Advice needed for Weight Training for Scuba

[lamont]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25479992

Abstract
Firefighting is a hazardous task associated with a heavy workload where task duration may be limited by air cylinder capacity. Increased fitness may lead to better air ventilation efficiency and task duration at a given heavy work intensity. This study compared performance, air ventilation and skeletal muscle oxygen extraction during a maximal graded walking test (GWT), a 10 METS (metabolic equivalent) treadmill test (T10) and a simulated work circuit (SWC). Participants (n = 13) who performed the SWC in a shorter time had significantly lower air cylinder ventilation values on the T10 (r = -0.495), better peak oxygen consumption (r = -0.924) during the GWT and significantly greater skeletal muscle oxygen extraction during the SWC (HbDiff, r = 0.768). These results demonstrate that the fastest participants on the SWC had better air ventilation efficiency that could prolong interventions in difficult situations requiring air cylinder use.

I think I'm done here.

A more consumable and available writeup here: https://sphhp.buffalo.edu/content/dam/s ... %20Air.pdf

Note:

"Interestingly, the association between air consumption and fitness was stronger than the association with body size so larger firefighters with greater physical fitness are more efficient at ventilation than small, less fit firefighters."

[Desert Diver]

I really don't disagree with you Lamont. Fitter is better in an individual. It's just that fitter doesn't have much correlation with SAC or with being able to get your gear to the water and back. That has a lot more to do with experience, comfort and diving ability than with body mass index and ability to lift weights and run marathons.

[mpenders]

...fitter doesn't have much correlation with SAC or with being able to get your gear to the water and back. That has a lot more to do with experience, comfort and diving ability than with body mass index and ability to lift weights and run marathons.

This is not accurate. Yes, SAC can be influenced (sometimes greatly!) by experience, comfort and diving ability. This is great while you're underwater.

However, that same experience, comfort and diving ability won't get your equipment-laden butt in and out of the water. Fitness and strength and endurance will.

I understood the OP was looking to improve his strength, in order to better prepare his body for the physical demands of shore diving. Such as getting from the parking lot to the water with an additional 50-100lbs on his back - and then getting back to the parking lot. Reread his post - there's no mention of trying to lower his SAC rate, or to even improve his "fitness".

Great idea, methinks.

[Grateful Diver]

If I can interrupt the argument for a moment (I'll get back to it, though) to recommend something on the original topic, consider kettlebells ... as they provide both a strength and cardio component to the workout. There's a fellow lives out on Bainbridge Island, Israel Sanchez (aka "coach izzy") who's written a very good book detailing kettlebell workouts specifically for diving fitness ...

http://kettlebells-for-a-fit-diver.com/

He's a friend of mine. I've worked out with him. I own the book, and some kettlebells ... and for a home workout they're terrific, as they don't cost as much as the machines people often use at home, and they take up less space.

Getting back to the train wreck ... as a diver who's struggled with weight my entire life, I will say that I see some rationale in both sides of the ensuing argument, but I think you're all focused on the less consequential aspects of the argument. Certainly better fitness improves your air consumption. Whatever metabolic arguments you want to use are completely overshadowed by the simple fact that better fitness means less effort for the same result ... and the less physical effort you apply to anything, the less you're going to need to breathe. Also, from a practical perspective, air consumption rates are also mostly controlled by technique ... good technique can make up for a lot of deficiency in fitness levels, and even the most fit person will use more air if their technique is poor. So you really need to compare apples to apples ... and a lot of the anecdotal evidence that creeps into these discussions doesn't really do that, as it fails to consider divers with equal degrees of technique when making comparisons.

The simple fact is that local diving is mostly from shore, and as such you're going to generally be working the hardest getting into and out of the water ... more relevant to the latter, since getting out almost always involves some degree of walking up a hill or stairs with your gear on. There's no substitute for physical strength in that case ... and excessive exertion after an aggressive dive profile really isn't that good of an idea. So the better shape you're in the better off you'll be. The whole idea that fat people make better divers is absurd ... we're humans, not pinnepeds, and as such we're not built for carrying around excessive amounts of blubber. So whatever perceived benefits you gain from extra weight, it eventually takes its toll on your joints and lower back as you walk around carrying your scuba gear to and from the site. We are, of course, all different ... and many of us get away for years or decades with carrying that extra weight on our bodies. But that doesn't mean it's useful, or that it won't catch up to you in the long run. I just turned 64 ... and the reason I made the effort to lose a bunch of weight last year is because it was starting to catch up with me ... and I want to still be an active diver a decade from now.

Diet and exercise ... the former being way more important if the objective is to lose weight, while the latter is for gaining muscle and cardio fitness. So you need them both. It really is just that simple ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[inflex]

Wow, never thought cave diving is like a firefighter's SWC. Sounds like a great workout.

In any case, your excerpt below entirely misses the point. It demonstrates nothing other than perhaps shorter periods of exertion on the surface result in less air consumption. But again, that much should be obvious as less time spent doing something also means less time spent consuming breaths of air. Duh.

