Big tank to borrow?

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ScubaJess
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Big tank to borrow?

Post by ScubaJess » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:07 pm

Hello Fellow Divers!

Happy Wednesday!
Does anyone have a large tank I can borrow or rent for my Gods Pocket Trip next week?
I'm using a HP 117 right now, but maybe a 130 would be even better? :pirate:

I would be very greatful!! :notworthy:
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Penopolypants
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by Penopolypants » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:46 pm

I have 119's which aren't really an improvement over the 117's you're using. You're welcome to take them though.

If you've never dove a 130, I would try it beforehand to see what it's like. I absolutely despise them, and the weirdness of diving with them offsets the fairly minimal extra air, for me anyway. YMMV.
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ScubaJess
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by ScubaJess » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:57 pm

Penopolypants wrote:I have 119's which aren't really an improvement over the 117's you're using. You're welcome to take them though.

If you've never dove a 130, I would try it beforehand to see what it's like. I absolutely despise them, and the weirdness of diving with them offsets the fairly minimal extra air, for me anyway. YMMV.



I've never used one, good to know, maybe I will just stick to my 117 :)
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LCF
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by LCF » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:09 pm

Funny, the only issue I have with the 130s is their weight on land. They dive just like my HP100s.
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Nwbrewer
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by Nwbrewer » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:29 pm

I think it depends which 130 (PST or worthington) I actually hater them both, but the PST I had I disliked more than the worthington. 119's are about perfect for me diving locally. I'd let you borrow mine, but it's out of vip at the moment.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by GearHead » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:14 am

I really like my FX117s. They offer the best capacity per weight of all the larger tanks. For a place like God's Pocket, I use a multi level dive profile - 20 min around 80 fsw, followed by another 25 min or so around 40 to 50 fsw, then a nice safety stop at 15 fsw in one of the many conveniently located kelp beds. With decent air consumption (on Nitrox) you can do hour long dives before you get too cold.

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Tom Nic
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by Tom Nic » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:56 am

ScubaJess wrote:
Penopolypants wrote:I have 119's which aren't really an improvement over the 117's you're using. You're welcome to take them though.

If you've never dove a 130, I would try it beforehand to see what it's like. I absolutely despise them, and the weirdness of diving with them offsets the fairly minimal extra air, for me anyway. YMMV.



I've never used one, good to know, maybe I will just stick to my 117 :)


I LOVE having a larger tank on those epic trips where I want to wring every second out of every dive (safely, of course).

That said, my .02 psi worth is that you be sure and dive that tank BEFORE the trip. Any extra gas you might have is not worth diving unfamiliar equipment. I know that God's Pocket is NOT cheap, and I'd hate to be giant striding into the most amazing stuff I've ever seen and have my trim be "wonky" or be uncomfortable in any way when I should only be drinking in all the amazement!

Have an awesome trip!
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by Grateful Diver » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:18 pm

... big tanks can also get you in trouble if you are doing multiple dives per day over multiple days ... always gotta remember not to overstay your welcome, as if you get in trouble the nearest chamber can be many hours away.

A 117 will give you plenty of bottom time ... particularly for someone with a relatively low consumption rate.

Also something to consider ... OC can't "keep up" with CC, because the CC will maintain a steady PPO2 ... so pushing limits can get you in trouble in other ways if you don't pay attention to it.

Larger tanks are not a panacea ... they're great as long as you pay attention to ALL of the variables, and not just the amount of gas they give you ...

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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by CaptnJack » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:31 pm

Nearest chamber taking recreational divers is in VANCOUVER! The Navy chamber in Victoria no longer accepts recreational divers. Make absolutely sure a patient advocate (friend, buddy etc) goes along for the multi-hour ride, the chamber can be disorganized and care can be significantly delayed even once you arrive too. Assuming you can actually get a ferry out of Nanaimo you are about 9hrs away from the chamber. The north island air ambulance resources are not what you'd imagine/expect.
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YellowEye
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by YellowEye » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:08 pm

Good context guys!

I don't think we're planning on going deeper than 50 often (best wide angle photography is at that level). But i'm not an OC expert (haven't dove it much in ages) so have no idea without looking it up if that redlines you on longer dives after that amount of diving. Thoughts? Either way, we will watch carefully.

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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by renoun » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:03 am

CaptnJack wrote: Assuming you can actually get a ferry out of Nanaimo you are about 9hrs away from the chamber. The north island air ambulance resources are not what you'd imagine/expect.

