Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

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mtrautman
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Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by mtrautman »

I have a question regarding techniques used while rescuing an unconscious diver who is found on the bottom at a reasonable depth (lets say 60' for this scenario).

I was doing some pool training with an AAUS instructor today (part of my training as a scientific diver for my college) and he said that in a scenario such as the one above you should release the weight belt from the unconscious diver as a way to get them up to the surface easier(while keeping your own). We practiced the drill this way.

However, as someone who has had some training with these scenarios(PADI rescue diver class), I hesitated. It seems like it could lead to an uncontrolled ascent... I mentioned this to the instructor. He responded by asking me if I would prefer to get bent and save another's life... or not be able to get the patient to the surface quick enough. This seemed absurd.

Now, of course I just followed the drill. But to me this was really not cool. So here is my reasoning why:

1. The first rule of rescue in any class I have ever taken (including several EMS courses) is rescuer safety comes first. So unless I want to risk being dragged to the surface (now two people need to be rescued instead of one), or just letting the unconscious diver shoot up and get bent and have potential air expansion injuries I really see no reason to do this. In a situation like this, it would make more sense to control both diver's buoyancy, even if it requires oral inflation. I have been trained that once you are ON the surface, then you start ditching gear. But not before.

2. Now if this was in SUPER shallow water (15') or even in warm water I might consider ditching the weight at the bottom... but in cold waters people wear drysuits or 7mm wetsuits. That is a ton of lift that will start to get more prevalent as the pressure decreases. Meaning that the issue of weight is even more of a concern.

Perhaps I am missing something. I know that there are some very experienced divers here. SO what say you?
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Jeff Pack
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by Jeff Pack »

If I need to get my buddy to the surface, I'm gonna get him/her to the surface asap. If I get bent, but it saves my buddy's life, so be it.

Getting bent is the last thing in my mind. Getting them to the surface to perform emergency treatment is.
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Alaska-Herb
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by Alaska-Herb »

Jeff Pack wrote:If I need to get my buddy to the surface, I'm gonna get him/her to the surface asap. If I get bent, but it saves my buddy's life, so be it.

Getting bent is the last thing in my mind. Getting them to the surface to perform emergency treatment is.
Sorry But I disagree the first rule of being a rescuer is not to create two victims. If you get bent you are not gong to be able to support and provide the care that diver needs. Also If you bend the distressed injured diver you have just added another medical issue to what could already be a long list of issues needing addressed.

Never create a uncontrolled assent. Make sure that you control not only your assent rate but the assent of the diver being rescued.

If you create an embolism for the victim through an uncontrolled assent then you may create a situation that they may not be able to be brought back from .

So I respectfully disagree with the Original instructor and Jeff. But hey that is just my opinion and it carries zero weight
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by Linedog »

:popcorn:
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by Nwcid »

I have not done any Dive Rescue courses but I do all the other kind of rescue (Fire, EMS, Ski, ect) and as stated the rescuer should do whatever it takes not to injure themselves in a rescue. If you are injured (bent) not only will you not be able to help the person you are trying to rescue but you also take away from their care because you will also need help.

This is not to say there are not acceptable risks to take. But dong something that has high odds you will end up needing "rescued" also does not make sense.
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spatman
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by spatman »

I would attempt the most controlled ascent possible and try to ditch the victim's weight at the surface. I would try to get to the surface as quickly and efficiently as possible WITHOUT jeopardizing myself or the victim. Like Herb said, if I'm impaired I'm no use to anyone and could become a victim myself.
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BDub
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by BDub »

spatman wrote:I would attempt the most controlled ascent possible and try to ditch the victim's weight at the surface. I would try to get to the surface as quickly and efficiently as possible WITHOUT jeopardizing myself or the victim. Like Herb said, if I'm impaired I'm no use to anyone and could become a victim myself.
+1.

Ditching the belt on the bottom will likely create a dangerous situation where you've lost control, unnecessarily. If properly weighted, there's no need whatsoever to drop weights on teh bottom.

You've got 2 wings/BCDs (rescuer's + victim's) which will accomplish the same thing as ditching the belt in terms of initiating an ascent. However, once the ascent begins, you're now able to dump gas as needed to control the ascent, and make any required stops so you don't injure yourself.

It would be extremely difficult to accomplish the same if the victim has no weight belt and is very positively buoyant.

Weights really should only be dropped at the surface (when properly weighted).
Last edited by BDub on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by Desert Diver »

BDub wrote:
spatman wrote:I would attempt the most controlled ascent possible and try to ditch the victim's weight at the surface. I would try to get to the surface as quickly and efficiently as possible WITHOUT jeopardizing myself or the victim. Like Herb said, if I'm impaired I'm no use to anyone and could become a victim myself.
+1.

Ditching the belt on the bottom will likely create a dangerous situation where you've lost control, unnecessarily.

You've got 2 wings/BCDs (rescuer's + victim's) which will accomplish the same thing as ditching the belt in terms of initiating an ascent. However, once the ascent begins, you're now able to dump gas as needed to control the ascent, and make any required stops so you don't injure yourself.

