Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

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4ster
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Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by 4ster »

There is a public meeting about the Seacrest dock scheduled for 7:00 to 8:30 Thursday January 15 at the Alki Community Center.

It's probably a good idea for some divers to show up to voice public comment and to monitor developments. I live in Mount Vernon, but I might come down to see what's up. But I am not a sure bet. Can someone commit to attending this and to report what is said?
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Tangfish »

Is this relating to a proposed new dock or an existing one?
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by 4ster »

I don't know. The announcement was in the form of a post card sent to Bruce Higgins. He showed the card to me, there wasn't much more info on it than the date and time. This could be a routine meeting not of interest to divers or (worst case) it could be a "We need to close diving at Cove 2 to make it easier for the ferry" meeting. Seems to me someone should show up and see what's up.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Pez7378 »

This sounds like a job for the WSA or some of it's members if scuba diving will be a topic of discussion.

On second thought, I just found this:

Elliott Bay Water Taxi’s future: Public meeting set
November 9, 2008 at 10:30 pm | In Elliott Bay Water Taxi, Transportation, West Seattle news |
Less than 2 weeks after the Water Taxi ended its season, we’ve received word of another upcoming chance for you to have a say on its future: 7 pm Thursday, January 15th, is the time/date just set for a city/county-led public meeting at Alki Community Center, regarding both the WT’s anticipated move to year-round service in January 2010, and plans to improve the WT dock at Seacrest. Separately, the King County Ferry District comes up for $ reauthorization later this month and the county’s still taking your comments on what the Water Taxi means to you - dozens have come in, hundreds would be better: info@kingcountyferries.org

NOT a big fan of the year round service proposal.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by coachrenz »

The "improving the WT Dock" comment may mean some changes to the dive site and or dive area.

Don't we have some WSA Board members on this board? Maybe one of them could pipe in.

Mike?
Janna?
Valerie?
Eric?
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by fmerkel »

Well, it appears there was a server SNAFU and I and my posting was wiped out of existence... Oh well. So, again, near as I can recall.

First-this is NOT just a meeting for WSA. This is a meeting for as MANY divers as possible. The City NEEDS to know that we WILL be included in the planning process going forward.

There is a HUGE amount of history at Seacrest.
For several summers back in the late 1990 and early 2000 Seacrest WAS CLOSED TO DIVING while the Water Taxi ran. The law read that it was illegal to dive within 300 feet of a ferry. In 2001 they intended to run the Taxi through summer and into winter to test ridership effectively closing Cove 2 and 3 to diving for what appeared forever.

A group of concerned divers met to fight this as we've been there WAY longer than the Water Taxi. We formed working groups
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diversforseacrest/ A public group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FriendsofSeacrest/ An administrative group

For those interested in some of the particular history there is a LOT in there to digest. Diversforseacrest is open to anyone and has most of the relevant files you would be interested in.

Many meetings and many treks to the Parks Dept. and City Council did not make a lot of difference. The Parks Dept. was sympathetic, but the Water Taxi is Mayor Nichols baby and they were being strong armed to run it. Technically it is illegal to run a ferry in a Park (Seacrest is a Park). We persisted.....

We FINALLY DID get a meeting with Nichols. He only showed briefly but his deputy that stayed had to take testimony from a few hundred divers that DID show up. They changed their tune a little, change the law to 150 foot boundary (where it is now) and provided the material for the current boundary line and the dive community put it in and maintains it. We've had a decent working relationship with them since then, Kathy Whitman primarily.

They are not threatening to remove this access. But they do want to extend the service, maybe modify the dock for better Taxi access, and are setting this up to run there for an indefinite time. It would be easier if we went away.

The WATER TAXI DEMONSTRATION PROJECT FINAL REPORT 2001-2002 clearly indicates Seacrest is NOT an appropriate place for the Taxi. I'd say the will to make a permanent dock is there but the location and certainly the money to do so is not and I suspect never will be. We;re stuck with it.

So, the Taxi is likely to be with us for awhile. We need to make it clear that we MUST be part of the planning process as we are a MAJOR user of this facility and have done so LONG before the Taxi showed up. This is not a project to leave to someone else. This takes NUMBERS. If they don't see divers, they assume divers don't care. A few divers show only a few divers care. There are a LOT of W. Seattle commuters that care a LOT and to them we are a problem. As always parking for everyone is a big issue. Compromises for all concerned uses must be made. This is what this meeting is about; who uses Seacrest, who cares about it, and how will these concerns be worked out.

