Risky Behavior

[ArcticDiver]

Is scuba "risky behavior" for mature people? That is the question. Is it "risky behavior" for anyone, regardless of age? That is scuba as is commonly engaged in, not some thing like mapping underground labyrinths, or exploring the absolute limits of some piece of kit.

My two favorite civilized hobbies are riding bicycles and scuba diving. Both of which I've taken up as an elder and complimentary to a life where recognition and analysis of risk were key elements. Certainly both can be a bit risky if not approached intelligently. Even then, like driving a motor vehicle, the odds can catch a person. But, I've never considered either to be so hazardous as to deserve a "risky behavior" label.

Now I'm being conseled by medical people that these are risky behaviors that should be avoided by all reasonable people, especially elders. That chances of life changing or life ending accidents are so high one should do other things. For example, carrying dive gear or riding a bike could result in a fall. The fall could be a hip, or femur, or some other critical structure and be the beginning of the end. Instead ride an exercise bike, swim in a pool, walk, etc.

Even though these people are professional medical people my inclination is to dismiss their comments as flowing from ignorance and/or bias. But, I'm strong minded, not bull headed. So, I need to do some research first. Many of you are worth listening to. What say you?

[coulterboy]

Risky Behavior? Geez, how do I put my two cents on this question. Yes, it is a calculated risk. But an enjoyable one, if one stays within the boundaries of training, physical capacity, following protocol, tides,etc. To me, the only "little risk" involved is equipment failure. Let's accept it, "Sh...t" just happens, no matter what. But equipment failure can be lessened, or controlled in a way by "preventive maintenance". Other than that, it's just your time to "check out" of this world.

I'll say what I think is a major risk in diving. Have you noticed, that most of the deaths involved in diving are "health related"? That's a fact. People that know me well, know that I keep myself fit. Too many people don't keep themselves fit, and just think that diving is their way of exercise. My take on that is NO. Diving is not a substitute for exercise. True, you exert effort in the act of preparing to dive, during the dive, and after the dive. But, that's not enough. Too many peeps live a sedentary lifestyle, and just think that anytime they can just bust out their dive gear and go diving. That's when you have a heart attack. Especially, when you're over 40.

I'm not in no way attacking anybody by my response. The OP was a question, and you got my answer.

Just my opinion. Now, who wants to ride the STP with me next year?

[LCF]

It is true that falls are a high risk event for older people, and sometimes a life-ending event. But on the flip side, one of the reasons people fall is that they become inactive, and lose muscle strength and coordination. When you add that to stiff joints, you have a high fall risk.

I suspect that walking, carrying scuba gear, is actually good for maintaining core and leg strength and for practicing the coordination needed to avoid falling. I might (as I DO) avoid difficult entries where a fall is likely to cause injury. And it might also be prudent to do some land exercises to keep balance strong, like walking in place on a Bosu ball (which is what I do) and Pilates for core strength.

I think life in general gets riskier as we get older, and you have to decide how much you want to accept limits on yourself to minimize those risks. Some are pretty scary -- if you have a cardiac dysrhythmia, diving's going to be a really bad place to have an episode. Others are amenable to mitigation, like falling. I don't want to spend my later years in a Lazy Boy, watching television, and I suspect you don't, either. Many things I do probably aren't viewed as terribly wise for someone pushing 60 hard, but I'm going to keep doing them as long as I can do so with a manageable degree of discomfort

[Magoi]

Diving is risky, but so are a lot of other things that we do, such as driving a car or crossing a busy street. I started diving at 59, almost 4 years ago, and have accumulated about 370 dives. If you are in good physical condition, exercise (and stretch) regularly, and keep get regular checkups, I think your risks are substantially reduced.

I have seen statistics that equate the risk of one dive to riding a bicycle 30 mi. I have also seen statistics that say playing ping pong is riskier than rock climbing. I think if you know your limits and stay within them the risks are reasonably controlled. What are the risks of being bored stiff watching TV regularly?

