AL 80 Hydro

[Nwcid]

A guy bough a closed building that use to have an "outdoor" store in it. He has some odds and ends laying around there including some scuba stuff most of which was junk.

One thing he did have for sale is 8 AL 80 tanks. About half had the valves out but were there. I looked inside 2 of the tanks and they were still shiny (not rusted?). All were from mid 80's to early 90's and all had the last hydro in the mid '90's, I think '96 was the newest.

So lots of questions. How much does it cost to hydro/service each tank? I read lots of stuff about pre '89 AL tanks having "issues", how much of that is true. I think I can get all 8 tanks with whatever parts are also there for $100. Is it worth the risk for that?

[straitscuba]

Generally through a dive shop you would be looking at around $45 dollars or less for hydro, vis, and fill. There was a bad alloy used pre 89 in the AL80 tanks which have caused a small number of them to fracture at or near the base of the threads. Not all tanks have the bad alloy but MOST dive shops don't wanna fill if they are pre 89. There was a recall on them in the early 2000's, technically a buy back not a recall but there is nothing that says they can't be used/filled if you can find a shop willing to do the visual and fill them. I usually buy AL80's for around $20-$40 each if they are out of hydro and they check out visually so $100 for all 8 may not be a bad deal. They won't be rusty inside because they are AL and AL doesn't rust. I would put a paper towel down or put a ziplock bag over the opening and turn them upside down to see what comes out.

[CaptnJack]

Forget the 6351 aluminum tanks. No dive shop will fill them and honestly there's a good reason. They have killed people and they are ancient, nothing lasts forever. They also cost more to hydro since they require a visual eddy from the hydro place. Scrap them for about $15.

[Nwcid]

How to I tell what tank is what?

I know AL does not "rust" but dont they have a condition that is similar and just as bad if not worse?

As long as I can get Hydro and VIS we fill our own tanks so should not be an issue. Our club rules just say "in VIS and Hydro". Obviously I do want safe tanks though.

I guess I did not think of the scrap value. If I can get all for $100 that is under scrap price right?

[Desert Diver]

Pretty much all AL80's after 1988 in the USA are the newer alloy. The break point on Luxfers was June of 1987 or 1988. I can't remember which. If they are Catalina's they are the "good" alloy. Buy the tanks fast and then decide what to do with them. When I researched this I found about 20 of the "bad" alloy had exploded. In 40 years and 30 million or so cylinders.

[loanwolf]

A guy bough a closed building that use to have an "outdoor" store in it. He has some odds and ends laying around there including some scuba stuff most of which was junk.

One thing he did have for sale is 8 AL 80 tanks. About half had the valves out but were there. I looked inside 2 of the tanks and they were still shiny (not rusted?). All were from mid 80's to early 90's and all had the last hydro in the mid '90's, I think '96 was the newest.

So lots of questions. How much does it cost to hydro/service each tank? I read lots of stuff about pre '89 AL tanks having "issues", how much of that is true. I think I can get all 8 tanks with whatever parts are also there for $100. Is it worth the risk for that?

You say you are north of Spokane and Yakima that is a very big area. Try Inland Fire Extinguisher Service they have several office over their. Or the nearest Extinguisher Service shop to you. I believe Airgas will hydro for you as well over their. But you are better off with a Extinguisher Service outfit. Should be around $25 for hydro and VIP. It does not matter the age of the bottle, type of metal or any of that crap, it is a pass fail, DOT regulations. The only shop I know that will not fill older tanks is Under Water sports. And that is their personal choice to not. They have gotten in a little trouble in the past for condemning tanks and selling people new ones when the old ones still tested fine.

If you have any questions contact Mark at PSI-PCI they wright the regulations for DOT, do the DOT certification for the tank manufactures, and do the training for VIP's and Hydro. Mark is extremely helpful, a little busy at times but extremely helpful.

http://www.psicylinders.com/

Greg
http://www.psicylinders.com/

[Nwcid]

I know it is a big area. I work in Yakima, and live N of Spokane, so I cover a lot of the state.

I will look into those two places.

I offered the guy $100 for all 8 tanks and associated pieces and I will be picking them up in the morning.

[loanwolf]

I know it is a big area. I work in Yakima, and live N of Spokane, so I cover a lot of the state.

I will look into those two places.

