What would I do if.....?

[Norris]

Unfortunately what has me even creating this thread is another thread that doesnt really emit any good news. However; I know there are newer divers and even some not so new that want to learn and avoid any mishaps that could happen to them. I deleted my post from that thread and moved it here.

The question was:
Is there something we can learn from this event?

My answer:
Considering we don't know exactly what happened and the diver is the only one who does, most likely not. We don't like to speculate on things like this and its best just to take the lesson that things can go wrong and sometimes do. Drive around when not diving and mull things over in your head. "What would I do if?" "How would I handle something like this....?"
Proactivily make the unavoidable, avoidable.

I do this A LOT! Especially when considering dives that a bolt to the surface is not an option, not that it really ever should be.

Maybe some people have some specific questions that they have going on in their head.

Maybe some of the veterens can share answers to those questions...

This is not a thread to advertise your favorite agencies or why anyones training is better than others. I offer this thread as a medium for newer divers to ask specific questions, and others to offer suggestions/advice.
Also please do not speculate here or in the other thread about current events.

Maybe this thread will help, maybe not. I just wanted to, at least, offer it. Even if it gets people considering things while driving around in their car, it has served a purpose.

[airsix]

I'm not a fan of Mike Tyson, but he did say something profound when he stated "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." I do believe in the effectiveness of visualization training, however it is much more effective when you have previously and repeatedly performed the actual sequence of actions you are visualizing. The reality is that you can mentally prepare, but you will never know for sure how you will handle an emergency until you actually experience that situation.

The good news is that there are ways to experience diving emergencies in a safe, yet realistic environment. We have at least 4 local instructors (representing 3 different agencies) who teach in a manner that allows you to experience emergency situations in a controlled yet realistic manner. I'm not talking about a pre-planned skill practice. That's not a simulation. Real emergency simulations are much different. Real simulations are a punch in the face, so to speak. Going through this type of training can be stressful but highly rewarding. I'm not pushing a specific class, agency, or instructor. I am saying that if you want to be prepared to handle an emergency you have to practice handling that emergency in as realistic a manner as is practical. When you do you'll feel much closer to knowing the answer to "how would I handle that?"

Ben

ps - Anyone can feel free to PM me if you'd like to have a private conversation about this subject.

[pensacoladiver]

I'm not a fan of Mike Tyson, but he did say something profound when he stated "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."

Nice, I've never heard that one. Along the same lines, I have heard/used "The enemy has a vote in your battle plans".

[dwashbur]

I have no intention of pointing any fingers or engaging in "shoulda/coulda/woulda". But I do have one question that I hope the investigation into this tragedy will find the answer to:

What made him sink?

He was doing a rapid ascent, but somehow wound up back on the bottom. Knowing that the air in his BCD or dry suit would have been expanding as he went up, I have to wonder how he ended up descending again. My gut tells me that if we get the answer to this question, we might be able to glean something from this awful event that can help keep other divers a tad more safe. Just a thought, for whatever it's worth.

[Jeff Pack]

Had the same question myself. Once you ascend, you don't just sink like that.

[Joshua Smith]

Had the same question myself. Once you ascend, you don't just sink like that.

Much as I hate random speculation: if a diver were to experience an arterial gas embolism during a rapid ascent, they might aspirate enough water to become negatively buoyant. Maybe. Or maybe something else happened. Or not.

[Grateful Diver]

Actually you can just sink like that ... if you swim up, then as soon as you stop propelling yourself upward you can easily sink again, if you're at a negative state of buoyancy when you stop kicking. Recall a couple years ago the young man who died in Cove 1 ... he bolted for the surface after running out of air, but was found on the bottom.

Also consider what would happen if you have a flooded drysuit or wing ... water will displace whatever air doesn't get trapped, and this could cause a change in your buoyancy state from positive to negative ... it doesn't take much to get you started sinking again, and once you start, compression will do the rest.

As to what would you do if ...

Number one most important thing to remember is that you dive with a buddy for a reason ... spare resources. I've experienced people getting low on air, and their first instinct was to turn tail and make a beeline for shore ... never stopping to think that they're kicking away from their reserve air supply. Remember what we all leaned in OW class ... STOP ... THINK ... ACT ... those aren't just words, and no one agency owns them. We all heard that message in our introductory class for a reason ... because it's the easiest and best way to problem-solve underwater. When you react, you rely on instincts that our species have evolved over millenia as a means of survival ... but while the flight instinct tends to work pretty well in our natural environment, it almost always works to our detriment underwater. Flight is rarely the best way to get yourself out of a bad situation.