Here is a link for equivalent risks causing a 1 in a million chance of dying: http://learndigital.net/wp-content/uplo ... pdated.pdf

Comparative risks for activities, including sports:http://www.afn.org/~savanna/risk.htm

One of the items in these list is that being a man aged 60 for 20 minutes or riding a bike 10 miles gives you a 1 in a million chance of dying. Based on these, 1 scuba dive is equivalent to being a 60 yr old man for 1 hour. Scuba diving is only slightly more risky than boating. Hunting is much more risky. Quality of life is worth some risks.

You do know, don't you, that answers from this forum will be in favor of diving?

[Dusty2]

First I realize that no mater what is said here you will do what you want. I can't talk you out of or into anything. If that were possible you would be in a wheelchair by now. Age is relative. Like all health related issues there are no cut and dried answers. I know that you are older than I am but not as old as dad who just finally gave up diving a couple of years ago.

Is it inherently risky for you? The easy answer is yes but only you can make that decision and make it stick. All of us will one day be faced with it but if someone else is making the call we will always wonder if it's right and always resist. For my 2 psi I think you might need to sit down and look within. You are very lucky to be where you are today. To be able to walk without pain is in it's self pretty amazing. You underwent a very serious and complex surgery and have made a pretty miraculous recovery. But I will tell a good piece of information a doctor once told me. Life is like a bank account, Each time you do something stupid you withdraw funds. These withdrawals each take away funds and sooner or later you will run out. Diving is very stressful on your skeletal system and only the muscles make it possible to support that weight. Like it or not you have less muscle now and less bone strength to. As you have learned we no longer bounce back like we used to. So is it risky? Your dam right it is! A minor stroke or heart problem at home may be just that minor but at 100fsw it is life threatening or maybe ending.

It's your call. Are you willing to take the risk and are the rewards worth it? Only you can say. But remember your decision will affect those you love as well so try to keep that in mind.

[Joshua Smith]

Do you want to stay alive for the greatest possible length of time, or do you want to live as fully as possible?

Or, look at it this way:

Would you rather have time in a bottle, or lightening in a bottle?

[spatman]

Would you rather have time in a bottle, or lightening in a bottle?

I'm usually just happy to have a bottle.

[Dusty2]

Would you rather have time in a bottle, or lightening in a bottle?

I'm usually just happy to have a bottle.

[PapaZ]

"Better to wear out than to rust out!"

[Joshua Smith]

Would you rather have time in a bottle, or lightening in a bottle?

I'm usually just happy to have a bottle.

Shut up or I'll take away that piece of string with a paper clip tied to it that I gave you to play with.

[Penopolypants]

Would you rather have time in a bottle, or lightening in a bottle?

Smite people now, or piss on their grave? Hm...I can be pretty smiteful....

Or perhaps Spatty should pass me that bottle before I decide.

[ArcticDiver]

I appreciate all the comments and look forward to more.

A couple things that bear on this situation:
-I have an old picture of a young Air Force fighter pilot enroute to his airplane. The caption on the picture says that a short bright life is better than a long dull one. True That.
-If the counseling that has been so strongly given was personal I would be more inclined to accept it face value. But, I got the impression that it was just part of the protocol. That people of certain ages, etc. should do certain things and if a person is not in that demographic they shouldn't.
-In the Christian Bible there is a book that goes to great lengths to point out there are seasons in life for nearly every activity.
-As Dusty pointed out I'm the beneficiary of some pretty good technology coupled with less than common skill. At the same time I was offered the technology because of my history. I've been given a new lease on life that I should not waste.

It is a measure of how I value your opinions that I've even broached the subject. Have to confess I don't understand the bottle thingy. Maybe it is best that way, eh?

[oldsalt]

To begin with, I am not in any way a medical professional nor am I a dive instructor, but those with the least knowledge have the strongest opinions. I am old and a diver. Entering on a seaweed covered rocky coast being pounded by waves offers a very good chance of a dangerous fall. I don't do those any more. It seems that rolling into the water off a charter boat or wading into calm waters on a sandy beach presents less of a risk of falling than walking to the bathroom. I also believe, as stated by Coulterboy, that fitness mitigates the risk. While I agree that diving by itself is insufficient exercise, after I gear up, walk down to the old fuel pier, swim out to the end of the pier, dive for my crab, and do the return swim and walk, I feel I have just completed the Ironman.