What's easy to forget that the urge to breathe is driven by CO2. Train train train on cardio and fitness and you've increased your O2 consumption. Guess what? Your CO2 production also went up and that's what causes the urge to breathe.

So, back to my original point. Cardio and weight training needs to be tempered with a mentality and knowledge to actively train for CO2 tolerance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25479992

Abstract
Firefighting is a hazardous task associated with a heavy workload where task duration may be limited by air cylinder capacity. Increased fitness may lead to better air ventilation efficiency and task duration at a given heavy work intensity. This study compared performance, air ventilation and skeletal muscle oxygen extraction during a maximal graded walking test (GWT), a 10 METS (metabolic equivalent) treadmill test (T10) and a simulated work circuit (SWC). Participants (n = 13) who performed the SWC in a shorter time had significantly lower air cylinder ventilation values on the T10 (r = -0.495), better peak oxygen consumption (r = -0.924) during the GWT and significantly greater skeletal muscle oxygen extraction during the SWC (HbDiff, r = 0.768). These results demonstrate that the fastest participants on the SWC had better air ventilation efficiency that could prolong interventions in difficult situations requiring air cylinder use.

I think I'm done here.

A more consumable and available writeup here: https://sphhp.buffalo.edu/content/dam/s ... %20Air.pdf

Note:

"Interestingly, the association between air consumption and fitness was stronger than the association with body size so larger firefighters with greater physical fitness are more efficient at ventilation than small, less fit firefighters."

[lamont]

Train train train on cardio and fitness and you've increased your O2 consumption.

You keep arguing this but you're just wrong. For the same amount of work you consume the same amount of O2 and expel the same amount of CO2, you don't increase your O2 consumption. By increasing your cardio fitness you increase your ventilation/lactate/anerobic thresholds. That means that there is a threshold beyond which cardio fit divers will have less ventilation and have to work less and consume less O2 than unfit divers. VO2max is a measure of peak output which can be sustained, it doesn't mean that athletes consume more O2 while sitting on the couch.

[lamont]

Also if you think that overweight people have lower resting metabolic rates, that is also entirely incorrect and is now considered a myth, e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9467223

"It was shown that overweight men and women have increased resting metabolic rate as well as increased total energy expenditure when compared to their lean counterparts."

So all other things being equal a lean diver will have lower O2 consumption and ventilation on the couch than their obese counterpart.

[carlk3]

Greeting,

I'm the original poster (OP). Thanks for everyone's suggestions (and for keeping the topic active by broadening the topic). I thought folks might enjoy a short-term follow up.

I've started Coach Izzy's Scuba Diving Fitness: Kettlebells for a Fit Diver. Because kettlebells are novel to me, that adds some fun. I also like that a kettlebell workout avoids the perfect symmetry of my running or of dumbbells and barbells.

The least expensive way that I found to start the program is:

• Kindle book, $39. - (You can preview the e-book, including the part about which size bell to get)
• Kettlebell, delivered for $1/pound, so $25 for the one bell I need for the program. (Coach Izzy recommends fancier ones, but these a great for the price)

Buying the e-book gives you access to much of the material on http://kettlebells-for-a-fit-diver.com/, although for more money you can get even more access. I also rejoined my local gym, Crunch at Crossroads in Bellevue ($40/year + $10/mo), who have a full set of bells.

- Carl

[Gdog]

This is really a great discussion. Also, its nice that is has went on without turning into a flame war. The various opinions and facts are all valuable info to any diver concerned with this topic. Thanks for keeping it friendly!

[Desert Diver]

I have already said that weighing less and being in good condition SHOULD improve SAC, my impressions watching other divers lead me to believe there are other things that are much more important. We need a guinea pig. Should be a very experienced diver so they are not improving their air consumption simply by gaining experience and comfort under water. The subject should know what their SAC is. They should lose a lot of weight and get into shape and then tell us what it did to their air usage. So tell us Grateful Diver, what did you see?

[Grateful Diver]

Now that there's funny ...

I happen to be someone who keeps track of these things. I started with a very good gas consumption rate, back when I was in the 250-260 lb range. What I saw as I lost weight was a slight decrease in gas consumption that tracked, over time, with my weight loss ... or maybe it was just all those hours at the gym that were doing it rather than the more streamlined figure ...

All I know is that at 200 lbs I was using less air on average than I did at 260 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[ljjames]

Where is the like button!!!!

[lamont]

I have already said that weighing less and being in good condition SHOULD improve SAC, my impressions watching other divers lead me to believe there are other things that are much more important. We need a guinea pig. Should be a very experienced diver so they are not improving their air consumption simply by gaining experience and comfort under water. The subject should know what their SAC is. They should lose a lot of weight and get into shape and then tell us what it did to their air usage. So tell us Grateful Diver, what did you see?

That also describes me, although I've only gone from 230 down to 190.

