Another Question

[Norris]

I have a friend who is a diver and didnt take the PADI course, but took the NAUI . He brags that the course he took somewhat scoffs at PADI as a suboptimal training module.
I have done some reading and it seems there are split opinions on the matter. I am currently taking PADI OW and I feel as though I am getting all the required information, as well as I am the type of person to do much of my own research. Sandra is a n excellent teacher and I am feeling confident on our open water dives (another tomorrow).

Our conversation yesterday revolved around safety stops. I was under the impression that if you plan your dive correctly, using the dive tables accurately then these safety stops are avoided (hence, no decom dives). He states that "No, you need to do safety stops on all dives, regardless of depth or time down."

This may be debatable and if so then please do so as I would like to know the collective opinion on this.

[spatman]

I have a friend who is a diver and didnt take the PADI course, but took the NAUI . He brags that the course he took somewhat scoffs at PADI as a suboptimal training module.
I have done some reading and it seems there are split opinions on the matter. I am currently taking PADI OW and I feel as though I am getting all the required information, as well as I am the type of person to do much of my own research. Sandra is a n excellent teacher and I am feeling confident on our open water dives (another tomorrow).

courses don't scoff, people do. what really matters not so much is the agency, but the instructor. as you progress in your training you may find yourself aligning with a certain program or agency. that is not to say one is better than the other, just a matter of personal preference.

[Tom Nic]

courses don't scoff, people do.

Excellent point Matt!

Norris, thank you for taking the time to post the question here. Whenever you talk organizations and dive philosophy there will always be differences of opinion, and sometimes that can get heated. We try and avoid that here, and as long as discussion is civil it's all cool. You'll find no shortage of opinions here on training and organizations. A couple of searches will no doubt turn up comments, and I'm sure that many will respond to this thread - although maybe not over the weekend, people are diving!

Continue with your PADI OW - you will learn solid basics of diving, and if you have a good instructor and are motivated you will come out a good beginning diver. Then, NEVER stop learning, and dive, dive, dive!

As to safety stops, it is a good practice to do them on every dive. It just makes for better diving and makes your body "happy". 3 minutes when you hit 20fsw is what your computer will ask for, and most divers I know do at least that. That and a slow ascent rate will always be the recommended procedure. I can't imagine an organizations that teaches that you don't have to do a safety stop. I seem to remember (I am not NAUI trained, but dive with many folks who are - they seem to be a fine agency) some mention of deep stops in some NAUI classes (I beleive around 80fsw or half your deepest depth) for a minute or so being recommended?

In any case, listen, learn, and compare. It's a good thing to dive conservatively - on most of my shore dives I'm coming up very slowly, taking pics the whole way, and it always makes for a better surface interval!

Good luck, and welcome to NWDC!

Regards,

Tom Nic

[LCF]

A lot of diving class quality is dependent on the instructor. If you are taking your class from Sandra Herrera, you are getting a very good class, and I think you can feel confident that she will prepare you well for your future diving.

There is a difference between a "safety stop" and a "decompression stop". People who do deep or very long dives will absorb enough nitrogen that they CANNOT go safely directly to the surface, at any ascent rate. They MUST stop in the water to offgas nitrogen on the way up. Those are "deco stops". Recreational divers are not trained to do this kind of diving. However, even recreational divers have to offgas absorbed nitrogen. Although people used to teach a 60 fpm ascent rate with NO stops, most agencies are now teaching a 30 fpm ascent rate with a "safety stop" in the 15 foot range. NAUI, I believe, is now recommending a longer stop at 1/2 your maximum depth, and a shorter stop in the shallows. These are all stops which CAN be omitted in the event that it is urgent to get out of the water, but they become more important as the depth and length of the dive increase.

[Norris]

Definitely noted, and he was speaking generally about what he felt the class thought of PADI and I assumed it was the opinion of someone he was either learning from or with. So a safety stop is certainly recommended and good practice is what I am hearing so far. Doing shallow dives 35-45fsw even should include a safety stop but can be avoided with a very slow ascend i.e taking pictures LOOKING AT EVERYTHING (which is where I am for sure). I was certainly not trying to start a flame war, but was really curious as to how this group thought. I have read SO MANY posts on this forum and have learned so much, I have concluded that I respect many of the opinions of you divers, as many answers don't feel biased in any way shape or form.
As for learning, you better believe it!!! I cant stop looking things up, referencing different sites, shopping for books, and scoping gear. I already see that I am going to teeter on obsession with all this.