STOP ... THINK ... ACT ... almost every problem you can imagine underwater is solveable underwater if you but follow that simple adage.

People bolt for all sorts of reasons ... most of them easily solveable if they'd just stop and give themselves a chance to think through a solution to the problem. Bolting is a sure sign that the person's facing a problem they don't know a solution to ... that's usually how a panic cycle begins.

Think about this for a minute ... is there something you did in your last class that you hated doing? Something that caused you stress? Something that you've avoided practicing because you disliked it so much?

If there is ... that's the very skill you most need to practice. Get with a buddy you trust, go somewhere "safe" ... no current, relatively shallow ... and practice that skill. Face your demons ... we all have them ... because it's easier to potty-train that little gremlin on your terms ... when you are prepared to think about it. And those are the very skills that you may rely on someday to keep you out of a stressful situation.

The best accident is the one that doesn't happen ... the one you saw coming and took steps to prevent ... the one you KNOW you're prepared to deal with. When you're confident in your skill set, little problems just don't become big problems ... you just deal with them before it gets to that point, and that's how accidents are prevented from happening.

We're all unique ... we each have our own gremlins ... and we all know what our gremlins are. Get out there and work on yours ... whether it's clearing a mask, sharing air, or just learning how to be a better dive buddy. We won't all like to admit it, but we all know what we're not comfortable doing. Go work on getting comfortable in those things ... then you'll be better prepared and more confident that you can rely on those tools when you need to.

And then you won't have to ask "what would I do if ..." ... you'll know ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[spatman]

Great post, Bob.

[scubnewb]

I actully wondered the exact same thing about the bouyancy of the diver... As far as speculation goes I dont think to speculate, ponder and entertain what if's is a horrible thing. I also dont think anyone is pointing fingers at anyone nor would anyone attempt to do so. I can only imagine how terrible it would be to be one of those individual that was there.

On the otherhand I followed the story very closely and was keeping in touch with some of the people down at the site during the ordeal so naturally I am very taken and curious about the whole thing. I was supposed to be down there at C2 diving as well at the same time but I overslept as i get to do alot and also lost contact with myother divebuddy that I was gonna dive with later in the day as well. So with less then 20 dives its natural for me to have questions and thoughts and to think, what if that was me? And want to take a look at myself and my diving and say what can I do better to avoid a situation like this? Its not to be insensitive to the event its that I am a true beleiver of taking incidents like this and examining them and asking question in a quest to find the error that may occured and find new ways to avoid repeating history... That is how we as humans are able to advance where other species do not and can not.

I will say this in conclusion, I called a dive today as I was not fully compfortable with the conditions/circumstances I would of been diving within due to such things being on my mind whereas in the past I may of went ahead and did the dive anyhow and worked my way thru the slight uncompfortable feeling I had today.

Had the same question myself. Once you ascend, you don't just sink like that.

Much as I hate random speculation: if a diver were to experience an arterial gas embolism during a rapid ascent, they might aspirate enough water to become negatively buoyant. Maybe. Or maybe something else happened. Or not.

[ArcticDiver]

Over my life this has been my favorite subject: "What If?" In a variety of occupations from flying, to backcountry travel and living to EMS to .... the question the wise person asks is: "What If"

The answer is one word: "Plan". By definition a Plan is a foundation for decision making. Very few things go according to a person's training or practice. In all the emergencies over my life I can remember very few that went straight by the checklist. Why the Airbus that went into the river in NY was a successful event because the Captain had a plan and was able to deviate from the checklist and make a successful landing. According to reports the only major problem occured because the emergency checklist had a step that was critical for this specific event too far down on the list.

The second thing is to practice emergencies. There is lots of discussion about how many people need to be in a diving party to be safe. Most of the emergencies I've encountered in diving were caused by my "buddy" either making a bad decision or not correctly operating his/her equipment. So, I practice recovery from every conceiveable situation I can think of. If it is something that could actually kill me I'll ask a trusted person along, just in case.

