Just want some opinions

[Norris]

So there is a shop that is close to me that I have been more and more, not liking...it just seems their tactics on newer divers are shady and their methods of trying to get more money is nothing short of desperation.
Mind you I already have my reasons for avoiding this place but here is my scenario.

These people know me and obviously I am not a mark. I needed a close fill so I decided to head up.
I have a set of double 100s that are less than half spent (just topping off). And I brought in a 120.

While carting them back I asked..."so considering the doubles are over half full and I am filling another tank too, will you be treating my doubles as a single (I even carried them to the fill station.l)?

Without even a thought the answer spilled out as though read from a book..."If I am filling doubles, I am charging for doubles"

I know the SCUBA shop business needs all the help they can get but this seems counter productive to word of mouth advertising.
Because of the snotty response I will not refer people there and cannot say these are good people that will work with you.

Moving forward I will continue to use lighthouse and don't mind driving from Lake Stevens to do so.

If you were a shop owner, would you have answered the same?

[CaptnJack]

This is why every FL shop I know (and many others) have gone to a $/cf pricing model. The days of charging for a "fill" are antiquated and really only applied to one (usually small) sized cylinder than was nearly completely drained before refilling. e.g. al80s or lp72s etc. With people returning tanks with substantial gas left in them its just bogus to be charging a flat rate.

A shop wanting to get out on the forefront of this shift would charge a small "whip" fee. Say $2 per tank, then ~$0.12 per cf of nitrox. $0.05 cf for air. Similar fee structure with slightly different amounts for other gases (helium, O2 fills etc)

[Desert Diver]

I know little about doubles, but in my business we get paid more for what we know than for what we supply. I kind of think that any fill monkey, myself??? could fill a single but the doubles have to have the valves in the right positions??? And if it is as simple as hooking up 2 whips, then that is 2 fills. I can't see myself complaining for what we are charged for fills over on the coast. I don't care if the tanks are empty or just need topped off, somebody has to handle them and take the liability. I would guess the liability insurance costs as much as the pumping costs on the air. My air costs are small compared to the other costs of diving. I fill my own when I am at home and after paying to set up to do that I don't begrudge the air fill costs when I am at a dive shop. If they want to get picky with nitrox fills and stickers then I am out of there, but not over the $$$.

I'm always amazed that shops will replace a computer battery for the price of the battery. If the computer floods you know who will be paying!

[kdupreez]

This is a tough one to answer. Some shops ask a flat fee, others a per cuft fee..

Some dive shops around here will drain your tanks and fill the entire set from their own setup.. For liability they have NO idea whats in your tanks and if some other place accidentally had CO contamination, once the top-up, nobody knows who is to blame.. Some places dont have Helium analyzers so they simply wont top-up existing tanks.. they always drain them. thus they charge full price no matter whats in there.. I get that, I dont like it, but I get it..

Others have a flat fee per tank no matter how full they are.. on the whole, they are usally cheaper per tank than the people who charge per cuft for all the gasses.

The more sensible and usually more technically inclined shops will analyze your tanks and depending on what Helium / Oxygen you currently have in there and what target mix you want, they will charge you per cu/ft for Oxygen, Helium and Air.. Those kinds of shops also understand the "less than 40% treat as Air" policy and will give you pre-mixed < 40% Nitrox in any tank.. they tend to be more practical and are usually avid divers themselves and understand the business.

You can always just talk to the shop and ask them why they do what they do.. and ultimately, you can take your business wherever you get best service for your buck..

[LCF]

I miss Scott Christopher . . .

I'm with you. It's annoying as all get-out to be charged for two fills when it's one hookup of a fill whip and sometimes LESS gas than a full fill on a single tank. I also get irritated at bringing in a single tank that's less than 1/3 used and getting charged full freight to fill it.

I understand that gas fills are not a profit center for dive shops, and that the labor to hook up a tank and put gas in it is pretty much the same, no matter how much gas that is. I also understand that, for most of us, the dive shop is what we have to get fills. Unless you are willing to invest in a compressor and the maintenance thereof, you're a captive audience. So they can do what they like.

[CaptnJack]

I'm amazed more of you don't have your own compressors. I've paid for mine in truck fuel savings several times over already.

[Desert Diver]

But not everyone wants to make sure that their compressor is working correctly and not putting out CO and the O2 sensors are working and not too old and the oil is changed and the correct type and the filters are changed on schedule and have a place to put it with the correct power to run it and then take the time to watch it as it slowly fills a tank since few can afford one that will quickly fill a tank. I'm a do everything guy but I don't know if I would own a compressor if I had a local place that would do air and nitrox. For me to get fills I have to drive 75 miles twice. Once for delivery and once for pickup. For this I have a compressor. Not for whatever the guy charges.

