I do if.....?

[Grateful Diver]

OK what does detuned mean... oh and I was thinking about all of this yesterday and i was thinking to myself... well in a deepwater scnerio, wouldnt it be possible to shut the valve to slow or stop the flow all together so you have less stress and pressure to get to the top. I think that path of thinking came from watching the movie Sanctum the otherday and thinking about when the son takes the pony bottle and just takes the breathes off it he needs with no regulator at the end of the movie. Of course i thought well it is just a movie, but that doesnt mean its not possible. I dont dive deeper then 60ft unless i happen to wonder over the 60 mark and not notice then I turn right around... so at this point I would probably just run with a ascent as trained. But it is something that I was thinking about and wondering about.

Detuned in this case means cranking the little adjustment knob on the end of your second stage to the most closed position it will go. This allows the spring to offer the most resistance to the force of the diaphragm opening the valve to let the air come through ... basically reducing the risk of free-flow as much as you can using the available adjustment.

Sometimes this will stop a freeflow ... sometimes not.

Sanctum was absolutely the most awful and unrealistic diving movie I've ever seen. Considering that James Cameron is a diver, I was superbly disappointed by how inaccurate it was.

When you open the valve on a tank, without a regulator, you're going to get air coming out at whatever pressure happens to be in the tank. Even on a small cylinder like he was using, you'd have to be extremely dextrous underwater to only open it adequately to not create a gush of air coming out. What he did looked easy ... it's not ... particularly not if you're doing it while wearing drygloves or heavy neo gloves, where you have little dexterity.

Don't try anything you saw in that movie at home ... you're liable to end up like most of the folks in the movie did ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[CaptnJack]

Sure, reasonable answers. Like so many things, the real answer is "it depends."

Why they are going up, depth they started, depth you noticed, depth you caught them (if at all), rate, deco left to do if any... The list of "factors" is just endless. So I've still never really been able to figure out a way to express it all concisely.

[Grateful Diver]

the only reason I would shut off the valve is to stop the freeflow. I would not shut it off and leave it shut off. That guarntees you will not have any air available. Even with a free flowing reg, you still have air available to breathe until the tank runs dry.

If you have a buddy, the preferable way to deal with a freeflow is this ...

- Go on your buddy's air and then shut your tank down.
- Wait about 10 seconds and then slowly turn it back on again ... sometimes this will solve the problem. Stay on your buddy's air until you've ascertained that it has.
- If it does not solve the problem, shut it down again and begin an immediate ascent. Do not turn your air back on unless you've determined that not turning it back on will result in an OOA on your buddy's tank. That way, if you MUST breathe off a free-flowing regulator, you've put yourself a lot closer to the surface ... where having to deal with all the noise and bubbles will be a stressor for a lesser period of time.

Always try to resolve your problems in the way that produces the less stress ... because stress takes your mind off what you're supposed to be thinking about, and can cause you to make less than optimal decisions.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[scubnewb]

Ahhh okay thats what I was thinking it meant but wasnt sure, my primary has one of those knobs and i usually kep it in about the middle as i dont like my reg to flow super easy when I breath and I really dont like when it is set the otherway where you can feel the air needs you to take a little extra effort to flow to you. In the middle it flow well enough I am compfortable and at the same time it kind of helps me keep my breathing a little lower and in control.... if any of that makes any sense lol... I have tweeked around with it under water a few times but always find that I return to the original positioning... my secondary has a switch for pre dive and dive as well... not sure what that all does, but I switch it back and forth when ever I enter or exit the water lol...

As far as santum goes it was entertaining but i saw alot that made me go, ummm that cant be right lol... And yeah I looked at that scene and was like that seems possible but very difficult... but when its either try that or die anyhow, I suppose I would make the attempt myself... I personally would of chilled at the tank with the opening up above for a while before going that route lol... that and i usually carry a emergency locator GPS on me when doing any kind of hiking, moutain climbing, cave exploring or similar non diving adventures... so i am surprised no one had one of those with them

Anyhow the free flow thing regarding turning back your valve seems like it could save your life if you had the practice down if you ever got in that type of scenerio... but like I said, I stay at 60' or less right now anyhow and getting my buddies air is the first thing I will be trying to do before attempting to fix the reg or shutting down my air.