Lastly, take good care of the kit. I've got a lot of almost unused equipment that I've carried into the off-road country or diving or ? just in case. So, with well maintained equipment and backups as needed the chances of not surviving are very low.

BUT, if you go into extreme conditions long enough the chances are you will get bit. So, accept the worst that can happen. If you can't accept that, don't go.

Just a few thoughts I hope are helpful.

[LCF]

I think one of the lessons you can learn from this is that the biggest imperative for buddies and rescuers is not to create another victim. This is one of the central themes of the PADI Rescue class (one of which Peter started last night).

This diver's buddy had to make that decision, in deciding not to follow him up at the rate he was going. I remember, back a number of years ago, when I went out to do a skills dive with Captn Jack. My buoyancy stank, and I corked from 20 feet or so. Richard posted a question, on ScubaBoard IIRC, about what one should do when one's buddy corked. It embarrassed me at the time, but it's a real question, and this diver had to face it . . . and will forever have to ask herself what would have happened if she had chosen differently. Maybe he wouldn't be dead, and maybe they both would be.

Similarly, someone got hurt in the recovery effort. Again, always compare what you are undertaking to what your skills and experience are; there is no point at all in getting someone hurt recovering a body.

There is also a huge lesson/question for those of us who teach or assist in teaching, about how we can better strategize to prevent a student from being able to be "lost". I know Peter and I have already had some discussions about running the AOW deep dive, and I think we'll change some procedures as a result.

[kitsapdiver]

Lynne,

Just out of curiosity, if it doesn't reveal proprietary information, how will you be modifying the procedures you use in your class?

When an AOW class only has 4 or 5 dives and 4 or 5 missions or goals to accomplish it doesn't leave a lot of time for actual training. It seems to me that if you only have one dive dedicated to being the deep dive that it doesn't do a lot in the way of instruction. I think we would be far better served to spend the lecture time talking about deep stops, and some basic principles, and then practice the in water skills necessary to execute the theory.

I think a class like that could be much better served by working on accents, buoyancy, addressing some of the skills from OW, but off the bottom while maintaining some kind of depth control, and then simulate accents from shallow depths. Make an ascent on a couple dives from 40 fsw with stops at 20, 15, and 10 feet for a minute each, and do it on a line, and in blue water.

Once those accent skills have been simulated and the instructor is confident in the divers ability to make a safe accent than you can do a 'checkout' dive to 80 or 100 fsw so that the instructor can evaluate the divers mindset.

I think in general blue water accents or accents up a line on a lift bag or smb aren't practiced enough. Those skills can really help make people more comfortable.


EDIT: Added Personal History:
I did my AOW "deep dive" in a quarry in Ohio. There was a platform at 20 feet, and they ran a line down to the bottom of the quarry at 75 feet or so. The instructor put 8 students on the platform and had a DM babysit them, while the instructor took two students at a time to 75 ffw, they turn around and came right back, and the instructor took the next two. This didn't teach me better buoyancy, it didn't teach me much at all,

I think it's interesting that we associate AOW with being certified to 100 fsw, and really the only difference between 30 fsw and 100 fsw is gas consumption and the accent, and most AOW classes lack adequate gas planning, and only dedicate one dive to the accent.

And for the record I have no idea what happened in C2, and am not commenting on recent events. I'm simply responding to Lynnes' comment.

Austin

[Grateful Diver]

Lynne,

Just out of curiosity, if it doesn't reveal proprietary information, how will you be modifying the procedures you use in your class?

When an AOW class only has 4 or 5 dives and 4 or 5 missions or goals to accomplish it doesn't leave a lot of time for actual training. It seems to me that if you only have one dive dedicated to being the deep dive that it doesn't do a lot in the way of instruction. I think we would be far better served to spend the lecture time talking about deep stops, and some basic principles, and then practice the in water skills necessary to execute the theory.

I think a class like that could be much better served by working on accents, buoyancy, addressing some of the skills from OW, but off the bottom while maintaining some kind of depth control, and then simulate accents from shallow depths. Make an ascent on a couple dives from 40 fsw with stops at 20, 15, and 10 feet for a minute each, and do it on a line, and in blue water.

Once those accent skills have been simulated and the instructor is confident in the divers ability to make a safe accent than you can do a 'checkout' dive to 80 or 100 fsw so that the instructor can evaluate the divers mindset.

