( Caution ) man suspect in wife's diving related death

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scottsax
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Post by scottsax »

I think this sounds like excellent post-dive conversation over beers (or wine or soda or nachos or whatever), lest we forget what we're here for....

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Joshua Smith
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Post by Joshua Smith »

I firmly believe in "innocent until proven guilty," the right of a person to face their accuser, trial by a jury of one's peers, and all of that stuff. I've followed the story of the West Memphis 3 for years, as well:

http://www.wm3.org/splash.php

And I support the innocence project. It's true, we could go back and forth about this case until the cows came home without anyone changing anyone else's mind about anything. I simply said that it sounded fishy to me, no pun intended. He could be innocent, but he could also be guilty. I'm kind of glad that it's not my job to decide, in this case, at any rate. Maybe we should think about just letting this one go- there's nothing much any of us can do to to alter the outcome of the trial, or change eachother's minds about the husband's guilt or innocence.
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Sounder
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Post by Sounder »

I'm with you Pez! As you know I've also spent considerable time around felon d-bags and have helped keep people like you in business!

Every inmate in prison is innocent... just ask them. The few that will admit they aren't innocent still have an excuse why it wasn't totally their fault or why they got screwed into going to prison.

Sure there are good and bad cops, but when you've been around good cops and bad guys for a while, your spidy-sense about people becomes razor sharp.

If the FBI is still looking into this, there is a reason. They've probably got enough to KNOW he's guilty, but might not have enough admissible evidence for a conviction. Should they just quit or keep trying to find more evidence to put the POS where he belongs?

It's just a different beast and while some people have bad experiences with bad cops, imagine having to deal with the scum of the earth everyday at the office. You start to develop biases just as everyone does in their own industry. The difference is the d-bags you deal with at the office aren't trying to kill you.

(stepping down off my d-bag soapbox) :rr:
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Sounder
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Post by Sounder »

scottsax wrote:I think this sounds like excellent post-dive conversation over beers (or wine or soda or nachos or whatever), lest we forget what we're here for....

:occasion5:
I love Mack & Jacks. Anyone else? Mack & Jacks is great beer. What other beers do people like? I need some suggestions for my next party.

:partyman:
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Pez7378
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Post by Pez7378 »

Blitz wrote:
Pez7378 wrote: I come from a world where the bad guys are guilty. Period. Therefore they must work very very hard to prove their innocence. If one piece is not fitting the puzzle, end of story.
Did someone yank the whole "innocant until proven guilty" "Beyond a reasonable doubt" and "burden of proof lying on the accuser" thing out of the law when I wasn't looking?

Dude, I know what circumstances you formed your opnion from because I know you and what you do for a living, but you can't err on the side of guilty in every case. There has to be due process...... Providing you have enough money to pay for it....
Mark, you are absolutely right, those principles still apply, before they go to prison. Once they are convicted and go to prison they are guilty as far as the law is concerned. Prison rules only require "some" evidence as opposed to "beyond a reasonable doubt", and now the burdon of proof falls on the accused as opposed to the accusor. And they lie. About everything. A guy gets seriously assaulted, and he will tell you he fell. It's up to us to determine how many times. Staff are responsible for addressing violations of the rules, when I hear a case, everyone gets a fair shake. But, they definately start out just a bit behind the curve. And I do have to consider the possibilty that the staff are abusing their authority, or acting maliciously because they got tired of being called any number of foul names, or got sick of constanly being disrespected. At least Im not telling them "Hi, Im Sgt So and So and I'll be hearing your case.....You're guilty. Now, how do you plead." or as some before me have done, "Is there anything you'd like to say before I find you guilty?" I know it may not seem so by what I have written here, but I am one of the most objective people there is when it comes to hearing infractions and issuing sanctions. It's just that for those that I have given a fair shake to, given the benefit of the doubt, or just simply judged in their favor, I have always been burned.....Always. The reality is that WE are not really running the place, they are. We have some control only because they let us. I know the system isn't perfect, I see it not working everyday, and everyday I see it failing I lose a little faith, I lose trust in our administration and I lose hope that one day we will get it together and learn to live in peace.
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Pez7378
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Post by Pez7378 »

Sounder wrote:
scottsax wrote:I think this sounds like excellent post-dive conversation over beers (or wine or soda or nachos or whatever), lest we forget what we're here for....

:occasion5:
I love Mack & Jacks. Anyone else? Mack & Jacks is great beer. What other beers do people like? I need some suggestions for my next party.

:partyman:


I think that's a perfect way to end this dismal conversation......Lets go diving, then have some Mac & Jacks!
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

Like I said, I do understand how you come to your conclusions.... and for the most part I agree with you after they have been convicted. (there will always be a number that slip through crack that really are innocent.... Just like the guilty ones that get away with it.) My argument is only that we shouldn't do too much speculation until he has been exonerated or convicted....


