More stupid LDS tricks

[camerone]

Sigh... I hate starting threads like this, but sometimes, you just have to vent.

I went diving the other day, and as I was prepping gear in the garage, I noticed that one of my O2 cylinders (a 19cf AL bottle) that I was going to use was just out of VIP. It had a little O2 - about 1300 psi in a 3k bottle - left in it after my last Neah Bay trip. I figured I'd use it the next time I went diving to get a quick rebreather dive in, and then open it, clean it, re-VIP it and go. While I was looking at the bottle, though, I also happened to notice that the hydro expires at the end of the year, and I definitely don't want to be without the bottle for a while this winter, now that I'm using my 19s instead of my 13s on my Evolution rebreather. I also don't want to open it up and clean it twice - once now and once in two months when the hydro goes. So, I figured that when it was empty, I'd just sacrifice a couple of months of expiry time and get it hydro'd.

Fast forward to today - I went out to the Oil Docks, and I managed to polish off the bottle in the shallows for the end of the dive. I came home, cleaned gear, removed the sling and headed off to a nearby LDS that I frequent. Over the years, I've blown a lot of dough there...way too much dough, but it's easy to do in this hobby.

I figure I'll drop the bottle off to be sent out to hydro, get it back in a week, then I'll O2 clean it, put it together, and re-fill it. In the mean time, I pulled off and hung on to the valve, as I'll clean it and rebuild it this weekend. I've got a little bit of spare time, and I'm going to make up a batch of cleaner, anyway, to rebuild one of my regs that's started to leak. So, what I'm dropping off is just a bare, empty AL-19 with no valve.

I go in there, and hand over the cylinder, tell him I just need a hydro, nothing else, and explain that I know it's two months early, but I really don't want the winter down time. In return, I'm told that they pick up on Friday and return the previous week's collection the Friday thereafter. No problem, I'm scheduled to be flying a lot in the next two weeks, anyway, so diving ops are going to be minimal.

I ask "how much is the hydro going to run me?"

He says, "the hydro's $18, and the VIP will be $25".

I say, "I didn't ask for a VIP, just the hydro. I don't need or want you to VIP my tank. If you feel like you must for your own purposes, that's fine, but I don't intend on paying for a VIP" (For those of you who know what's going on at this point, note that this is the shop VIP, with the resultant sticker, which I'm going to have to remove before I O2 clean it and replace it with one noting that the tank is clean. It's not the "yeah, it's empty and looks ok" check that the hydro station will perform as their "visual inspection" as part of the hydro routine.)

Seeing as I'm holding the valve, and I'm going to have to O2 clean the tank, and I VIP my own cylinders, there's absolutely no intrinsic value to me for them performing a VIP, as I'm going to have to do it myself, anyway, as I'll be the one punching the O2 clean sticker. In fact, there's negative value to me, as it means that the tank will sit for a couple of days in the shop until they get around to doing the inspection once it comes back from hydro.

"Oh, we can't do that. Shop policy says we have to do a VIP when we send out to do the hydro... but we have an eddy current machine to check the neck for you, and you'll need that."

I point out that (1) this tank doesn't need an eddy current inspection, as it's from the late 90's, after they stopped making the ones prone to neck cracks, and, besides, if you read the stamp, it's clearly not made of 6351 alloy, and that (2) using the eddy current on a tank of this material (6061) is not only kind of pointless on most machines, it often leads to false results.

He says, "All aluminum cylinders need an eddy current inspection."

Um, no, they don't. I don't know where he comes up with this one, but I think he must have overheard a few words out of context in a conversation between Santa and the Easter Bunny... or maybe there was just some really bad air in the tank he was breathing recently.

I start to get in to an argument, but stop, because there's no point having a battle of wits when someone's clearly unarmed.

I end up saying, "screw it," grab my cylinder and then leave. I end up a few blocks away at another LDS that says they'll have it back in a week, no problem...These other guys are friendly, but I don't shop there much, as they're not very technically minded, but at least they'll do for me what I want done... and they have their own hydro station. Yeah, it's a few bucks more expensive there for a hydro, but at least I don't have to worry about them wasting time doing utterly stupid things. If it weren't so dang inconvenient, I'd just run it down to FireKing myself, and that's probably what I'll do when I have six or so that are going to come due for hydro in the spring.

Sigh. If I'm ever in the situation where I need or would want someone else to do my VIPs, I've now completely lost faith in these guys to perform them...