So, we need a good showing at this meeting so we can be counted. Here are the particulars:

SEACREST DOCK IMPROVEMENTS OPEN HOUSE
Parks, King County to host open house on planned improvements

Seattle Parks and Recreation, the King County Ferry District, and the King County Marine Division are hosting an open house from 7 to 8:30 p.m. Thursday, January 15, on the planned improvements to Seacrest Dock and the intention of the Ferry District to provide year-round Elliott Bay Water Taxi service. The open house, which will open with a brief presentation at 7:30 p.m., will take place at Alki Community Center, 5817 SW Stevens St.

The year-round Water Taxi service is slated to begin in 2010 and to continue to operate from Seacrest Park until a permanent site has been selected.

For more information, please visit the web site: www.kingcountyferrydistrict.org, or contact Paula Hoff at 206-615-0368 or paula.hoff@seattle.gov.


If you go to the link above and follow the Seacrest Dock Open House link you get a nice pdf file suitable for printing, posting, and dropping off at your local dive shop.
http://www.kingcountyferrydistrict.org/ ... nhouse.pdf

I hope to see a LOT of you there. If you use, like, and want this site to stay open I suggest you take and evening to attend.

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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Grateful Diver »

I am going ... if anyone wants to carpool from the Federal Way area, please let me know.

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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Diver_C »

This email is from Mike Racine from a listserv I subscribe to, and has good news for us, divers:

Folks,

I just spoke to Paula Hoff, the manager of the water taxi upgrade program at Seacrest. There is no danger to diving as part of the project. She unambiguously and emphatically indicates that diving at Seacrest Park will continue. Furthermore, the design of the new water taxi dock will be done so as to enhance dive safety vis-a-vis water taxi operations and diving. She indicated a “T” type dock will replace the current structure existing between Coves 2 & 3.

So, apparently diving is safe at Seacrest.

It might be good for a diver or two to show up at the briefing tomorrow night to get a first hand sense for what the new dock will be like and to see the plan from a diver’s perspective. Find out the input process, so that good ideas enhancing the co-existence between the water taxi, fishermen, and divers find their way into the mix.

Other volunteer obligations prevent me from attending. If someone does go, I’d appreciate a call or email with your assessment.

If you have any questions, call or email Paula Hoff at Seattle Parks & Recreation. 206.615.0368. She’s copied on this email.

Thanks.

Mike
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Pez7378 »

So what? No pre-meeting Beers? Let's go diving this weekend instead Rich.

This is good news as I was planning on Not attending a class in favor of the meeting. Now I can go to my class! =D>
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by BigFameOne »

Pez7378 wrote:So what? No pre-meeting Beers? Let's go diving this weekend instead Rich.

This is good news as I was planning on Not attending a class in favor of the meeting. Now I can go to my class! =D>

and I was planning on skipping beers to go to this meeting, now I can continue on to the beers.
Last edited by BigFameOne on Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Diver_C »

Pez7378 wrote:So what? No pre-meeting Beers? Let's go diving this weekend instead Rich.
Can't dive this weekend, as I have dive class this weekend. How about next weekend?
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by fmerkel »

Gad, SCUBA is littered with political wimps.

I appreciate that Mike R. DID take the time to call. Sadly, I did not. This IS an omission on my part.
OTOH, I'm gonna pull a tad of rank here as I was doing this long before Mike came on board.
I DID say this is NOT an attempt to take Seacrest away from divers. I still DO think that a STRONG showing will be EXTREMELY FAVORABLE GOING FORWARD in negotiations with the City for improvements, access, and problem resolution.

Like that shower? Brought to you by Jack Connick of the Marker Buoy Dive Club and working with Kathy Whitman from the City.
Like the surface marker buoys. Same source. The chains on these need to be replace on a regular basis. This is done by the SCUBA community. The City provides the chain and the floats. Getting this out of them is a painful process. Jack C. has been a trooper for this cause.
Like the cute barnacle encrusted pop bottles that float the line off the bottom? My idea. Hopefully to be replace with a more permanent solution.