Now.... as for the beer..... Its always a good day for a Guinness.:)


Cheers,

Marc
Pez7378 wrote:
Blitz wrote:
Pez7378 wrote: I come from a world where the bad guys are guilty. Period. Therefore they must work very very hard to prove their innocence. If one piece is not fitting the puzzle, end of story.
Did someone yank the whole "innocant until proven guilty" "Beyond a reasonable doubt" and "burden of proof lying on the accuser" thing out of the law when I wasn't looking?

Dude, I know what circumstances you formed your opnion from because I know you and what you do for a living, but you can't err on the side of guilty in every case. There has to be due process...... Providing you have enough money to pay for it....
Mark, you are absolutely right, those principles still apply, before they go to prison. Once they are convicted and go to prison they are guilty as far as the law is concerned. Prison rules only require "some" evidence as opposed to "beyond a reasonable doubt", and now the burdon of proof falls on the accused as opposed to the accusor. And they lie. About everything. A guy gets seriously assaulted, and he will tell you he fell. It's up to us to determine how many times. Staff are responsible for addressing violations of the rules, when I hear a case, everyone gets a fair shake. But, they definately start out just a bit behind the curve. And I do have to consider the possibilty that the staff are abusing their authority, or acting maliciously because they got tired of being called any number of foul names, or got sick of constanly being disrespected. At least Im not telling them "Hi, Im Sgt So and So and I'll be hearing your case.....You're guilty. Now, how do you plead." or as some before me have done, "Is there anything you'd like to say before I find you guilty?" I know it may not seem so by what I have written here, but I am one of the most objective people there is when it comes to hearing infractions and issuing sanctions. It's just that for those that I have given a fair shake to, given the benefit of the doubt, or just simply judged in their favor, I have always been burned.....Always. The reality is that WE are not really running the place, they are. We have some control only because they let us. I know the system isn't perfect, I see it not working everyday, and everyday I see it failing I lose a little faith, I lose trust in our administration and I lose hope that one day we will get it together and learn to live in peace.
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lamont
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Post by lamont »

Sounder wrote: Every inmate in prison is innocent... just ask them. The few that will admit they aren't innocent still have an excuse why it wasn't totally their fault or why they got screwed into going to prison.
Sure, so you can't judge them by their statements alone, but some innocent people really are thrown into prison.
Sure there are good and bad cops, but when you've been around good cops and bad guys for a while, your spidy-sense about people becomes razor sharp.
I'd love to see an empirical test of this. I'll bet its better than flipping a coin, but its nowhere near 100%.
If the FBI is still looking into this, there is a reason. They've probably got enough to KNOW he's guilty, but might not have enough admissible evidence for a conviction. Should they just quit or keep trying to find more evidence to put the POS where he belongs?
Just like we knew that Saddam had hidden WMD programs and mobile chemical weapons laboratories. Even within the CIA the analysts assumed that the real evidence was so highly classified they couldn't see it but that someone in the administration must have it.
It's just a different beast and while some people have bad experiences with bad cops, imagine having to deal with the scum of the earth everyday at the office. You start to develop biases just as everyone does in their own industry. The difference is the d-bags you deal with at the office aren't trying to kill you.
And that is the reason why the cops aren't in a position to be judge, jury and executioner. Their job is to be aggressive in pursuing the law, not to be objective, and they lose their objectivity over the course of their career.
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Pez7378
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Post by Pez7378 »

God help me if we ever figure this out. I'll be out of a job!
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Post by spatman »

back to the topic at hand:
Pez7378 wrote:Lets go diving, then have some Mac & Jacks!
so does mac & jacks come in bottles? i'm hearing a lot about it, and just might need to bring some home with me the next time i'm up there.
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Post by Sounder »

spatman wrote:back to the topic at hand:
Pez7378 wrote:Lets go diving, then have some Mac & Jacks!
so does mac & jacks come in bottles? i'm hearing a lot about it, and just might need to bring some home with me the next time i'm up there.
No, it is only on tap. However, you can visit their brewery in Redmond (which isn't really close to ANY dive site) and bring home a growler (jug) of it. If we timed it right, I could bring a growler to a dive site for you.

... now there's a thought - growlers of Mack's for post-dive grillin' parties instead of bottles or cans of other stuff!! :partyman: Hey Rich - break out old smoky!
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Post by spatman »

Sounder wrote: If we timed it right, I could bring a growler to a dive site for you.
well, penopolypants and i are diving redondo almost all day this sunday! :partyman:
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Post by Sounder »

Sounder needs to get his neck seal replaced... and may be considering a new drysuit. Either way, he's not diving this Sunday.
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Post by spatman »

Sounder wrote:Sounder needs to get his neck seal replaced... and may be considering a new drysuit. Either way, he's not diving this Sunday.
no worries, sounder! they'll be plenty of opportunities to enjoy a growler or two!
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Post by Grateful Diver »

lamont wrote:
Sounder wrote: If the FBI is still looking into this, there is a reason. They've probably got enough to KNOW he's guilty, but might not have enough admissible evidence for a conviction. Should they just quit or keep trying to find more evidence to put the POS where he belongs?
Just like we knew that Saddam had hidden WMD programs and mobile chemical weapons laboratories. Even within the CIA the analysts assumed that the real evidence was so highly classified they couldn't see it but that someone in the administration must have it.
Anybody else remember Richard Jewell?