I offered the guy $100 for all 8 tanks and associated pieces and I will be picking them up in the morning.

I hope you drive something that really gets good mileage

[Nwcid]

I know it is a big area. I work in Yakima, and live N of Spokane, so I cover a lot of the state.

I will look into those two places.

I offered the guy $100 for all 8 tanks and associated pieces and I will be picking them up in the morning.

I hope you drive something that really gets good mileage

Well in the warm months my Kawi Concours gets 42.5 mpg and is a very...., quick trip.

In the wet/colder months my Crew Cab Chevy 3500 dually Duramax gets 19-20 mpg which is the biggest "truck" I have owned and by far gets the best mpg too.

[loanwolf]

I know it is a big area. I work in Yakima, and live N of Spokane, so I cover a lot of the state.

I will look into those two places.

I offered the guy $100 for all 8 tanks and associated pieces and I will be picking them up in the morning.

I hope you drive something that really gets good mileage

Well in the warm months my Kawi Concours gets 42.5 mpg and is a very...., quick trip.

In the wet/colder months my Crew Cab Chevy 3500 dually Duramax gets 19-20 mpg which is the biggest "truck" I have owned and by far gets the best mpg too.

Hate to pay your winter fuel bill, spent a lot of time driving hells half acre over their for business. Sucks today.

[loanwolf]

Check and see who is doing the Fire Extinguisher Service for the company you work at. With most of them they will pick the tanks up at your work and take them for hydro and VIP if it fits their service techs schedule.

[LCF]

They should be stamped with the alloy. If any of the numbers you see on the shoulder of the tank are 6351, don't bother with them.

[CaptnJack]

They should be stamped with the alloy. If any of the numbers you see on the shoulder of the tank are 6351, don't bother with them.

They are rarely stamped with these actual numbers.
For all practical purposes, the ones to recycle are:
Pre-1989 Luxfers
Any tank from Walter Kidde
Any tank your shop won't fill

You'll have to ask about this last one. Various shops can have their own 'rules' regarding filling tanks, like not be >20 yrs old etc. Its their compressor and they have to stand nearby while filling. So just ask them before investing alot of money in hydros, VIPs, and possibly visual eddy tests.

[Nwcid]

I know it seems silly but I have not had a chance to look at these tanks yet to see exactly what they are.

All the valves are pretty sad but I am guessing they can be rebuilt. Even if not I just bought a new 300 bar manifold for $100 for tanks that both have pro valves in them now. Then I just picked up 2 more used pro valves for $60 shipped.

Local places does hydro, vis, fill for $20.

So for my first 4 tanks I will be into them for under $50 each.

As for shop fills that is something we only do traveling. Usually we fill off the Team compressor.

[CaptnJack]

Do you have a pic?

[Nwcid]

Do you have a pic?

No pics. They are all piled in my shed at home. Hopefully when I get home this week I will have time to go though and deal with them all and see exactly what is there.

[Nwcid]

Ok so here is an update of what I ended up with. Any comments would be great.

Out of the 8 tanks, 6 are marked Luxfer and the other 2 have no names on them.

I see 3 different markings on what do they mean? Some are just marked 3000, one is 3000-J, most are marked 3000-S80. I know 3000 is the psi.

Tanks basically left to right are marked.

New 4-85, last hydro 6-05
New 1-80, last hydro 8-04
New 5-87, last hydro 9-07
New 10-86, last hydro 6-05
New 10-80, last hydro 5-04
New 2-85, lasy hydro 6-07
New 3-87, last hydro 3-05
New 10-79, last hydro 3-07



One thing I would like to do is "clean" these tanks up. I know they make stuff for stripping the paint off without hurting them. Is there any problems doing this? Sine the tank is AL I assume you don't need to cover them with anything since they don't rust.


Also a give away. When I got these tanks I also picked up several odds and ends. In the pile was 2 different fins. I figure enough people seem to lose one fin these might find a home. The split fin is marked as "Regular" and the is marked Large. The "regular" might fit up to a size 12 in a wetsuit boot. The other maybe up to a size 10 in wetsuit boot. Again totally free to good home.

[CaptnJack]

I would pull off all the valves which are not J valves (the double knobbed one if a J valve). Keep the K valves.

Take the tanks to a recycle facility and get $16 for each of them. They are all 6351 aluminum and to me they are not worth the cost to properly hydro, eddy current test and visual. Nevermind the risks of them killing someone at the fill station.