I think in general blue water accents or accents up a line on a lift bag or smb aren't practiced enough. Those skills can really help make people more comfortable.

For my AOW class, the deep dive is dive #4 ... by which time I've been able to assess the student's ability and address any skills issues I feel need addressing prior to going deep. On more than one occasion I've had to suspend the deep dive until those issues got addressed ... sometimes for weeks while the student practices buoyancy control on shallower dives.

You just don't take someone deep if they appear to be having buoyancy control issues.

That said, the person in this latest accident had something like 50 dives under his belt ... so I tend to think that buoyancy control wasn't the problem.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[pensacoladiver]

I waited to see if anyone was going to post about an issue that a few folks commented on in the other thread... the free flowing reg while deep and how that is scary.

I'm probably going to take a few face shots on this, but I've took em before. Let me start by saying, I am not a Scuba Instructor, I don't play one on TV, nor am I a dive professional in any way.... so I am not trying to advocate any particular way to do things over another. Just posting what has happened to me in the past and what I did to fix the problem.

First thing and I'll get it out right now is myself and the folks I dive with here do not exactly subscribe to the "stick close to your buddy" mentality. I know, it goes against what I was trained to do, but hunting, being on a scooter, shooting video, insert whatever excuse you want, we get seperated and are all ok with that. It's a conscious decision we make.

IMO, the first part of dealing with a free flowing reg is KNOW YOUR GEAR. If you do not have the ability to close your eyes or be blindfolded and still be able to touch EVERY piece of your gear, why not??? In a stressful situation, you need to be able to react without having to see everything, especially considering with a freeflow reg there is a damn good chance your vision is going to be filled with bubbles.

Gonna sidetrack for a second, and again, this is a personal belief... the ONLY way I have found to wear your backup reg, in a manner that reduces stress during a gas emergency is bungeed around the neck. I have had 2 free flows of my gear at over 100 feet and 1 with my buddy. BY FAR the most stressful was with my buddy. He was fairly new to the deeper wrecks and came swimming over to me with bubbles everywhere at 125 feet. I had no idea where the hell they were coming from, because it was from his backup and he had it "tucked" into his right side cumberbund. Needless t say, after that we had a discussion about where we were going to wear our gear... he now has his backup reg around his neck. If it free flows, he will know it right away. Not trying to say you have to do it that way... but it works for me.

Both of my free flows were away from my buddy and both ended up being pressure/depth related. One was on my primary and the other with my back up. In both cases, the first thing I did was check to make sure they were detuned all the way, my back up stays that way so that is just a double check. In both cases, next step was to slap the reg mouthpiece down into the palm of my hand. I have seen that work ion the past at shallower depths. This did nothing.
Reg goes back in the mouth. I reach back with my right arm and start to close my first stage valve. When I get it almost closed but still have free flow, I ensure I get that good breath and go ahead and close the valve. The air will escape from the free flow reg and stop.

As I am exhaling, it is also time to swim up a bit. Just before its time to inhale, valve comes back on. Inhale, close valve, continue swimming up, exhale, open valve, repeat. In both my free flowing cases, the reg stopped after I ascended about 20-30 feet. If not, I would continue all the way to the surface. I have not had to do it yet, but I have no doubts about my ability to perform this during the 3 minute safety stop.

Again, I am not saying this is the right way on the "by the book" way to handle a free flow. It was Chads way of handling things when I had bubbles everywhere and said "aw shit"

[pensacoladiver]

That said, the person in this latest accident had something like 50 dives under his belt ... so I tend to think that buoyancy control wasn't the problem.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I doubt my comment has anything to do with anything and you are more than likely right. I will first proudly state that in my experience PNW divers are better trained than most I see here in Florida. That being said, last year, during my decompression class, I was with a student that was swimming their hands and could not maintain bouyancy within a 20-30 foot window. I won't even begin to talk about the circus that came to town when it was time to shoot the SMB.

I am not sure about the course prerequisites, but I thought it was a minimum of 100 dives to strat decompression procedures. Rant off.

[mz53480]

... especially considering with a freeflow reg there is a damn good chance your vision is going to be filled with bubbles...

+1zillion

[Nwbrewer]

I'll offer a contrast to Pensacola's story. I'm a team diver. My teammates typically stay close, so we're there to assist in case something goes wrong.