The FBI pretty much had him convicted ... the media finished the job for them. I doubt there were a dozen people in America who didn't think this guy had planted the bomb.

Turns out that Eric Rudolph was the guy they should've been looking for ... of course, they didn't know that until years later ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by Nwbrewer »

Sounder wrote:Sounder needs to get his neck seal replaced... and may be considering a new drysuit. Either way, he's not diving this Sunday.
It's not fixed yet? You need to get that thing taken care of. It's time to go diving......
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Post by Penopolypants »

Nwbrewer wrote:
Sounder wrote:Sounder needs to get his neck seal replaced... and may be considering a new drysuit. Either way, he's not diving this Sunday.
It's not fixed yet? You need to get that thing taken care of. It's time to go diving......
Agreed. C'mon Doug, it's been ages! :bounce:

I missed the "Rich barbequeing in his dry suit" dive, we should repeat this soon. :)
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Post by Nwbrewer »

Penopolypants wrote:
Nwbrewer wrote:
Sounder wrote:Sounder needs to get his neck seal replaced... and may be considering a new drysuit. Either way, he's not diving this Sunday.
It's not fixed yet? You need to get that thing taken care of. It's time to go diving......
Agreed. C'mon Doug, it's been ages! :bounce:

I missed the "Rich barbequeing in his dry suit" dive, we should repeat this soon. :)
Or you could tuff it out like me. I have a spare wetsuit you can use. We'll be the divercicle twins...... :occasion5:
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Post by Sounder »

Nwbrewer wrote:
Sounder wrote:Sounder needs to get his neck seal replaced... and may be considering a new drysuit. Either way, he's not diving this Sunday.
It's not fixed yet? You need to get that thing taken care of. It's time to go diving......
I absolutely LOVE my suit, but my LDS said they can't replace the neck seal. I've contacted another one who says they may be able to. If they can, I'm diving my brains out over the Christmas holiday.
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Post by Diver_C »

I expect to get back into diving on a more regular basis in a couple of weeks. Will bring out ol' Smokey too!

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Post by Nwbrewer »

Sounder wrote:
Nwbrewer wrote:
Sounder wrote:Sounder needs to get his neck seal replaced... and may be considering a new drysuit. Either way, he's not diving this Sunday.
It's not fixed yet? You need to get that thing taken care of. It's time to go diving......
I absolutely LOVE my suit, but my LDS said they can't replace the neck seal. I've contacted another one who says they may be able to. If they can, I'm diving my brains out over the Christmas holiday.
I'm telling you, a party balloon and some contact cement and you're set. If it floods we'll warm you up like this :violent3:
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Post by Grateful Diver »

Sounder wrote: I absolutely LOVE my suit, but my LDS said they can't replace the neck seal.
Why not?

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Post by Sounder »

Grateful Diver wrote:
Sounder wrote: I absolutely LOVE my suit, but my LDS said they can't replace the neck seal.
Why not?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Apparently the seal is attached using polymer tapes and there is a specific tool needed to replace it (that they don't have). Also sounds like the tool requires some experience and can damage the suit if it is used improperly.

I'm doing research to find someone with the tool and the experience to do it. It doesn't seem like it'd be a tough job, but then again I know nothing about seal replacement on drysuits.

Up to this point, this drysuit has been a dream. I LOVE the zipper and don't know why other suit companies don't use it - they're bomb proof! Run the zipper over with your truck - still works fine. Lube it once every 50 dives and it still works, but lube it once every 25 dives and it works incredibly well.
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Post by Penopolypants »

Sounder wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:
Sounder wrote: I absolutely LOVE my suit, but my LDS said they can't replace the neck seal.
Why not?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Apparently the seal is attached using polymer tapes and there is a specific tool needed to replace it (that they don't have). Also sounds like the tool requires some experience and can damage the suit if it is used improperly.

I'm doing research to find someone with the tool and the experience to do it. It doesn't seem like it'd be a tough job, but then again I know nothing about seal replacement on drysuits.

Up to this point, this drysuit has been a dream. I LOVE the zipper and don't know why other suit companies don't use it - they're bomb proof! Run the zipper over with your truck - still works fine. Lube it once every 50 dives and it still works, but lube it once every 25 dives and it works incredibly well.
Have you tried Superior Repair yet? It would suck if you had to buy a whole new suit.

http://www.drysuitrepair.com/
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Post by Sounder »

After a bit of research, I've got a couple other options to check out locally. I'm hoping to squeeze 30-40 dives into the holiday break from school... in a wetsuit if need be, but I've also got an offer to borrow a drysuit should mine not be ready. Crossing fingers...
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