There is a LOT of work that goes on in the background for YOUR SCUBA enjoyment. Believe it or not, getting into this realm can be rewarding. Just showing up is not such a huge imposition on your 'beer time'.

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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by BigFameOne »

Ouch I felt that jab, so if I can get away from my job in time I guess making a showing would in fact be of some use. Thanks for the heads up.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Pez7378 »

fmerkel wrote:Gad, SCUBA is littered with political wimps.
It's also littered with a bunch of condescending, self serving, know it all blow hards. It's what I love about Scuba. Underwater, I don't have to listen to such drivel. I'm not here for a bunch of Political BS. I get enough of that at work.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

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Chris, as someone who's spent a lot of time working and diving with Fritz over the past seven years I gotta say that was completely uncalled for.

If not for his efforts ... and those of a handful of other people who took the time out of their diving and beer drinking ... we would NOT HAVE Cove 2 available to us today. I know this ... because I was there and active back in the 2001-2004 time period when this was a huge issue in the dive community. Even back when there was a lot of talking about it in the general dive community ... there were usually only a handful of divers who cared enough to bother showing up to do the work. Fritz was always one of them. In the intervening five years, there have been even fewer ... but the efforts of those VERY FEW continued representing the dive community at large, and through those efforts you have showers, stairs, buoys, and a generally cooperative attitude with key people in Seattle Parks & Recreation. Without them, the scuba community would have no presence at all in the disposition of City resources. And I don't doubt for a moment that the reason why scuba usage is even possible in that cove today is because of their efforts over the past several years.

So instead of calling him a blowhard ... "Thanks" is a more appropriate response. Without Fritz, Randy Williams, Jack Connick, JD Rowe, and Rhoda Green, none of us would be diving there today. There were a handful of others who came out from time to time to help out, but those VERY FEW were the ones you could always count on to go to the meetings and show up at Cove 2 when there was work to be done. Everybody else seemed to be too busy diving and drinking beer to care. So if that makes someone a blowhard, I'm supporting the blowhards ... they're good company.

FWIW - I'm planning to attend tonight. Having been involved with these folks in the past, I plan to support them.

As for Mike Racine's e-mail ... that got posted to the list of the local Alki dive shop ... a group who uses the Cove 2 regularly but who never ... NOT ONCE ... ever showed up when there was work to be done. So it doesn't surprise me they don't think it's important ... they never did.

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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Pez7378 »

Thanks Bob.

I fully appreciate the work that has been done, by those that have come before us. I appreciate the showers, steps, buoys, ropes, lines, odds and ends etc. at all of our local dive sites. I appreciate the people who donate their time and money and energy, so that others can enjoy diving locally safely and comfortably.

Regardless of where Mr. Racine sent his message, I would not discount it's validity. If not for that E-mail I would be joining you at the meeting, but I would have cancelled a class that I have paid to attend.

I have not met Mr. Fritz. As everyone knows, the internet sometimes tends to lose the tone of the message. However, Mr. Fritz has posted about 4 messages, and three of the four I have found to be condescending, and insulting.

Mr. Fritz, Thank you for the time and effort you have spent over the years, improving the local dive sites and making it better for the rest of us.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by spatman »

We all appreciate the work that has been done by the few for the many.

Let's try to stay civil about this and work toward a common goal. Please leave demeaning generalizations as well as name-calling out of the rest of this conversation.

Thanks.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

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Pez7378 wrote: Regardless of where Mr. Racine sent his message, I would not discount it's validity.
I would ... Mike and the WSA have not been involved in the Cove 2 efforts. Validity comes from involvement. I'll take the word of those who've been doing the work.
Pez7378 wrote: I have not met Mr. Fritz. As everyone knows, the internet sometimes tends to lose the tone of the message. However, Mr. Fritz has posted about 4 messages, and three of the four I have found to be condescending, and insulting.
Then I have the advantage of personal experience ... I know Fritz, and he's one of the least condescending people you'll ever meet. In the years I've known him, I've not known him to be insulting to anyone.

From my perspective, there's been an assumption here that this is a job for the WSA ... and people are assuming that Mike, and the WSA, have been involved. I don't think that's the case ... certainly during the years I was involved, there was never any WSA representation in the effort. So if there's some resentment toward him appointing himself as "spokesman", that's understandable ... especially since he seems to be at odds with the people who have been doing the work all this time. If Mike ... or anybody else ... doesn't feel this is important enough to show up, that's OK. But I don't think it was very cool to be telling other people not to go.