[Maverick]

I just had the same discusion you had. I wasn't at an Underwater spo..... location was it. if so that explains it all Glad you found a place to do your hydro only.

[camerone]

I just had the same discusion you had. I wasn't at an Underwater spo..... location was it. if so that explains it all Glad you found a place to do your hydro only.

No, for the record, it wasn't an UWS, and no, for the record, since it's known that I frequent Matt's place for dive stuff, it wasn't NWSD. That's all I'll say.

[Grateful Diver]

Some dive shop employees must really think that their customers are stoopid ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Fishstiq]

I personally don't have an issue naming someone who I feel did me a disservice (5th D, anyone?), but I completely understand not wanting to name the shop/employee who you have an issue with too. I wanted to say however that I think it's great that you pointed out that it was NOT a shop that you are known to frequent and to name that shop. When publicly posting complaints about a business in our tight-knit community, I think it's very important to clearly protect other shops from the shadow of doubts. My hat (hood?) is off to you for protecting them!

[BUZO71]

It would be great to have a list of trusted shops in the Seattle area... As it is, I wouldn't spend a dime up there because it sounds like there are a bunch of rip off artists... From my own experience, the dive shop I went to last time kinda set me off. I rented two tanks but because of dive times, was only able to use one.

Now I know, I rented two tanks- I know this. But, I didn't use any air off the second tank. That shop is going to send that tank back out without filling it. Its not like they were short on tanks the day I rented mine. When I went back to the shop, I turn them both in as well as other dive equipment and told them three times the second tank was not used. Their answer was "ok."

Do I think I should have got my money back? No... but how about a coupon for a tank next time... I told the guy when I rented the equipment that the shop was close to the relatives I was staying with and that I would be in often. Then I spent like $100 in the shop (including the rental tanks and suit).

Ok, I'm off my soapbox.... BTW, I don't remember the name of the shop right now.... I think its in or around Woodinville

[John Rawlings]

It would be great to have a list of trusted shops in the Seattle area... As it is, I wouldn't spend a dime up there because it sounds like there are a bunch of rip off artists... From my own experience, the dive shop I went to last time kinda set me off. I rented two tanks but because of dive times, was only able to use one.

Now I know, I rented two tanks- I know this. But, I didn't use any air off the second tank. That shop is going to send that tank back out without filling it. Its not like they were short on tanks the day I rented mine. When I went back to the shop, I turn them both in as well as other dive equipment and told them three times the second tank was not used. Their answer was "ok."

Do I think I should have got my money back? No... but how about a coupon for a tank next time... I told the guy when I rented the equipment that the shop was close to the relatives I was staying with and that I would be in often. Then I spent like $100 in the shop (including the rental tanks and suit).

Ok, I'm off my soapbox.... BTW, I don't remember the name of the shop right now.... I think its in or around Woodinville

????? You rented the tanks, thereby removing them from the shop's rental inventory and making them unavailable to other customers. How does the fact that you chose not to use one change in any way the rental agreement you had with the shop?

I don't believe that something like this is worth smearing a shop's reputation on the internet.

As for a "list of trusted shops", that would be utterly subjective and completely based on personal opinions and experiences. One person here might really like a particular shop and trust it completely, while another person might despise that same shop because of an experience or what they have "heard".

Far better, I would think, if each of us would avoid attacking businesses and instead tell others about good experiences we have had with dive shops. Your post is a classic example: from all of the griping, pissing and moaning here on NWDC from other members about shops here in the Puget Sound area you have reached the conclusion that they are all "a bunch of rip-off artists".

There are many, many great dive shops in the Puget Sound area.

- John

[spatman]

As it is, I wouldn't spend a dime up there because it sounds like there are a bunch of rip off artists...

what are you basing this opinion on?

if you read through many of the threads on this forum, you will see a lot of praise for several shops in the seattle area.

Do I think I should have got my money back? No... but how about a coupon for a tank next time...

so if you rent a car for a day, but don't end up driving it, then you should get a coupon for a free car rental?!? i'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. you rented the tanks, but didn't use them, but the shop should pay you back because your schedule didn't work out? how is that, in any way, the shop's responsibility or problem?

[BUZO71]

Well, that's why I think the good shops should be listed as well as the bad shops. Somehow, if someone is getting ripped off by a shop they are somehow "protected" from mention??? I just don't see where that is beneficial to the group. It seems these types of things are happening more and more frequently. Nothing too serious, overcharge here and there, unnecessary inspections- does anyone see a problem with this?