[Nwbrewer]

Norris, you've gotten some excellent advice so far. It's the instructor, not necessarily the agency, the makes the class, especially for OW. I don't know your instructor except by reputation, and having met and dove with some of her former students. I think you're in good hands.

That being said, look at your OW card as a license to start learning how to dive, not as the end.

The only advice I would give is to seek out training from multiple instructors. (i.e. do your AOW with another instructor/shop) Between OW and AOW, go out and do some dives with a range of other folks. Watch how people are in the water. When you see somebody who dives in a way that you like, find out who they recommend for an instructor.

There's absolutely no harm on getting training from different places and people, rather than just sticking with the same shop for all your training. Good luck with your class and when you're done shoot me a PM, I'll go diving with you.

Jake

[Alex]

It's all about the Instructor. I would highly reccomend doing AOW soon after your OW. It wasn't until my AOW class that I started feeling like a diver and not a tourist

[Alex]

...actually it was probably my rescue class.

[airsix]

Norris,
I recommend you do a safety stop on every dive no matter what. Why? Because if you integrate it personally you'll never forget to do it when it really matters. Make safety a habit.

-Ben

[Alex]

I have to agree with what everyone else here mentioned. It's just prudent to do a safety stop as a part of your dive every time. Is it crucial? Not necessarily. However, it can only help.

I think as a part of good and safe diving practice you should do a stop at half your max depth and then one again at the 15 foot range.

I think another factor plays in to this as well. Most of the divers here do the stops and you're going to end up doing them if diving with us anyway. This is because in a dive planning conversation it's a lot easier to build a case for why to do a stop than why to avoid it. Therefore, chances are, your dive buddy will suggest that one be planned in to the dive. ...so just get used to it

[dwashbur]

For the basic OW class, I don't really think agency matters as much as having a good instructor. In that, I echo what has been said already. Beyond OW, I do have definite opinions. I did my AOW through PADI, but that wasn't the reason it was bad; the instructor wasn't all there. (I even overheard him acknowledging it to his wife!) One big difference I've seen is the written work that you do; NAUI has a fairly thorough workbook that makes you dig through the material and reinforce what you're learning. I found the "knowledge reviews" in the PADI books, pardon me, a joke. But I stress that that's just me. I don't claim it's that way for everybody.

When my wife and I decided to go further and get our Rescue certifications, we went to two different shops with two different instructors, one PADI and the other NAUI. We did it on purpose, because we wanted to be able to compare the courses side by side. We made sure each of us had a really good instructor, and I can honestly say the two instructors were of equal quality. When we compared notes afterward, in terms of the written and printed material, the pool work, the open water work and everything else, NAUI won hands down. Once again I emphasize that Your Mileage May Vary. That was just how our comparison came out.

If you have a good instructor you'll learn to dive safely. That's the bottom line. But as someone else said, that first C-card is a license to keep learning, so let that be your philosophy.

As for safety stops, the only times we have skipped one is when one of us had equipment or physical troubles (we once had to ascend without a stop because my daughter developed a nasty headache, for example). My computer and my wife's both count down the basic three-minute stop when we hit about 15 feet. The good part about a safety stop if you're shore diving is, you don't have to stay in one place. You get up to the 15 foot depth and explore at that level for the three minutes - it can frequently turn into more, because there's a lot to see at 15 feet - and then make your way in. That's one of the many reasons I like shore diving, because I can incorporate the safety stop into the dive, and sometimes not even realize I'm doing it until my computer says "Okay, safety stop is done." But again, if you just make it a habit from day one, then the first time you go to 100 feet and just reach the edge of your NDL, you won't forget to do your stop because it's your common practice.

Be sure and let us know when you're finished with your course, because there are plenty of people here who will want to dive with you, myself and my buddies included.

Welcome to an incredible world of discovery!

[spatman]

I would highly reccomend doing AOW soon after your OW. It wasn't until my AOW class that I started feeling like a diver and not a tourist

sorry, alex, but i have to disagree with you on this one. like i mentioned in norris' other thread, it's my belief that you should get out and practice the OW skills before rushing on to another class - a solid foundation is key to higher learning. i was ready to take AOW when i felt comfortable with the basic skills and knew i needed to take another class to improve further.

i'm actually in the process of eating my own words now, and not listening to my own advice. i finished my AOW with grateful diver only a few months and about 30 dives ago. i'll be finishing bdub's Core Components class (very similar to Intro to Tech, but for a single tank) this weekend, and guess what? i'm getting my ass kicked. well, spanked, really. in hindsight, i probably should have waited a little longer and honed my AOW skills a bit more before jumping on this class... but in the end it's all good, i guess. i'll just have a LOT more to practice than i did before...