The 2 with no names can be traced to a manufacturer, but I'd need clear pictures of all the numbers and symbols on the crown to do so. Catalina's have always been marked "Catalina" so I suspect they are another lesser brand. If that's the case then they are either no longer capable of being hydroed at all at worst or 6351 aluminum at 'best'.

[Nwcid]

I guess I dont understand the hydro issue. All of these tanks have been hydroed 4 times already. Plus 2 of the tanks are less then 1 year out of hydro.

Half are stamped DOT/6498-3000 The rest are just DOT-3000. What is the 6498?

Heading to do more reading on 6351 tanks.

So from what I have read it appears that less then 20 of the 25 million of these tanks have exploded. I do understand how these tanks have a higher or know cracking issue that should be caught on inspection. It sounds like there is a lot of over reaction to this.

I read one case where a fire department had 10 of its tanks fail and 2 were the newer style. After taking it to another tester they said the first tested could not have even tested it because of how "dirty" the tank was (guessing dirty threads from firefighting) and all passed. Then a 3rd company tested them and all 8 passed again. This leads me to believe that there are a lot of "non-passing" tanks from errors either in test or willful failing.

So I guess I am missing something here.

[Desert Diver]

You are not missing anything. The risk is tiny, and even tinier if the tanks are hydroed and visualed. Most recent failures almost certainly had high concentrations of oxygen in them. All bets are off with high PO2's.

Brian

[CaptnJack]

The 6498 is a DOT special permit number issued to Luxfer about 35 years ago.
"Only" about 20 have failed and killed or maimed people yes.

The number that have been pulled from service is VASTLY higher. In fact there's a damn good chance one or two of those already have cracks and won't pass a hydro, eddy current or visual. If they've been stored full for the past decade they are probably toast. They can pass the hydro itself while it exacerbates a crack and render them scrap for the visual.

In any case, those 3 things will cost you about $35-40 per tank around here. Possibly cheaper in Yakima - if they even have an eddy current machine at all. Assuming about 2 of those tanks fail immediately, then net your costs will be about $50 each to return the other 8 to service this year. Next year they will have to at a minimum pass a visual again, an annual eddy current test is not overkill but no guarantee either.

Given the costs associated with getting these back in service, the ongoing cost and anxiety over ensuring they aren't cracking, and pulling them from service when they do crack (which they will eventually), and the fact that no dive shops will touch them - they just aren't worth anything.

Most fire departments have long since retired all their 6351 tanks in favor of higher pressure wrapped tanks. You might want to discuss them with your fill station, since no dive shops in the Puget Sound region will fill them. They are 25+ years old afterall and nothing lasts forever.

[CaptnJack]

You are not missing anything. The risk is tiny, and even tinier if the tanks are hydroed and visualed. Most recent failures almost certainly had high concentrations of oxygen in them. All bets are off with high PO2's.

Brian

There aren't many issues anymore since the number in service has shrunk dramatically, the revised DOT rules actually planned their obsolescence. The issue today is not as much about the risk, its whether its worth putting $40 into a 30+ year old cylinder that has a good chance of failing. And that dive shops refuse to fill them, I won't fill them either off my compressor either.
Parts to service most of those valves are available, cost about $12 most of that is the HP seat. So $50-55 to return a 30+ yo tank to service (if you're lucky) looks pretty silly when brand new Al80s are only about $180 afterall.

[Nwcid]

I will see if the shop here does eddy current and what that costs.

If not I will call a couple of the scrap yards and see what they get for them. Since I paid about $10 each for them if they are worth $16 each I can still make a few $$ on them. Either sale or if no one wants them donate the valves to the local dive club.

Come to think of it though it might be more fun to put a couple hundred psi in them and use as targets then take the pieces in for scrap

[Jeff Pack]

Come to think of it though it might be more fun to put a couple hundred psi in them and use as targets then take the pieces in for scrap

I need to run a few rounds through my rebarreled .50

[Nwcid]

Come to think of it though it might be more fun to put a couple hundred psi in them and use as targets then take the pieces in for scrap

I need to run a few rounds through my rebarreled .50

Well I have a 300 yard range in my back yard. I have some .50 API laying around here that could help that have a real good bang. Bought a bunch of it several years ago but never did end up with the rifle so sold most of it.