[Norris]

I am certainly on board with the whip charge + cf. I gladly went that route when filling at Scotts. I just thought it a little odd that this place would just dismiss any kind of deal considering they were already hooking two tanks to the whips and the doubles in question only needed about 1k in air to be topped off.
I am just not a fan of this dive shop and have decided they wont get my minimal business or referral moving forward. Does that matter to them? Most likely not, considering.
For the record they do not empty the cylinders and these were both getting air! I, of course know that I am able to go ahead and spend my money with the people that I want, but really just wanted to see if others would have been a little miffed with this, or was I a little out of line when I felt a little nickel and dimed.

I'm going with feeling a little nickel and dimed and have already made my decision, I thank you for your input.

[kdupreez]

I'm amazed more of you don't have your own compressors. I've paid for mine in truck fuel savings several times over already.

It depends.. if you live close to a dive shop and you get a good deal, you wont easily make up for spending thousands upon thousands in compressor + booster cost and upkeep..

if you mostly dive air or nitrox, a small setup will cost about $5,000 and it takes a while to recoup that at maybe $5 savings on a fill.. if you dive 100 single tank dives per year it will take over 8 years..

BUT if you are not close to a dive shop and you dive pretty often and dive nitrox or trimix all the time.. yeah, a compressor setup is a no brainer..

That said.. air fills and nitrox fills help keep shops in business.. it will be hard for the community and industry to sustain iteself without dive shops..

I think if you have a decent conversation with a dive shop and you are a regular there, they will cut you some slack..

For example the "regulars" at 5thD get access to "Annual Nitrox Cards" for like $250 or something thats a "all you can eat" Nitrox32.. nitrox is then free on Trimix fills and you pay small (compared to other retail shops) fee per cuft for helium.. he probably makes a loss on that, but it brings feet through the door..

All dive shops are operated differently and they all have their own way of figuring whats the best to keep them in business.

[BillZ]

business owners are free to charge any amount that they see fit for a product or service and we as consumers are free to buy it or not. It's the way of the free market.

I got tired of paying $32 to top off my HP 100's so I now drive to West Seattle and pay less than half of that. Free market in action!

[ohopdiver]

You are not the first to get snotty service from one individual at one shop.
You may receive very different service at other shops owned by the same company and from other people at the same shop.

[Tangfish]

My 2psi on this (I'll charge you the same as I would've for 3000psi of advice) is that there are two things wrong here:

1) their policy is not conducive to repeat business, thus they have to scrounge as much revenue as they can out of existing business. Shortsighted if you ask me.

2) you didn't ask before you had them fill it.

Probably nothing will change #1, but #2 you have some control over. If it were me, I'd forgo the convenience and spend my money elsewhere, at a shop I want to support, since contributing to one that you don't like just keeps it there longer, imho.

I just had something similar happen the other week. I *did* ask if there was a difference between topping off an argon bottle vs just a set price for a fill and the guy answered that I'd only pay by the cu/ft. So he had me use the spg to show him how much was in the bottle (just over half). He filled it, then charged me for a full fill. While the shop did make an extra few bucks off of it, and it is in a very convenient location for me, I won't be going there again. Plenty of other people will though, I'm sure. Such is the dive shop business I guess.

[Norris]

Wasn't really needing information on how different people have different personalities, I lernt that from the interwebs...

I walked in assuming I was going to pay to have a set of doubles and a single filled and in turn pay full price. I checked the pressure before leaving the house and was lost in thought on my way there. This is where I thought to myself, 'I will be using 2 whips and receiving much less air than if I was filling two empty, single tanks. It seems to me that if I ask to not pay the extra money for the doubles, it might be considered.'
Mind you I already figured I would be paying full price for the fills, but thought I would ask. I think it was the way it was answered and the somewhat snide sound in the voice that kinda miffed me. "If I am filling doubles, I will be charging for doubles."

I use other shops and get GREAT deals on fills and will certainly continue to use them. The shop in question will not get another cent from me as that is my choice as a consumer.

The question was, "As a shop owner, would you have answered the same?"

I would be inclined to think that many of you would not; or the very least maybe even spit out a quick reason for refusing to treat this fill as 2 tanks.

[ljjames]

If the shop employees have to move the doubles _at all_ they should be charging triple. If you walk in, ask them very specifically where you can put them so they won't have to move them and which way to face the valves, and then you do the moving afterwards, I can see in theory 'treating it like a single tank fill' if you are a pleasant customer. But there really is so much more than just the fill going on there. Consider that some shops have whips that don't quite reach and they are still going to have to maneuver the heavy set of doubles.