In my example, what I'm really getting to is that customer service sucks. I never said I was entitled to a coupon or free tank. When I started diving, in California and then in Florida, that was the way it seemed to be. Of course where I lived, livelihoods depended on customer service. All I'm saying is that, a customer really should be more of a priority for shops. When I go somewhere to dive, that's what I'm looking for and it appears, since we never hear which shops are bad, us out of towners need to get ripped off ourselves to learn which shops are good and which ones are bad or just not deal with out of town, LDS's.

The thing is, I come here, to this website, for advise. Its too bad I can't get any on this subject.

(Wow, I knew I was going to light myself on fire for this ... but, wow)

[Phineas Gage]

Next time I rent a couple of movies I'm going to see if I can get credit for the ones I didn't have time to watch.

[BUZO71]

Next time I rent a couple of movies I'm going to see if I can get credit for the ones I didn't have time to watch.

again, missing the point....

I'll slow down for you.... customer service

[Dmitchell]

I'm curious why you took it to the dive shop in the first place. If all you wanted was a hydro the take it to the hydro place.

I'm not defending the guy at all but, if you bring me a tank for just a hydro, it's not worth my time. I would have sent you straight to the hydro shop yourself. You have to figure that at $18 there is zero margin. I would lose money on that transaction even if the hydro shop was across the street much less across town at $4.36 a gallon for gas.

That said, for certain customers, I would make the extra effort and take care of them, but I'm in business to make money and this transaction puts me in the red.


DM

[spatman]

I'll slow down for you.... customer service

no need to slow down, we're keeping up just fine.

it all comes down to what your expectations are as a customer. if you think an LDS, or any business for that matter, should reimburse a customer for items they rented and didn't use, then that's your opinion on how a dive shop should be run.

as you can see, there are others who disagree with you, and have differing expectations when renting from a dive shop, as well as differing definitions of customer service. we are all entitled to these opinions. however, publicly flaming a shop because they weren't as courteous as you'd have liked is the "not cool" part.

you want recommendations on a good shop? just ask. you'll get plenty of responses.

[Grateful Diver]

It would be great to have a list of trusted shops in the Seattle area...

You can find my personal list of trusted shops on my web site ... http://nwgratefuldiver.com/affiliates.html

This isn't by any means a definitive list of all the great shops in our area ... just the ones that I've been very happy dealing with. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of them to anyone coming into our area looking for a good dive shop ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BUZO71]

thanks Bob, good information.

[camerone]

I'm curious why you took it to the dive shop in the first place. If all you wanted was a hydro the take it to the hydro place.

I'm not defending the guy at all but, if you bring me a tank for just a hydro, it's not worth my time. I would have sent you straight to the hydro shop yourself. You have to figure that at $18 there is zero margin. I would lose money on that transaction even if the hydro shop was across the street much less across town at $4.36 a gallon for gas.

That said, for certain customers, I would make the extra effort and take care of them, but I'm in business to make money and this transaction puts me in the red.

Convenience, point blank.

They're down the street for me, and they've usually taken good care of me. FWIW, I've spent ~$30k there on equipment, training, and service over the years (no kidding on that $ amount). With the hours I work, it's a serious PITA for me to make it over to the hydro station directly when they're actually open, and then get back afterwards to retrieve it. Their hydro guy makes his rounds once a week, when he picks up and drops off tanks. So, literally, all they're doing is sticking it in the corner in the back, waiting for him to pick up, waiting for him to drop it off, and phoning me to let me know it's done... a five minute job, for which I'm willing to pay a couple of bucks, and, since I know when the hydro guy comes around, they don't even need to call me, as I'll just return to fetch it.

It may be a break even, but I would doubt it'd put them in the red.

FWIW, in Seattle, the retail hydro rate here in town is less than $18, and in bulk, wholesale, I'd wager that in volume, it's significantly cheaper. I have zero gripes with anyone making a couple of bucks marking it up (heck, I'd pay a couple bucks more, even, and did, just for the convenience factor of good hours and close location,) but I do have a serious problem with doing unnecessary work or coupling two absolutely unnecessary events together just for convenience. It's as bad as some of those online NY camera shop scams where they sell you a high-end camera "cheap" - too cheap, but you can't actually buy it unless you get their overpriced, worthless accessories package with it...it's miraculously always backordered, out of stock, or what-have-you, but conveniently available as part of a package. There's no difference here by coupling the two together...something of value to me (the hydro) with something that is worthless, overpriced, and unnecessary to me (the vip).