On a dive in Lake Washington my buddy's bungeed backup free-flowed on him. He was pretty much instantly blinded, as the bubbles knocked his mask around and flooded it. I was taking a picture, not looking at him when it happened, and for some reason instead of a nice orderly light signal I got a tactile signal of 3 punches to my left side right in a row. FYI this is a pretty effective way to get your buddies attention.

I turned and passed him my primary and pulled the free flowing backup to the side so he could fix his mask. I did the same thing as Pcola, and slapped it a few times, but got nothing. I signaled my buddy that I was going to shut down his gas and turned it off. At this point in all the screwing around we had stirred up the silt pretty bad and vis was about 6in, so we moved out of the cloud in touch contact to a place where we could see again and just calmed down a bit. I turned back on his gas, and he signaled an "up and out" so we made a shoulder to shoulder exit, just in case it started to free flow again.

All things considered it could have gone much worse. Although he was stressed, he didn't panic, we both knew I had plenty of gas to get us out of there if need be, and once he had my reg, there was no real urgency, we just dealt with the malfunction and exited.

While I can reach my valve on a single tank if I have to, I don't think I'd really want to try what pensacoladiver did. To me it just makes more sense to have a teammate right there who's willing and able to assist.

Jake

[LCF]

To answer the question about procedure change, we talked about the fact that all too often, the students want the instructor out in front of them, to "follow". If you're in front, you simply can't see the people you are leading on a moment-to-moment basis. And believe you me, it only takes 2 or 3 seconds for a student to lose buoyancy control or bolt, before they're simply too far up for you to catch. So when we do the deep dive, I'm going to dive behind and above the students (which I often do anyway) so if anyone begins to float or swim up, I can catch them. When Peter does it alone, he will make sure the students are on either side of him, where he can see them at all times. This shouldn't be necessary for certified divers, but it's clear that it is. Every year I read about scuba deaths, and they're depressingly frequently either during or immediately after the AOW deep dive.

I had a freeflow on about my 50th dive or so (it had to be about then, because I took Fundies at 40, and this was shortly thereafter). It was my bungied backup that freeflowed, and I still remember the incredible cloud of bubbles and the roaring SOUND -- I was not prepared for the noise, and it made it hard to think. But I had two buddies in front of me with their regs out to offer, and one of them was my Fundies instructor. We initiated an air-share and ascended; it wasn't a pretty ascent, but it wasn't ballistic. It was that experience that makes me believe that one should share gas and shut down the tank; once the bubbles and the noise are gone, it would be much easier to calm down and remain in good buoyancy control. But you do run the risk that, if for any reason the two divers can't stay together, you've got someone in the water with their air shut off. To me, that just means "don't get separated".

[kitsapdiver]

For my AOW class, the deep dive is dive #4 ... by which time I've been able to assess the student's ability and address any skills issues I feel need addressing prior to going deep. On more than one occasion I've had to suspend the deep dive until those issues got addressed ... sometimes for weeks while the student practices buoyancy control on shallower dives.

You just don't take someone deep if they appear to be having buoyancy control issues.

Bob,

From all I have ever read about your AOW class it's well worth the money, and I had no doubts that you (nor many other PNW instructors) would be the type of instructor to rush a student who was not ready to depth, but I don't think that's true everywhere, especially in vacation destinations. I know that you have a keen eye on a hundred other attributes of the diver's skill set, other than the one that is being taught on that particular dive, and you are assessing the bigger picture. I certainly did not mean my comment to sound like I was negative toward all AOW instructors.

That said, the person in this latest accident had something like 50 dives under his belt ... so I tend to think that buoyancy control wasn't the problem.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Once again I was not referring to recent events in any ways. Lynne opened the door to discuss the AOW curriculum in general by saying that she was considering procedual changes. I don't know what happened at Cove 2, and it has not baring on how I forumalated my comment.

The larger point that I wanted to make was that classes that change the depth to which you are certified to dive should be centered around buoyancy control, and the accent. AOW is bogged down in my mind with "night dive" and "nav dive", and "boat dive" or whatever specialities are required anymore. I think that it would be more productive to require nav, and night or low vis (at least in the PNW maybe not the tropics) as a pre req. I dont' think that it's unreasonable to spend 4 or 5 dives on accents and buoyancy in a class that will double the depth to which you are certified.