A lot of times (and this doesn't sound like the case) folks lug in their doubles still kitted up, and plop them down. The employee then may or may not get to unscrew the reg and wrestle shit out of the way to get the whip into place for the fill (a single tank is just so much easier to manhandle) They have to fill slowish cause the diver will bitch its a low fill and they can't use the water tank without herniating a disk. Sometimes they have to move the dubs to get some singles in there whilst waiting for them to cool, again, more strain on back than a single tank. Speaking of the water tank, its not just to keep the tanks cool, there is actually discussion that the water would help absorb some blast were a rupture to occur (kind of like the water filled barrels on the highway). Folks may disagree, that is fine, but generally speaking I consider doubles more of a pain in the arse than a single tank, EVEN if the cuft being filled is the same

And now for a little thread drift, apologies up front.

Consumers look at fills as a commodity (i'm not even going to go into the maintenance etc for a large volume compressor and heavily used filtration system), but in reality, as far as things their employees do, they are the most hazardous thing in the shop. I'm not just talking about rupture (since that is rare) but all the loud decibels associated with the compressor and loud sharp noises associated with relieving pressure on the tanks, and the occasional burst disk or o-ring rupture. Shops advocate wearing ear-protection, but I don't see that happening 100% of the time, because its a service based industry and you walk in and want to talk to them too. As a customer, you may experience the loud noises once in a while but I don't even want to think of the number of young men (and women) who have mild/moderate hearing damage from their time spent as jr tank monkey at their local shop to pay for their obsession, and never put 2 + 2 together when they are diagnosed later in life with some lost decibels or ongoing tinnitus. Additionally employees can suffer lower back and rotator cuff tears from wrestling them around. You can argue that 'hey, they just should have used better body mechanics', but tell that to a 19 year old.

OK, putting the soap box back into my left drysuit pocket

[Rooinater]

I'm assuming it's the north Seattle shop? Yeah, I won't get fills there anymore. Same problem, it's a particular person or 2. When I lived up there, one person could do math and realize filling doubles from 2500 psi wasn't 2 empty tanks... The rest couldn't, and one was darn right rude when all I did was ask, because the guy 48 hours prior charged me for one tank... He acted like he was going to fire the guy for charging me for only one tank fill... Therefore I get my fills elsewhere, from tech oriented shops and garages, unless I'm desperate.

[lynchpit2]

Concerning compressors.
After paying $36 for 2 32% nitrox fills from a shop in Vancouver Wa that just raised their prices, I installed a nitrox stick in my own compressor in February 2014.
In the last 12 months, I have calculated the savings on fills to be about $4000 considering I have been filling a couple friends tanks as well.
I calculate the O2 cost per 119cf tank at 32% to be about $1.50.
If a shop is doing Stick fills to charge for doubles when the CF is far less than a single is not right.
I do not think even having to move a set of doubles is reason enough to charge that much.

Just my own 2psi.

[Desert Diver]

If you are going to get into actual cost....in Mexico I found I could get air fills for 20 pesos, $1.50 and nitrox fills off a membrane system for 40 pesos, $3.00. Electricity costs there are 5-6 times what I pay and at least 3 times what you pay on the coast. I don't know what the moral of this story is. Maybe that the price for the fill doesn't have much to do with the cost of the materials and electricity. I also have had dive shops there throw in nitrox for "only" an extra $12/dive and say they didn't really have any profit in it. Wish I could make bad profit margins like that!

[kdupreez]

People tend to forget that you dont just look at Oxygen cost..

Dive shops use at least Aviator or Medical, which cost quite a bit more than "welding" grade oxygen. $15-30 is cost per 250cft, depending on your volume.. you can typically not use all of it and leave about 300-400psi in there (leaves you with about 220 cuft usable) if you partial pressure blend..

If they have it delivered, which costs about $35 per delivery. Then you also get charged TAX and Hazmat fees.. if you dont own all your cylinders, its $9 per month for those.

Worst case a normal "air" dive shop that "opportunisticly " sells nitrox through PP blending and rents 2 Oxygen tanks, will have to factor in about $0.30 pure cost per cuft ft for oxygen..

So, double 100's thats roughly $8 for Oxygen Portion..

Then you add cost of annual compressor maintenance, electricity supply, O2 compatible air filtration stacks, labor on compressor maintenance (usually done externally), quarterly air purity testing..

Since this is a partial pressure blending method, you need a booster and annual maintenance and oxygen cleaning of that costs a decent penny.. (and usually done externally)

That bumps a doubles fill to at least about another $8 on pure equipment and maintenance cost..

Then you add in the some decent per hour wage you are paying your employee to wrangle tanks around, manually mix O2 and air..