Not getting bent is a better option but Airlift Northwest's Seattle or Juneau based Lear 31 are pretty speedy (two hour flight from Juneau to Seattle) and if they are available should be able to land at Port Hardy in most conditions. If you have an accepting physician at VM (coordinated by DAN) a direct retrieval to Seattle may be a option worth considering rather than relying on the BC Ambulance Service or driving yourself.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by Grateful Diver » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:26 am

Eric, there will be dives you'll want to go deeper than 50 feet ... the Themis comes immediately to mind. But for most of the best ... like Browning Wall, Rock of Life, or Seven Tree Island, you won't want to spend a lot of time deeper than that. But in that case, a 117 is going to be plenty of gas ... and assuming that Jess is using nitrox, she should be able to spend 70 minutes or longer per dive without issues. My caution is primarily to watch more than just the SPG, as that only gives you one data point, and she won't want to suddenly find herself with a deco obligation ... they're not rocket surgery, but managing it should require some training, which I don't think she's had yet ...

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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by CaptnJack » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:26 pm

renoun wrote:
CaptnJack wrote: Assuming you can actually get a ferry out of Nanaimo you are about 9hrs away from the chamber. The north island air ambulance resources are not what you'd imagine/expect.

Not getting bent is a better option but Airlift Northwest's Seattle or Juneau based Lear 31 are pretty speedy (two hour flight from Juneau to Seattle) and if they are available should be able to land at Port Hardy in most conditions. If you have an accepting physician at VM (coordinated by DAN) a direct retrieval to Seattle may be a option worth considering rather than relying on the BC Ambulance Service or driving yourself.


You'll have to clear customs to get back to VM. After hours they'd have to call customs to come out. You're still hours and hours away.

Honestly if got mildly bent anywhere north of Nanaimo I'd self treat for an additional 30 to 60mins before heading south.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by LCF » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:06 pm

BTW, the God's Pocket folks REALLY prefer LP tanks . . . they absolutely LOVED our LP72 doubles, because fill pressure was 2400 psi, which was easily within the reach of their setup.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by renoun » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:01 pm

CaptnJack wrote:You'll have to clear customs to get back to VM. After hours they'd have to call customs to come out. You're still hours and hours away.

In the case of diving at God's Pocket you have the time while you transit back to Port Hardy to figure out your destination and how to get there. Flight time for a Lear to arrive from Seattle or Juneau is about an hour.

One of my good friends was a dispatcher/communicator at Airlift NW for many years. He was over for Easter so I asked him about flying people out of Canada and Port Hardy specifically. Since they operate dedicated planes staffed with pilots/nurses (many medevacs are done with chartered jets that are usually configured for passenger service) with a medical interior they typically had the Lear Jets airborne within 15min. of the decision to fly. He said that they flew people in from Canada on a regular basis and it wasn't a big deal. There are some air fields in coastal BC that they flew the Lear into once and said never again but after looking at the specs for Port Hardy he didn't think it would be a problem to fly there unless it was terribly foggy, in the middle of a bad storm, unusually hot, etc. BFI is a 24/7 customs port so clearing on arrival isn't a big deal and the have a Rolodex with unpublished back office numbers for customs, airport managers, etc. to expedite the turnaround at the other airport.

If anybody cares enough to do contingency planning for their trips I'm sure you can call the ALNW office and talk to somebody in operations, send me a PM if you aren't successful. I know that one of their flight nurses is a diver who also works shifts in the chamber at VM, I'm sure he would be able to give realistic answers to what a timeline would be if you had to get out of rural BC and could get somewhere they could land.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by CaptnJack » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:12 pm

We've done the math, it sucks. Especially for my Canadian buddies since they can't (realistically) fly down here for treatment. Its better in WA than in Florida which only has 1 chamber willing to accept divers. But still pretty bad outside of the Seattle metro area. Its not just the transit time either. Not sure about anyone else but for my ride, the VM mobilization time was about 2 hours between my walking in the door and them starting to bring the chamber down to 60ft (start depth for a Table 6).

If you are in really bad shape like my friend with a vestibular hit (they thought she was having a stroke) the timeline is actually longer since they need to rule out anything and everything else. Virtually all electronics and diagnostic instruments are banned from the chamber (fire risk) so you get the full workup for all possible differential diagnoses beforehand. She had to wait hours and hours while vomiting on the floor. :(
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by johndo88 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:49 pm

To pile on a bit, you are probably going to want to be on 100% O2 at the onset of symptoms. So unless you have a bunch of D cylinders with you, Airlift Northwest (and what I assume is an onboard O2 supply) would be a better option.

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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by CaptnJack » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:52 am

johndo88 wrote:To pile on a bit, you are probably going to want to be on 100% O2 at the onset of symptoms. So unless you have a bunch of D cylinders with you, Airlift Northwest (and what I assume is an onboard O2 supply) would be a better option.