This would all be if I were some professional in the dive community and got to sit down and write the standards and procedures from scratch, but I'm not and I don't get to so it's kind of a mute point.

[Tom Nic]

I will say this in conclusion, I called a dive today as I was not fully compfortable with the conditions/circumstances I would of been diving within due to such things being on my mind whereas in the past I may of went ahead and did the dive anyhow and worked my way thru the slight uncompfortable feeling I had today.

I didn't want to let this comment slide by in the other great comments that have been made here without some huge affirmation. There is a certain amount of pressure (particularly among males, but not exclusively) to "man up" and power through any issue that you have, especially if it's a mental / emotional one and just DO the dive.

In most cases the pressure isn't intentional, but without continually affirming "anyone can call a dive at any time for any reason with no repercussions" it sometimes happens anyway.

We need to be aware of what's going on between our ears and in our heart as much or more than what is going on with our equipment. An emergency that might be handled relatively easily in a good frame of mind may turn into a deadly panic when our frame of mind is not so good.

I still "squirm" reading many of the books that have stories of diver accidents and deaths, particularly the ones written by very good writers that make you "feel" like you are there. Perhaps I have a good imagination, but they get my heart rate going, affect my breathing on the couch, and are not my idea of pleasant good night stories!



But I think they are necessary.

Understanding what happens and how you or a good friend can lose their lives doing this sport that we all love so passionately is hugely important to being a good diver, IMO. I was reading in their latest magazine the DAN statistics on diver fatalities and the reason for them - it's not rocket science.... the reasons for diver fatalities can be listed pretty much on one hand.

http://www.divermag.com/fatalities-inex ... ig-factor/

Educating ourselves on those reasons, then looking in the mirror (or better yet in the face of those who love us) and asking ourselves what we DO to not be one of those statistics is something each diver has a responsibility to do.

Know your stuff and dive safely everyone!

(PS - List of main reasons for fatalities from DAN:
"Divers Alert Network studied almost one thousand diving fatalities and they determined that the root cause of the triggering event was usually one of the following five factors:

Some sort of pre-existing disease pathology in the diver.
Poor buoyancy control.
Rapid ascent or violent water movement.
Gas-supply problems.
Equipment problems."

For some reason I can't find the article online that I read in this issue of Diver's Alert - it breaks it down by percentages. By far the largest percent is Gas Supply problems, and Equipment problems are at the bottom of the list.)

[eliseaboo]

I've tried hard to read these threads, absorb them, and stay out. There is great knowledge here and I don't want to muddle that. However, I have two points:

I dont' think that it's unreasonable to spend 4 or 5 dives on accents and buoyancy in a class that will double the depth to which you are certified.

Something that most people don't realize is that, at least for PADI, the AOW class does NOT certify you to 130. If you have an AOW rating, you are technically certified to 100 feet; in order to be officially certified to 130 (the recreational depth limit) you have to take the Deep specialty. It's a line that's grown increasingly muddy especially in the tropics, because if you hand over an AOW card then hey - you're good! But that class does not, in theory, double your depth limit.

Another thing I want to caution: I was in a situation a few years ago where a diver became so focused on "free flow..that's the problem that's going to come up, because the water is cold" that he was distracted from a real emergency. Be careful of tunnel vision. A diver who is breathing hard may appear, to someone who has never witnessed one, as though his regulator is free flowing. I think the most important thing is to not panic. Panic is ugly. It's ugly to experience, it's ugly to watch, it's ugly to deal with. As long as you have air you can deal with a problem. Know what to do, yes, and do know your triggers...but be careful that you don't develop a solution before you identify the problem.

[Grateful Diver]

Kitsap, I understand where you're coming from. There are lots of things about AOW I do differently than agency-standard because of where we dive.

First off, I won't take someone into AOW unless they have their basic skills dialed in at least to a moderate level. I'll offer to take them diving and work on those things ... or I might recommend them to another diver who is good at mentoring ... or I might simply recommend that they go put in a few more dives with buddies and concentrate on getting more comfortable with skills that they're obviously still working on.

The reason is because I want them to be able to manage the curriculum with a reasonable chance of success. I've never taken a diver fresh from OW for the AOW class, and the rare times I've taken them before I feel they have a solid foundation, we've spent a lot of time working on basic skills before we go do the dives outlined in the class curriculum. Some classes have lingered over a period of weeks or months (in one case, started in September and ended in January) ... with as many as 14 "class" dives, and several informal "practice" dives sprinkled in between.