OK what does detuned mean... oh and I was thinking about all of this yesterday and i was thinking to myself... well in a deepwater scnerio, wouldnt it be possible to shut the valve to slow or stop the flow all together so you have less stress and pressure to get to the top. I think that path of thinking came from watching the movie Sanctum the otherday and thinking about when the son takes the pony bottle and just takes the breathes off it he needs with no regulator at the end of the movie. Of course i thought well it is just a movie, but that doesnt mean its not possible. I dont dive deeper then 60ft unless i happen to wonder over the 60 mark and not notice then I turn right around... so at this point I would probably just run with a ascent as trained. But it is something that I was thinking about and wondering about.

Many 2nd stage regs have a knob on the side that allows you to somewhat control the air flow out of the reg. By detuning it, I turned the knob to the lowest flow point. The result is, you will feel the reg is harder to breathe. I usually adjust my primary reg a few times each dive depending on my workload.

the only reason I would shut off the valve is to stop the freeflow. I would not shut it off and leave it shut off. That guarntees you will not have any air available. Even with a free flowing reg, you still have air available to breathe until the tank runs dry.

[pensacoladiver]

the only reason I would shut off the valve is to stop the freeflow. I would not shut it off and leave it shut off. That guarntees you will not have any air available. Even with a free flowing reg, you still have air available to breathe until the tank runs dry.

If you have a buddy, the preferable way to deal with a freeflow is this ...

- Go on your buddy's air and then shut your tank down.
- Wait about 10 seconds and then slowly turn it back on again ... sometimes this will solve the problem. Stay on your buddy's air until you've ascertained that it has.
- If it does not solve the problem, shut it down again and begin an immediate ascent. Do not turn your air back on unless you've determined that not turning it back on will result in an OOA on your buddy's tank. That way, if you MUST breathe off a free-flowing regulator, you've put yourself a lot closer to the surface ... where having to deal with all the noise and bubbles will be a stressor for a lesser period of time.

Always try to resolve your problems in the way that produces the less stress ... because stress takes your mind off what you're supposed to be thinking about, and can cause you to make less than optimal decisions.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks Bob. I guess I should have clarified in my post that I was still talking about my original story of dealing with the free flowing reg on my own... no buddy around.

[Paloma140]

Thank you all for sharing your strategies and advice. I admit that I have been following this story a bit obsessively - I think it is because I am newly OWC. After my 4 OW class dives my next dive was Key West where the dive master took us to the Vandenberg. To his credit he was very calm and careful and when I expressed some concern about my experience level he said, "I'll know immediately if you can't handle it." It was my first time doing a boat (backwards) entry, current, depth, and inside a wreck. We were just 3 clients with him that day and he kept close watch but I now realize that there was so much that could have happened that the 3 of us couldn't have handled well (the other 2 were both under 20 dives). The second day we went out with him another diver joined who had been on 100s of dives and he was the one to run out of air on the rope up. The DM handled it really well - but if something had gone wrong with one of the rest of us we would have been poorly equipped to manage it. I am going to insist that I get more dives under 60 ft and then get advanced training before going deeper.
Thanks again.
Ann

[pensacoladiver]

Thank you all for sharing your strategies and advice. I admit that I have been following this story a bit obsessively - I think it is because I am newly OWC. After my 4 OW class dives my next dive was Key West where the dive master took us to the Vandenberg. To his credit he was very calm and careful and when I expressed some concern about my experience level he said, "I'll know immediately if you can't handle it." It was my first time doing a boat (backwards) entry, current, depth, and inside a wreck. We were just 3 clients with him that day and he kept close watch but I now realize that there was so much that could have happened that the 3 of us couldn't have handled well (the other 2 were both under 20 dives). The second day we went out with him another diver joined who had been on 100s of dives and he was the one to run out of air on the rope up. The DM handled it really well - but if something had gone wrong with one of the rest of us we would have been poorly equipped to manage it. I am going to insist that I get more dives under 60 ft and then get advanced training before going deeper.
Thanks again.
Ann

Don't take this the wrong way.... 4 dives, then diving on the Vandenberg. Welcome to Florida. You were more than likely just slightly in over your head.