It would be extremely difficult to accomplish the same if the victim has no weight belt and is very positively buoyant.
I agree (for what its worth) with inflating rather than ditching, but if you do the stops with a non-breathing victim you might just as well send them up alone. Somebody may find them on the surface but below the surface without breathing they are not getting rid of nitrogen and they are unlikely to survive.
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by BDub »

Desert Diver wrote:I agree (for what its worth) with inflating rather than ditching, but if you do the stops with a non-breathing victim you might just as well send them up alone...
Unless they have a blocked airway, then you're definitely sending them to their death.
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Jeff Pack
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by Jeff Pack »

spatman wrote:I would attempt the most controlled ascent possible and try to ditch the victim's weight at the surface. I would try to get to the surface as quickly and efficiently as possible WITHOUT jeopardizing myself or the victim. Like Herb said, if I'm impaired I'm no use to anyone and could become a victim myself.
thats more what I meant, but in the chance I do get bent, again, so be it. I just figure in such an emergency case, its probable it'll happen. Now I'm figuring this in an area with other divers and people around, so I'd be willing to push it.

If not, then I'll probably be abit slower/careful, if I'm likely to be the only emergency assistance.

A dive buddy is different from an EMS first responder. Thats EMS person has no obligation to you, nor to put their life on the line for you, nor would I expect them to. A dive buddy is different. You each put your life in the others hand, the moment you go underwater. I think of it like a contract, I watch out for you and do what it takes to save your life, and expect the same in return.

flame away.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by Alaska-Herb »

Jeff Pack wrote:
spatman wrote:I

A dive buddy is different from an EMS first responder. Thats EMS person has no obligation to you, nor to put their life on the line for you, nor would I expect them to. A dive buddy is different. You each put your life in the others hand, the moment you go underwater. I think of it like a contract, I watch out for you and do what it takes to save your life, and expect the same in return.

flame away.
I am not trying to Flame anyone but I can tell you a first responder will do anything that they can to provide for a successful outcome to anyone that they come into contact with and that includes place their life in peril, however you must weigh the odds of success with the risk involved as well as making sure that you maximize the use of your resources and that includes you. If I am bent I am no further use to that victim. If you are my dive buddy please understand that I will do everything that I can to help you however there will come a time when I have to say Sorry I can't help you. I would never want my dive buddy to kill themselves trying to save me. Every rescue should be a controlled assent blowing off any optional stop to arrive at the surface as quickly as possible.

This of course is different if I dive with one of my daughters or my son in law. I get in the water knowing that I will not be getting out of the water unless they are also. It is just the way that I look at every dive.
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spatman
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by spatman »

Jeff Pack wrote:A dive buddy is different. You each put your life in the others hand, the moment you go underwater. I think of it like a contract, I watch out for you and do what it takes to save your life, and expect the same in return.
I guess this is something to talk about pre-dive with new buddies. Like Herb, I will do what I can in an emergency, up to the point where I feel I can't do anything else without putting myself at risk. I love a lot, if not most, of my dive buddies, but I love my wife and my life more.
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by LCF »

Honestly, if you find someone on the bottom who is unresponsive and breathing, you have plenty of time to get them to the surface. If you find someone who is unresponsive and NOT breathing, the likelihood of a good outcome is going to be very poor, no matter what you do. I do not think it is reasonable to break land speed records getting that patient to the surface, especially if it puts the rescuer at risk. A properly weighted diver should not be that difficult to bring up.
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WylerBear
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by WylerBear »

I find it hard to believe any agency is advocating ditching weights on the bottom to surface an unresponsive diver. It seems a bit irresponsible.
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eliseaboo
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by eliseaboo »

I gotta (gasp!)...agree with Jeff here...to a point.

My regular dive buddies...you better bet that either both or neither of us are getting to the surface. You can train me all you want on emergency procedures and the like, but I know that faced in a situation with someone I care about, all the "rules" go out the window if I think there's a chance to save them. New buddies I'd be less willing to risk life or injury, but you can bet I'd still do everything I could.

Lynn - the exception to that is fresh, cold water. Every second counts, for sure, but there is a much greater possibility to revive a drowning victim around here than there would be in a lot of other places.

Back to the original question: a diver found (I am going to give the benefit of the doubt here and say "found" has the meaning of you either got separated momentarily from your buddy or found another member of your dive group who you know couldn't have been unconscious for very long) at 60 feet or less, do you create a buoyant ascent? Some training agencies train individuals to do a buoyant ascent (ditch weights, inflate BCD) from depths of greater than ~30ft if you are out of air and the surface is closer than your buddy. I think the reasoning there is you have a better chance of survival at the surface, while buoyant, than you do underwater without air. There's certainly a lot of considerations to take into effect (are you at a remote dive site or a popular one? Are you close to shore/a boat or does it require a substantial surface swim? Are conditions calm or very rough?) but the buoyant ascent scenario might not be so unreasonable in the right situation. Go ahead and discuss it with your instructor some more when you aren't in front of the rest of the class and putting him on the spot, and see where things lie after that.
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Re: Weight Belts and Rescue Diving

Post by WylerBear »

The Emergency Buoyant Ascent is also the LAST choice when faced with an OOG because it puts you at risk. When OOG and conscious if it's your ONLY choice, you do it, flaring all the way to try to slow down the uncontrolled ascent-something you couldn't do if you were trying to get someone else to the surface with you.
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