I won't allow students to "pass" on a skill unless I think they're doing it comfortably. "One and done" doesn't teach them anything ... even if the instructor feels they've "mastered" the skill sufficiently to move on. I want to see repeated results.

I don't approach AOW from the perspective of "experience" dives ... experience is certainly valuable, but the student must have a fundamental skillset upon which to base the experience ... and they need a logical reasoning behind why we are doing what we're doing. I'll never ask a student to something without also explaining to them why it matters.

It's a matter of priorities ... mine is that I never want to find out someday that a student of mine was involved in an accident because of something they should not have done, or something that I failed to teach them properly. For any instructor, having a student or former student become a diving fatality is their worst nightmare.

Every diver's responsible for their own decisions and actions ... as an instructor, I'm responsible for giving them the tools to make good ones. What they do with it after class is up to them.

And as is the case with everything else in life ... sometimes, when Murphy comes a'calling even the best prepared diver can find themselves in a situation they couldn't possibly have anticipated. At that point, the more tools you have at your disposal, the better ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BDub]

The larger point that I wanted to make was that classes that change the depth to which you are certified to dive should be centered around buoyancy control, and the accent. AOW is bogged down in my mind with "night dive" and "nav dive", and "boat dive" or whatever specialities are required anymore. I think that it would be more productive to require nav, and night or low vis (at least in the PNW maybe not the tropics) as a pre req. I dont' think that it's unreasonable to spend 4 or 5 dives on accents and buoyancy in a class that will double the depth to which you are certified.

Similar to what Bob said, an AOW student should not be doing the deep dive until they have demonstrated proficiency with the basics (buoyancy control, trim, kicks, air share) as well as mid-water ascents. We work on these on the first 3 dives of AOW/Rec 2, then incorporate night/low viz. Their last 2 dives (dives 5 & 6) are deep dives (max depth 100fsw), after they've demonstrated their ability, and will include mid-water ascents (not from max-depth).

On those dives, the students plan and conduct the entire dive. I am merely a shadow there to jump in if needed for safety reasons. This allows them to not only plan and execute their dive on their own, it allows me to position myself wherever necessary. I don't lead dives.

[Norris]

OOps totally posted this statement in the wrong thread...LOL

Great discussion though and some really good reading, thanks for keeping it civil.

[kitsapdiver]

I've tried hard to read these threads, absorb them, and stay out. There is great knowledge here and I don't want to muddle that. However, I have two points:

I dont' think that it's unreasonable to spend 4 or 5 dives on accents and buoyancy in a class that will double the depth to which you are certified.

Something that most people don't realize is that, at least for PADI, the AOW class does NOT certify you to 130. If you have an AOW rating, you are technically certified to 100 feet; in order to be officially certified to 130 (the recreational depth limit) you have to take the Deep specialty. It's a line that's grown increasingly muddy especially in the tropics, because if you hand over an AOW card then hey - you're good! But that class does not, in theory, double your depth limit.

Another thing I want to caution: I was in a situation a few years ago where a diver became so focused on "free flow..that's the problem that's going to come up, because the water is cold" that he was distracted from a real emergency. Be careful of tunnel vision. A diver who is breathing hard may appear, to someone who has never witnessed one, as though his regulator is free flowing. I think the most important thing is to not panic. Panic is ugly. It's ugly to experience, it's ugly to watch, it's ugly to deal with. As long as you have air you can deal with a problem. Know what to do, yes, and do know your triggers...but be careful that you don't develop a solution before you identify the problem.

I agree with both points, I know at least YMCA ... is, or I mean WAS the same way. I was using SCUBA math, and am glad you pointed that out so that others don't violate their training.

Bob and Brian,

I think you both know that I hold you in high regards as instructors (and would recommend both of you in a heartbeat to family and loved ones, and that's the highest regard I think I can offer) and only wish I would have been on this coast when I took AOW. If all instructors had the same approach as you two I probably wouldn't sit around at night and think about how I would change the SCUBA curriculum if I were able.

In all honesty the AOW class I got in practice was much like what you describe, but only because the instructor was a good friend of mine and we spent weeks diving together outside the class setting. Had I been another student through the dive shop I'm not sure it would have been as worthwhile or as enjoyable.