The reality is that you will end up at the Port Hardy "hospital" for awhile.

Or assuming you aren't in critical condition already, you could do another dive and treat your 'sports' injuries yourself.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by Nwbrewer » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:45 am

CaptnJack wrote:Or assuming you aren't in critical condition already, you could do another dive and treat your 'sports' injuries yourself.


O2 via FFM and suit heat? :stir:

My experience going into an ER with (an admittedly minor) diving injury is that they really won't have any idea what to do with you, and if you're conscious, and no bleeding out, you're not going to be very high on the priority for them. If you believe you NEED to get in a chamber, go there ASAP. I know DAN and others recommend going to the nearest ER, but **for me** if I'm in the PS region I'm driving straight to VM, if I'm as remote as Port Hardy I think I'd make an effort to self treat while waiting for an evacuation.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by Jeremy » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:10 pm

ScubaJess wrote:Hello Fellow Divers!

Happy Wednesday!
Does anyone have a large tank I can borrow or rent for my Gods Pocket Trip next week?
I'm using a HP 117 right now, but maybe a 130 would be even better? :pirate:

I would be very greatful!! :notworthy:


Any other questions? :popcorn:

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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by CaptnJack » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:05 pm

Nwbrewer wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:Or assuming you aren't in critical condition already, you could do another dive and treat your 'sports' injuries yourself.


O2 via FFM and suit heat? :stir:

My experience going into an ER with (an admittedly minor) diving injury is that they really won't have any idea what to do with you, and if you're conscious, and no bleeding out, you're not going to be very high on the priority for them. If you believe you NEED to get in a chamber, go there ASAP. I know DAN and others recommend going to the nearest ER, but **for me** if I'm in the PS region I'm driving straight to VM, if I'm as remote as Port Hardy I think I'd make an effort to self treat while waiting for an evacuation.


The problem is you can't arrange for any kind of flight if you aren't in the ER. Once you go to the ER, saying you are going down the street to self-treat makes it seem like you aren't a very serious case. Even if your symptoms are progressing and getting back in for 45mins progressively ascending from ~50 to 0ft would be the "best" option under the circumstances.

You don't need a FFM, you don't even need O2.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by LCF » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:38 pm

I will tell you, from the viewpoint of the person working IN the ER, that if you are presenting to an ER in a major city (like Seattle) you will immediately be entered into a triage process. Triage means sorting patients by the perceived urgency of their medical problem. People who are having heart attacks or acute strokes, or who are bleeding to death or seriously infected, will be seen first. People who MIGHT be having those things, but it isn't clear, will be seen second. If your elbow hurts, even though there is an appropriate treatment for this which is curative, it's still going to get triaged to a low level, which means waiting. When you add that to the fact that few ER physicians or nurses know ANYTHING to speak of about DCS, you have a recipe for a problem.

You would think it could be solved by being insistent -- but it is an unfortunate fact of life that the patient who is being annoyingly pushy about what appears to be a minor problem is pushing himself DOWN the triage ladder.

That's one of the reasons I think DAN is so fabulous. You can activate them yourself; you can get a trained medical professional on the phone who can speak to the people caring for you and convince them, in their own language, that your problem has the potential to become much more serious, and that there exists a truly curative option -- that's something we love in the ER, because so much of our work consist of propping up people who will never truly be well.

But the bottom line of all this discussion is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you are going to dive in remote area (and God's Pocket certainly qualifies) use the principle you were taught in your OW class -- make your dive 10% or so more conservative than you would make it, if you were diving somewhere closer to home. Use Nitrox where you otherwise wouldn't; keep your depths reasonable (and up there, there's no reason to go deep, really, to see cool stuff), and skip a dive now and then if you aren't feeling absolutely sparkly.
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by spatman » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:43 pm

Classic NWDC- an innocent "I want a bigger tank" thread turns into "you're going to die!" Lol. :grouphug:
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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by BillZ » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:07 pm

spatman wrote:Classic NWDC- an innocent "I want a bigger tank" thread turns into "you're going to die!" Lol. :grouphug:


Ya probably succeeded in scaring the shit out of poor ScubaJess - Now she won't even use the hottub without nitrox and a and an O2 bottle for deco. :-)


It would be interesting to ask the owners of Gods Pocket what their plan is for evacuating a bent diver. I'm sure people ask about it all the time and they have probably had to evacuate a few divers over the years.

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Re: Big tank to borrow?

Post by Grateful Diver » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:32 am

I think Jess can handle the occasional digression ... nothing as simple as an internet conversation's gonna keep her out of the water. As usual, I think Lynne had the best points to make ...

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