However, I have a conflict of interest. I want to dive with you in the future.
-Curt

[RoxnDox]

I appreciate all the comments and look forward to more.

A couple things that bear on this situation:
-I have an old picture of a young Air Force fighter pilot enroute to his airplane. The caption on the picture says that a short bright life is better than a long dull one. True That.
-If the counseling that has been so strongly given was personal I would be more inclined to accept it face value. But, I got the impression that it was just part of the protocol. That people of certain ages, etc. should do certain things and if a person is not in that demographic they shouldn't.
-In the Christian Bible there is a book that goes to great lengths to point out there are seasons in life for nearly every activity.
-As Dusty pointed out I'm the beneficiary of some pretty good technology coupled with less than common skill. At the same time I was offered the technology because of my history. I've been given a new lease on life that I should not waste.

It is a measure of how I value your opinions that I've even broached the subject. Have to confess I don't understand the bottle thingy. Maybe it is best that way, eh?

Well, Lynne gave a medical professional's thoughts. I'll add a second-hand professional's thoughts (my wife). Sue is not a diver, not even a swimmer, and she worries a lot about *me* going diving - but then she worries a lot about me in general... :-/ BUT, I have never heard of her or any of her colleagues in a primary-care setting *ever* telling patients they should avoid diving just because it's "risky behaviour'... Assess whether they're in good enough health for it, yes. Avoiding it just because of the risk level - never. And while they won't talk about individuals, that sort of thing would be discussed between them at a general level, especially given the number of aquatic people around here.

So, I think it's safe to say that your "counseling" was *NOT* general medical protocol, but something local to those individuals. Or, to steal a Dogbert term, in-duh-viduals...

Jim (who started diving at 51, has bad knees, shoulder, neck, wrist - and still dives when I can...)

[Jaksonbrown]

Try applying for a life insurance policy and telling them your a diver. I had to go through three telephone interviews that lasted well over 15 minutes each, prior to them approving the policy. And they were much happier to believe that I only dive a few times a year rather than be a weekly active skilled diver.

Go figure?

[Dusty2]

Warning Fire storm emanate!!!!!!
I personally think that those people under 55 answering this question have little concept of what they are saying. It is easy to make comments like I'd rather wear out than rust out for a young to middle aged person because they really have no idea of the physical changes that they are going to experience as they reach retirement age. I'm not putting anyone down it's just simple fact. Ten to fifteen years ago I would have done the same but I am beginning to realize that there are limits and you need to consider them carefully and adapt your activities accordingly. My dad didn't stop diving until he was 83 and I am nearing 70 so I have a very firm knowledge base to work from. Falls are a very serious concern for us older folk. Allot can be done to mitigate the risks but you never know when something is going to give out. My knee gave out simply walking across the street. I knew I had problems but I had no idea that it was that serious. This was before I took up diving. Had I been carrying all that gear I would have been in serious trouble especially if I was entering the water.

The OP here is in his 70's but has led a very active lifestyle so is in much better condition than most his age. I am very certain he is in way better shape than I am but he has also just spent a couple years recovering from a very serious accident. I hear what he is saying and totally agree that the medical people are going to er to the conservative side and tend to stereotype people and try to fit them into neat little boxes that are easy to manage. This is why I say only he can make that decision.

To Arctic diver, I would suggest you seriously consider the side mount option. This really allows you a much safer entry and recovery. Boat diving should be no problem. I don't think you should give up diving but you just need to be smarter about it and listen to those inner voices. Don't take chances and do everything with careful consideration.

Something will eventually kill us all and I personally am going to keep diving as long as I can figure out a way to do it safely. Diving is risky for everyone. This is a simple fact. Why else would you be required to pass a certification to do it? Just dive safe and within your limits and do everything in your power to mitigate the risks.