So add another $10 (at least) for labor..

Then some cost of running a dive shop like rent, insurance, etc. etc. needs to go on-top of that..

SO - net pure cost of a "mom n pop" dive shop that doesnt typically pump Nitrox, but will do on request to fill a set of doubles HP100 with Nitrox32 using Partial Pressure:

Oxygen: $8.00
Fill Station Cost: $8.00
Labor Cost: $10

TOTAL = $26 pure cost..


Now if you were a high volume Nitrox shop, and you continues blend using a stick and you own all your tanks this drops down to about $15 cost I'd say..

Scuba industry is a low volume high margin business, so I can kind of see charging anything between $25-35 for a set of Nitrox32 Doubles..

Obviously when you run a small 3.5cfm compressor at home with no bank bottles and continues blend and dont have labor or all these other operating expenses, you could do it for $5-10 per doubles fill.. but be prepared to spend an hour watching it filll.. also pack your own filters, maintain your own compressor, fix it when it breaks, buy O2 cylinders, pickup from supplier, do annual air tests, etc. etc. etc..

[ohopdiver]

My opinion: This forum should not be used to attack local businesses, be it a charter or shop, because someone doesn't like their business model.

[mandible]

Also, many shop setups do not show the pressure that is inside of the tank when you first hook it up. The pressure of the tank is only shown on a guage when the fill pressure surpasses the pressure in the banks.
If that was the case then it's your fault for not telling the person what the pressure in your tanks were before hand.

[kdupreez]

Also, many shop setups do not show the pressure that is inside of the tank when you first hook it up. The pressure of the tank is only shown on a guage when the fill pressure surpasses the pressure in the banks.
If that was the case then it's your fault for not telling the person what the pressure in your tanks were before hand.

Not knowing what the fill pressure is in the tanks when you hook them up? I've never seen that.. Either way, seems he did volunteer that information...

While carting them back I asked..."so considering the doubles are over half full and I am filling another tank too, will you be treating my doubles as a single (I even carried them to the fill station.l)?

[rjw]

My opinion: This forum should not be used to attack local businesses, be it a charter or shop, because someone doesn't like their business model.

Thought the OP did a pretty good job of not attacking. No Names or locations were mentioned.
However he felt he was treated poorly. I would have to agree.
With Sound Aquatics moving out of state there is a void in the north end. Would think an established business in this area would be trying to fill that void and attract those customers instead of driving them away.

[CaptnJack]

Also, many shop setups do not show the pressure that is inside of the tank when you first hook it up. The pressure of the tank is only shown on a guage when the fill pressure surpasses the pressure in the banks.
If that was the case then it's your fault for not telling the person what the pressure in your tanks were before hand.

These panel(s) are setup incorrectly. The gauge on the panel should be downstream of the check valve between the banks and the panel. So the gauge reads the whip/tank pressure at all times.

[Norris]

Wow,
So to shine a light on a couple things...

Did not call out the shop's name as it is not my intention of bashing a shop. The shop's name or actual location has not been confirmed, and lets just say its between North Seattle and the Canadian border.

I knew exactly what I had in my tanks prior to walking into the shop. I carried my own tanks back to fill station, and I noticed the doubles were filled right where I placed them.

I have been a patron there since opening day and like to spend money in shops as I think its important to keep them around. If it's a substantial purchase I may shop around, but the little stuff, sure why not pay a little extra to keep them open.

I have no issue with what I pay to get a tank filled in a shop. Koos broke it down nicely and I get that they don't have a huge return when it comes to fills.

This was a one-off and I assumed that my request was not out of line considering everything I have mentioned. I am no longer going to the shop due to the customer service and lack of recognizing divers that have invested in their business since day one.

My feelers are not hurt, and as a consumer I do what I want, and choose where to spend my money.

Thanks for the input and I have read numerous posts on the discussion of fills at LDSs and totally agree that they need to recover costs. I am an advocate of per CF charging + whip charge. Sound Aquatics is surely missed. With all that has been said I think some agree that this was a bad response to a reasonable request. I might have felt a little different if it wasn't barked at me as it was, or even elaborated on why he denied it.

**update
I ended up having 2 fills on my card there, and he eventually decided to just go ahead and charge me for two. I assume it was the 1/2 hour he had to think about his response. Also could have been to help him try and sell me another fill card, which I denied.
Did it change the way I feel about the shop, no. His knee jerk response and somewhat snide response in the first place is what lost my business with them.

[CaptnJack]

His knee jerk response and somewhat snide response in the first place is what lost my business with them.

Its amazing how influential these kinds of snippy offhand comments are. FAR more than price or the time it takes on a special order or really anything else. They really shape who gets my money too.