[Dmitchell]

Now I know, I rented two tanks- I know this. But, I didn't use any air off the second tank. That shop is going to send that tank back out without filling it. Its not like they were short on tanks the day I rented mine. When I went back to the shop, I turn them both in as well as other dive equipment and told them three times the second tank was not used. Their answer was "ok."

Do I think I should have got my money back? No... but how about a coupon for a tank next time... I told the guy when I rented the equipment that the shop was close to the relatives I was staying with and that I would be in often. Then I spent like $100 in the shop (including the rental tanks and suit).

Does Blockbuster give you a coupon when you don't watch a movie you rented?

DM

[Dmitchell]

Camerone

That's cool, I used to send my tanks to Seattle prior to us having a local guy. The wholesale cost was $15 plus p/u and delivery charges. I was sending 30-60 tanks at a time.

I hear what you are saying and in my case, you would be someone I'd do it for.

DM

[BUZO71]

I'll slow down for you.... customer service

no need to slow down, we're keeping up just fine.

it all comes down to what your expectations are as a customer. if you think an LDS, or any business for that matter, should reimburse a customer for items they rented and didn't use, then that's your opinion on how a dive shop should be run.

as you can see, there are others who disagree with you, and have differing expectations when renting from a dive shop, as well as differing definitions of customer service. we are all entitled to these opinions. however, publicly flaming a shop because they weren't as courteous as you'd have liked is the "not cool" part.

you want recommendations on a good shop? just ask. you'll get plenty of responses.

How is it publicly flaming a shop if you provide the facts of your experience and let others judge if they want to go to that shop.... If I knew no better and took my O2 bottle to this shop and I paid way too much, I think its important others know that... Bob had a friend in that situation... I'd like to know which shop that was and the facts in that case so I could decide if I want to give MY money to them.... its not flaming.... provide the facts and let people decide for themselves.

It seems the focus has turned from my point to my example... was it a bad example, sure.... refocus... my point is, if you have an experience you think is bad, why not post it... give the facts of the case and let everyone decide for themselves....

[Phineas Gage]

...if you have an experience you think is bad, why not post it... give the facts of the case and let everyone decide for themselves....

I think the primary reason for not doing this is that it's inherently subjective and anecdotal. So although some bad experience may be accurately depicted from the perspective of the poster, there will always be a question as to how comprehensive the account is, and therefore most folks would rather just not open up a potential floodgate of "shop bashing" based on that criteria alone.

Personally, I think you have to take the good with the bad at any business you patronize. The trick is finding a shop where the specifics of good and bad strike a balance that matches your personal priorities and concerns. I spend most of my money at a shop that I know some folks can't stand, and I totally agree with them on their points. But for me, the specific issues they cite don't matter as much. (Although there are times when I get pushed a little their direction too.)

[BUZO71]

I just think I'd like to know about trends in shops and that way I can have a better formed decision.... I might do the same in selecting hotels in another city on Orbitz or sidestep.

[Phineas Gage]

I just think I'd like to know about trends in shops and that way I can have a better formed decision.... I might do the same in selecting hotels in another city on Orbitz or sidestep.

Yeah, that would be nice. But how accurate would it really be? Human nature being what it is, the complaints will most likely always outnumber the kudos.

A more interesting angle (IMHO) would be for the dive shops to start setting up anonymous feedback forms on their websites. Seems like they would want the kind of honest criticism that would afford them an opportunity to improve when they see a trend in what folks are saying. Sure there will always be folks just venting, but filter through it and look at the big picture and maybe find a way to target some specific improvement to the business.

[Joshua Smith]

I just think I'd like to know about trends in shops and that way I can have a better formed decision.... I might do the same in selecting hotels in another city on Orbitz or sidestep.

But you didn't have a bad experience. You rented a tank you didn't use, and got charged for it. My condolences. In point of fact, we don't have that many dive shops in town. Most, if not all, of them run on pretty thin margins. There are easier ways to make money out there. And there's always someone ready to slander a shop - especially on the internet. If some shop does something blatantly out of line- like happened to fishstiq a while back- I'm OK with letting them write about it on here. If someone else insists on nitpicking some non-issue about any local dive shop, even if it's one I myself dislike- I'll delete the offending post.

[BUZO71]

Nailer, ya missed the point.... I'm done

[Joshua Smith]

Nailer, ya missed the point.... I'm done

No. No, I didn't.