[Metal man]

Yup, better safe than sorry on the safety stops !! Being a new diver myself, let me tell ya that there is still plenty to see at 20 feet, in fact a couple of us spent quite a bit of time today at the 8-15 foot level checking out critters :smt038

[Pinkpadigal]

Our conversation yesterday revolved around safety stops. I was under the impression that if you plan your dive correctly, using the dive tables accurately then these safety stops are avoided (hence, no decom dives). He states that "No, you need to do safety stops on all dives, regardless of depth or time down."

The tables are very safe and have been tested, and yes, according to the tables, a safety stop is only manditory if you are within 3 pressure groups of your no-deco limit, or 100 feet or deeper. However, as everyone has mentioned, a safety stop is recommended and should be done on every dive.

Chance are, you will be using a computer very soon (if not already) to plan your dives. With that said, your computer will automaticly start counting down a safety stop for you between 18-20 feet. For many of us, we see the best stuff during our safety stops and you can get some awesome photos too!

Unlike OW or Rescue courses, the Advanced Open Water course isn't a box, with a set of skills you must complete. It is a series of 5-12 dives (depending on the instructor and agency), in different enviroments that allow you to experience what it is like to dive at night, deep, etc with an instructor's supervision. Each dive has 1-2 skills that must be completed but the majority of the dive is just diving and enjoying the enviroment you are diving in.

When should you take the next coures? Good divers are always learning, be it diving for fun or in a class. When you take AOW, adventure diver or open water II (depending on which agency you go with), it really depends on what your goals are. Everyone on the board has an opinion of when the next step should be, but like dive gear, there isn't a perfect fit for everyone. The next course will help you with your fundamentals, and build confidence but what makes you a better diver is DIVING. The more you dive, the better you will get.

[BASSMAN]

I do safety stops on all dives.
Unless there is a malfunction we can't fix at at depth or at our safety stop .
PADI NAUI SSI DIR DIT YMCA ECT...Can't we all just get along and go diving? A review after each dive, What went well and what did not go so well is a good habit to develop.

[Sheri]

It's all about the Instructor. I would highly reccomend doing AOW soon after your OW. It wasn't until my AOW class that I started feeling like a diver and not a tourist

Actually, I have to agree with Spatman on this one, too. I jumped right in and took the PADI AOW class with about 15-20 dives under by belt - essentially, right out of OW. During, and even after the class, I felt about as "advanced" as a 1st grader in an organic chemistry class.

I'm actually in the process of re-taking AOW with Grateful Diver right now - 2 years and about 60 dives later. Now that I have more bottom time, and finally feel like I'm starting to be able to handle a little more task-loading, it all makes more sense to me. Even though I went through a lot of the same bookwork, back then, my check-out dives were more about, "I'll just do what they tell me and it'll be over soon.. " Retention of skills?? Not on your life. Now, its not just getting used to the feeling of diving.. it really is about building skills because I finally have the capacity.

Long way of saying, I think bottom time and diving with the folks here on the board can benefit a newer diver initially, even more than another class will...

[60south]

Echoing PinkPG and DaveW, often some of the best stuff is in the safety stop 'zone'. If you can structure your dives so that you end up in an interesting area for the safety stop, it makes things just that much more fun -- and if you find you have lots of extra air, you can often extend a dive and have a great time putzing around in a safe, shallow area.

Another reason not mentioned for a safety stop... Beginning divers (and some of us experienced divers, too!) occasionally have buoyancy problems, and this becomes exacerbated as you ascend. It may be worse when you're learning to use a drysuit. The safety stop is a chance to halt, adjust your buoyancy to neutral, and generally get control of things rather than rocketing to the surface.

glenn

[BigFameOne]

I think another important thing to remember is a safety stop doesn't have to be sitting still, staring at your watch count down 3 minutes. You can be cruising around checking stuff out but you can also take that time to practice basic skills. OOA is a skill for instance that I will want to practice much more, because when I really NEED that skill I will not want it to have been something I hadn't practiced since OW.