Disclaimer: I always feel a little guilty saying that. On my 2nd dive after OW certification, I was 15 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico, in something like 95 feet of water hunting Trigger fish with a pole spear I WAS in over my head.

[Furnari]

While we're talking about free flows...I've had two under almost identical situations, almost exactly a year apart. Both in Clear Lake (Oregon), and both immediately after descending to 75 feet. The 37-degree water, my air hoggishness, and my ancient plastic-bodied Conshelf second stage all contributed. In each case, I waved my buddies bye (3 person buddy group), and ascended while "sipping". The first time another diver in a group had the same situation, so we shut off each other's air on the surface. The second time I was by myself and facing a long swim back to the entry point. I was sooo frickin' furious with myself about having to end the dive that I didn't even think to take off the B.C. to shut off the air on the surface and nearly ran the tank out. Anyways, the one positive that I took from these was that I didn't panic and I made more or less normal ascents. The negatives? I need to work on being able to reach my first stage, and my solution clearly wasn't the best approach. This "what if" post is definitely food for thought. BTW- I still consider myself a new diver, with about 170 dives.

[lamont]

OK what does detuned mean... oh and I was thinking about all of this yesterday and i was thinking to myself... well in a deepwater scnerio, wouldnt it be possible to shut the valve to slow or stop the flow all together so you have less stress and pressure to get to the top. I think that path of thinking came from watching the movie Sanctum the otherday and thinking about when the son takes the pony bottle and just takes the breathes off it he needs with no regulator at the end of the movie. Of course i thought well it is just a movie, but that doesnt mean its not possible.

A teenage girl in oregon just died to a cerebral arterial gas embolism from sucking straight off a helium tank at a party. Same thing can happen doing that with a scuba tank. I would suggest not trying this. And if you ever really needed to do it, you should do something like form a crude tube with your fist so that it expands to closer to ambient before it goes in your mouth (wasting a lot of gas, but at least not blowing your lungs).

I used to think a *lot* about feathering my valve on a single tank at depth during a free-flow (regulator still hooked up to tank). Now I've either got doubles or else I can get gas from my buddy.

[BASSMAN]

Something else to think about after the events this weekend...If, after surfacing from a dive, a group of other divers is waiting for you on the beach with a DAN O2 kit, asking you to use it...DO IT. I know we all learn in Rescue that divers typically refuse to go on O2. We were joking the other day that you can tell the difference between a rec diver and a tec diver by asking them to go on O2 at the end of the dive. The rec diver will say "no thanks, I don't need it". The tec diver will say "Free O2? Sweet!". Going on O2 makes you feel better after the dive, doesn't hurt anything, and may keep you from getting DCS. The people asking you to use it saw something that concerned them enough to meet you on the beach. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

I liked the flavor of this post!
Good stuff!

As to some other stuff?

I've met "Rescue Diver's" with less than 30 dives.
And they are still alive and diving today!
Not my personal choice of training advice but,
Things that make you go, " huh "


Let's hope this thread will not have to get locked.
I think it has potential for some more good nuggets.

These individual post are just opinions of a single diver

[Jeff Pack]

If a reg free flows, how much air is it releasing, and how quickly does it deplete your tank?

[Joshua Smith]

If a reg free flows, how much air is it releasing, and how quickly does it deplete your tank?

About 7, and possibly as fast as a microwave cheesedog.


Seriously, it's releasing the gas way too fast, and it's releasing it faster if you're deeper.