[CaptnJack]

I have not found sidemount to be any easier than backmount. If anything its 1/3rd more work in an otherwise single tank setting.

You might consider picking easier entry shore sites, low current/surge days only, boat diving (depending on the boat/ladder), getting helpers (kids? grandkids?), and using a hand cart on those easy gradient shore dives you've picked to mitigate carrying weight. A goodly amount of the right kinds of non-scuba exercise like pilates can help with balance and more basic fall prevention. A stress test to detect cardiac anomalies is not a bad idea. Regular cardio and not smoking to avoid UW cardiac issues is wise as well.

I don't consider open water scuba at modest depths (<70ft) and with minimal currents, surge, and non-overhead to be high risk.

[Grateful Diver]

I'd say diving is less risky behavior than a lot of things I see old people doing ... like driving a giant RV on a winding mountain road, or sitting around watching TV while "enjoying" retirement. Seems to me that people who remain active in their elder years tend to live longer than those who don't.

Sure, it's needful to make a realistic assessment of your physical capabilities, and plan your dives accordingly ... but that's true for divers of all ages.

That said, I think the best way to live to a ripe old age, and to live life to its fullest, is to keep doing the things you love to do ... it helps keep your brain and body engaged in living. And makes it harder for Father Time to catch up to ya ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[spatman]

I have not found sidemount to be any easier than backmount. If anything its 1/3rd more work in an otherwise single tank setting.

More time to set up, but a lot less strain on my back overall.

[CaptnJack]

I have not found sidemount to be any easier than backmount. If anything its 1/3rd more work in an otherwise single tank setting.

More time to set up, but a lot less strain on my back overall.

I don't see any reason for the OP to carry/haul 2 tanks to the water when 1 will do. Although 2 sidemount lp45s are like wearing nothing. I just wouldn't buy 2 in an attempt to make diving less risky.

[airsix]

Quality of life is worth some risks.

So true. I'd say there is no value in anything without some measure of risk. In fact, it's quite proportional. Risk nothing, get nothing. Applies to everything from hobbies to love.

[spatman]

"If you risk nothing, then you risk everything."

[selkie]

People need to keep in perspective this is life and NO ONE gets out alive. So what you are talking about is prolonging living and each individual needs to balance for themselves what compromises they are willing to make to prolong their lives. For example many of us would probably live longer if we gave up motorized transportation and avoided motorized transportation networks. It is a risk benefit trade off and there are no guarantees.

[CaptnJack]

If not diving then what? More hours of TV per week? Other strength or cadio fitness activities? Sky diving?

[ArcticDiver]

Very interesting responses. I especially liked the one about sky diving. Of all the things I have done over the years the only one my wife has adamantly, divorce you if you do, refused to allow is skydiving. Anyway, most of the philosophical comments are right on track with mine. Live while you can because time is short. Very early in my adult life I was forcibly taught that there are worse things than death. Besides, experience says that it drives other people nuts when you can talk about a varied, almost Renaissance Man, life.

I've done some more research and this Risky Behavior thing apparently has its' roots in an effort by Medicare to reduce costs incurred by elders falling. Apparently this fits in the same category as taking history about tobaccco and alcohol use, safety from others living in the home, etc.

I think the medical caution also has to do with an effort by the medical community to have a political effect on general behaviour. That is coupled with a society that has become very risk averse. Maybe it is not general knowledge that life is a terminal condition? Sounds dumb to say that. But, how many of the people on this web site have ever been to a funeral? How many have seen death? If the people here are like most I know there will be a few who have seen a lot. The rest have very little acquaintance. That is not a personal slam on anyone. It is just the nature of our society.

After certification other than local ponds and rivers it was, and is, easier and cheaper to go to somewhere else to dive than in mainland Alaska. That generally ends up being boat diving in one form or another. It seems that I blundered into a safer method of scuba that I should continue.

At this point I am not physically capable of diving. There is no guarantee I will ever progress far enough to do what I used to. But, thanks to y'all and the associated research I am going to continue pushing to get there. As soon as I am physically and mentally capable I am going to continue scuba and riding my bicycles.