Although I've also hovered around 190-195 at varying degrees of cardio fitness and found that higher cardio fitness meant less air usage and longer cave dives.

There are things that are much more important:

- if you are a CO2 retainer either naturally or through smoking you will use less gas
- buoyancy control, trim, efficient propulsion, etc underwater will let you use less gas
- comfort in the water will let you use less gas

And you can have fit divers with 1,000 dives who still dive nervous and use more gas. While more experience generally leads to more comfort, everyone goes at their own pace, and some progress slower than others.

[ljjames]

At the end of the day, the type of dive you do will also impact your gas use probably more than anything. I can float around all day in water, doing nothing, shooting macro and use almost no gas. If I'm swimming with reasonable effort, pushing around a big camera and towing a bunch of cable and/or a float I can give a 300b outta shape blimp sized lungs dude a run for their gas hoovering money. And honestly, the fact that I CAN and do work that hard underwater is something I'm proud of.

Bring the gas you need or adjust dive time accordingly. There is no shame in that. This gas-shaming stuff leads to skip breathing and headaches. I always feel so bad when some new buddy apologizes ahead of time, shuffling their feet, embarrassingly saying: "i'm kind of a hoover... sorry if i cut the dive short" really seriously, don't apologize, at least if you are diving with me, I honestly don't mind and it won't be the first or the 100th time. (no matter what they do, generally speaking, they will probably never come out with more gas left over than me on the same dive, I've got tiny preemie lungs and probably some other weird mutations best left unknown).

I would prefer folks relax and have a fun dive as opposed to be overly worried about if they have more or less gas than their buddy at the end of the dive. Like really. enough already. worrying about gas will make you use more gas! #justsaynotoSACrateshaming

[Desert Diver]

Good post Laura. And thanks for chiming in Bob! That would be what I would expect. A gain, but not a big gain. Comfort in the water along with all the things that come with experience such as trim is the big gun in the SAC game. And Laura hits it just right. Bring enough gas. I also see people get into the idea that they can't end the dive till the gas is gone. As I've gotten better with air usage I'm really happy to hit the surface with lots of gas.

[Grateful Diver]

I would prefer folks relax and have a fun dive as opposed to be overly worried about if they have more or less gas than their buddy at the end of the dive. Like really. enough already. worrying about gas will make you use more gas! #justsaynotoSACrateshaming

I'm with you there, Laura. I spend a lot of dives mentoring newer divers, and I try to encourage them to not put pressure on themselves or worry about things like gas consumption. Heck, when I was a new diver my friends used to tease me they could see the sides of my tank moving when I breathed. And there were plenty of times we'd come in because I was down to my bare reserves, while they still had more than a half tank of air left. But they dived with me anyway ... and I always try to remember that and pay it forward to the newer divers I dive with.

New divers always tend to worry they're going to "ruin your dive". I like to assure them to just relax and have fun ... the only way they're going to ruin my dive is to worry about things to the point where they're not enjoying themselves, or if they get so focused on the small stuff that they miss something important and we end up in a rescue scenario.

If you just relax, the SAC rate will take care of itself as you get in more dives and develop your technique. Focus instead on having fun ... that's the reason we dive, after all ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jeff Pack]

Or just switch to a rebreather. Be a big fat @ss, smoke, drink, hoover all the gas you want, and still outlast your buddys

[inflex]

Train train train on cardio and fitness and you've increased your O2 consumption.

You keep arguing this but you're just wrong.

Nope, you're the one in the wrong on this. More fitness is higher oxygen consumption and more CO2 production and greater urge to breathe. Nobody is arguing this as it's simply fact (you can only argue opinion).

On the other hand, I've already stated that weight loss leads to lower SAC; but pound for pound, fitness increases SAC. Fat consumes a lot less oxygen than muscle. Again, unarguable fact.

Again, the point is to not forget about both ends of the ATP equation - O2 and CO2 when discussing fitness for diving.

[CaptnJack]

Nope, you're the one in the wrong on this. More fitness is higher oxygen consumption and more CO2 production and greater urge to breathe. Nobody is arguing this as it's simply fact (you can only argue opinion).

On the other hand, I've already stated that weight loss leads to lower SAC; but pound for pound, fitness increases SAC. Fat consumes a lot less oxygen than muscle. Again, unarguable fact.

Again, the point is to not forget about both ends of the ATP equation - O2 and CO2 when discussing fitness for diving.

Not sure where you got this from but its completely backwards. The fittest people are going to have resting heart rates in the 40s and resting respiratory rates around 9 (breaths per mins). Obsese people weeze and have a heart rates of 90 and respiratory rates of 18 just standing up. Fit people use O2 much more efficiently than the unfit which leads to lower respiratory rates (good), reduced SAC rates (good), and a propensity to unconsciously retain CO2 (bad).

[Desert Diver]

I started to answer that he was wrong on this but remember he is saying "pound for pound" If a fat person weighs 150 lb and a fit athlete weighs 150 lb the fat guy uses less O2. I kind of think that is right.