[girldiver]

In reading the discussion here...I have to say...kudos to everyone for thoughtful questions and answers. I think this particular thread is the epitome of what a perfect forum would be with the best of the experienced instructors in the Northwest mentoring the newest avid divers around.

Wow...

I really really want a "Like" button at the bottom of the posts...

Ok...back to the program (I know you may not believe this...but I have nothing new to say here...)

[CaptnJack]

If a reg free flows, how much air is it releasing, and how quickly does it deplete your tank?

About 7, and possibly as fast as a microwave cheesedog.


Seriously, it's releasing the gas way too fast, and it's releasing it faster if you're deeper.

+1

One thing which always concerned me about pony bottles is that between the noise, the shiitstorm of bubbles everywhere, probable change in depth (face it everyone is massively distracted, you're probably going up or down a bit), and the general franticness of a free flow its not at all obvious that you'll end up with a fully functioning regulator in your mouth.

[lamont]

So...

What would you do if your buddy needed gas?
What would you do if you bit through your mouthpiece?
What would you do if the exhaust valve on your reg let water into your mouth?
What would you do if your mouthpiece fell off?
What would you do if your LP inflator jammed on?
What would you do if your LP inflator fell off?
What would you do if (one of) your wing/BCD dumps unscrewed and came off?
What would you do if you felt panic building at depth?
What would you do if you had an emergency at depth under the water taxi lane in cove 2?
What would you do if you were at 100 feet in an Al80 with 1000 psi in the tank? ....and under the water taxi lane?
What would you do if your octo/backup was free flowing and you didn't notice it?
What would you do if your buddy kicked your mask off?
What would you do if your buddy kicked your reg out of your mouth?
What would you do if you turned around and all you could see of your buddies was a huge silt cloud?
What would you do if you drained your main tank and your pony bottle reg had been free flowing the whole dive?
What would you do if you drained your main tank and your pony bottle reg was trapped behind you and could not be deployed?
What would you do if you drained your main tank and your pony bottle had been leaking out the tank neck for the past week and you didn't know how much pressure it had in it?
What would you do if your drysuit seemed to be dumping poorly?
What do you do to get gas out of the feet of your drysuit?
What if you are low on gas and light and do not want to cork, how do you get as much gas as possible out of all your buoyancy devices?
What would you do if you put on a new undergarment without changing your weighting and started to cork from 70 feet?

And for bonus points, how would you prevent a lot of these problems before getting into the water?

[Joshua Smith]

So...

What would you do if your buddy needed gas?
What would you do if you bit through your mouthpiece?
What would you do if the exhaust valve on your reg let water into your mouth?
What would you do if your mouthpiece fell off?
What would you do if your LP inflator jammed on?
What would you do if your LP inflator fell off?
What would you do if (one of) your wing/BCD dumps unscrewed and came off?
What would you do if you felt panic building at depth?
What would you do if you had an emergency at depth under the water taxi lane in cove 2?
What would you do if you were at 100 feet in an Al80 with 1000 psi in the tank? ....and under the water taxi lane?
What would you do if your octo/backup was free flowing and you didn't notice it?
What would you do if your buddy kicked your mask off?
What would you do if your buddy kicked your reg out of your mouth?
What would you do if you turned around and all you could see of your buddies was a huge silt cloud?
What would you do if you drained your main tank and your pony bottle reg had been free flowing the whole dive?
What would you do if you drained your main tank and your pony bottle reg was trapped behind you and could not be deployed?
What would you do if you drained your main tank and your pony bottle had been leaking out the tank neck for the past week and you didn't know how much pressure it had in it?
What would you do if your drysuit seemed to be dumping poorly?
What do you do to get gas out of the feet of your drysuit?
What if you are low on gas and light and do not want to cork, how do you get as much gas as possible out of all your buoyancy devices?
What would you do if you put on a new undergarment without changing your weighting and started to cork from 70 feet?

And for bonus points, how would you prevent a lot of these problems before getting into the water?

I'll play. (good post, btw)

For the bonus points: I'd take up golf. But its my understanding that far more people die on golf courses every year than people scuba diving. Even when you factor in the people who die scuba diving on golf courses.

[CaptnJack]

Golf is a nasty sport

[ljjames]

If a reg free flows, how much air is it releasing, and how quickly does it deplete your tank?

ask and yea shall receive....


http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/ar ... conds.html

[whatevah]

I have no intention of pointing any fingers or engaging in "shoulda/coulda/woulda". But I do have one question that I hope the investigation into this tragedy will find the answer to:

What made him sink?

He was doing a rapid ascent, but somehow wound up back on the bottom. Knowing that the air in his BCD or dry suit would have been expanding as he went up, I have to wonder how he ended up descending again. My gut tells me that if we get the answer to this question, we might be able to glean something from this awful event that can help keep other divers a tad more safe. Just a thought, for whatever it's worth.

Assuming that the diver was wearing a drysuit, here's how it happens... diver makes uncontrolled ascent and is unconscious at the surface. The BCD probably has the same volume of gas in it as when the diver descended - most likely very little. The drysuit exhaust valve is likely set at a normal comfortable position - that is, it won't hold terribly much pressure over ambient. At the surface the valve will burp until the diver is minimally positive. Slight bobbing is enough to shift the balance - compression takes over and the diver sinks.

[whatevah]

Had the same question myself. Once you ascend, you don't just sink like that.

Much as I hate random speculation: if a diver were to experience an arterial gas embolism during a rapid ascent, they might aspirate enough water to become negatively buoyant. Maybe. Or maybe something else happened. Or not.

The training manuals say that the buoyancy of a "wet" drowning victim is not much different from a "dry" drowning victim, and that makes sense to me. Even if water fully displaced gas from the lungs, I'm thinking that would amount to a 4 or 5 pound difference - small compared to the rapidly increasing buoyancy of the suit/BCD.

[Jeff Pack]

figuring the weight of water, full capacity of lungs and stomach, you might be abit low, but not that far off.

[Jeff Pack]

If a reg free flows, how much air is it releasing, and how quickly does it deplete your tank?

ask and yea shall receive....


http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/ar ... conds.html

thank you Laura, good read! so about 3 minutes, interesting. So time enough to buddy up, switch regs, and thats about it.

Less time if the LP hose burst.

[Nwbrewer]

If a reg free flows, how much air is it releasing, and how quickly does it deplete your tank?

ask and yea shall receive....


http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/ar ... conds.html

thank you Laura, good read! so about 3 minutes, interesting. So time enough to buddy up, switch regs, and thats about it.

Less time if the LP hose burst.

If it takes my buddy 3 minutes to get to me with a reg in hand we're going to have a very heated discussion when we get to the surface. In the scenario I described above, I think it was about 1.5 minutes from he signal, so having his tank back on and working so we could exit.

[spatman]

If a reg free flows, how much air is it releasing, and how quickly does it deplete your tank?

ask and yea shall receive....


http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/ar ... conds.html

thank you Laura, good read! so about 3 minutes, interesting. So time enough to buddy up, switch regs, and thats about it.

Less time if the LP hose burst.

If it takes my buddy 3 minutes to get to me with a reg in hand we're going to have a very heated discussion when we get to the surface. In the scenario I described above, I think it was about 1.5 minutes from he signal, so having his tank back on and working so we could exit.

+1. It should take no more than 10-15 seconds for your buddy to see your light signals and reach you. Any longer than that, and you are way too far apart.

[Furnari]

An unexpected side effect of my last free flow was that the hose froze to my glove- I was holding it at the base of the second stage to "sip", and when I got to the surface I was slapping it, swishing it, cussing it, etc. Something to keep in the back of your mind if it happens in cold freshwater- you let go of your reg to free up your hand but the reg sticks with you, blowing bubbles the whole time. As far as the time to drain the tank, the info aboves seems about right- I was using an LP 95, so it lasted a little longer.