As Fritz said ... there's a lot going on behind the scenes. Some WSA representation would've been appreciated ... but if they think it's not important, then let the people who've been dealing with the Seacrest Park issues these past 8 years get the job done, and elicit help from the dive community as they are able to.

I see Mike's e-mail as more of a hindrance than a help ...

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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by fmerkel »

Chris is right, I am being a bit snippy. OTOH what I see after a lot of effort over a lot of years is some divers taking any excuse at all of actually doing some work for the community at large. Divers do make the effort to show up for a night dive at Seacrest. Why is it so hard to show up around the corner to make sure they will continue to be part of the planning process going forward? The site had to actually get closed last time before divers paid attention.

If I sounded like I was blowing MIke Racine/WSA off, I certainly did NOT want to do that. Mike was not around when this was happening and has not been involved with this issue. There is no need for it-it's being taken care of. WSA is NOT the speaking voice for the whole community. WSA has way more on it's plate than it needs. Before Mike showed up and started working pretty tirelessly it didn't have much voice at all. That's another organization where a FEW people are doing a LOT of work for the community at large and the community at large occasionally surfaces, says "good going", and goes about their business.

Mike, and the entire Board of WSA are exceptional people and are working hard for divers. In return I would hope that the community supports them. Are you a member? JOIN!! Ever give them any $$. Like ANY small organization they mostly run on good will and the out of pocket expenses of the Board. Ever go to any of their meetings? Try it, good people to work with.

For a resource that all divers love and use routinely there is not a lot of action on the part of divers to make sure that resource continues to be available and worth diving in. We are sharing that resource with a LOT of people. In the political realm the loudest voice gets attention. If you are under water and avoiding my disquieting voice to participate in the planning process then you may get ignored going forward. For the Water Taxi the commuter voices outweigh the divers hundreds to one.

So, how DOES one get ANY community involved? It's a daunting task. Ask MIke, he's been trying to rally the dive community for years. Beg? They don't come. Insist? They don't come. Chide? They don't come. Insult them? They don't come and they feel justified in blowing you off. It gets really frustrating. But they show up to dive and have a beer after. Hey, that's the part I like best too, but there is more to diving than being under water-a lot more if you are serious about the sport.

Thank you Bob for the nice words. I'm aware that I don't have ANY tenure on this forum and my history from D2D certainly doesn't transfer.

If people are curious about my 'other transgression' it's in the thread on [Sudafed and Diving]-the only other one I've posted on. There is a significant amount of general diver misconceptions and continuation of old myths in threads like this. Seems a lot of people are content to not find out what the real facts are and continue to support the gossip that is common [ DAN say......when they've never actually looked up what DAN says]. I'm not as tolerant about this as I used to be and get snippy about that too.

I used to be kind of the unofficial "ENT' guy in D2D and did a lot of work with people having clearing issues. Not as good as seeing Dr. Ed Kay but often people only need to be pointed in the right direction. It's sad but the single largest medical cause of quitting diving is clearing issues and it barely gets addressed in diving classes at all. But I'm getting off topic.

I STILL continue to hope that some members of the community show up. Some of the old tired hacks of diving that have been working on this issue for almost 10 years will be there. Come meet the guys that have made that facility available to you.

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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Pez7378 »

I'm so Conflicted. On one hand, I would really like to attend and support our interests, our instructors, (who use Cove 2 to teach us) Mr. Merkel and those that have worked so hard. On the other hand, I cannot really afford to be throwing money away at classes I don't attend. If there was reason to believe that our ability to use Cove 2 for diving was in jeopardy, I'd be there without question.

Mr. Merkel, I'd be happy to meet you for a dive and a beer anytime. I'd like to hear more about how we can all improve the conditions at our local dive sites. I'm not an activist, and I don't like politics, but I am aware of the fact that sometimes we have to stand up and be heard. I certainly have much to learn about what goes on "behind the scenes" so that we are able to dive our favorite sites.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by fmerkel »

Is this a CRITICAL meeting? No. No need of anyone to dump important personal activities for this.
The one 9 years ago was. That only happened after about half a dozen of us harassed Parks and the City council a bunch. Took months of work to get that meeting.

OTOH it is a good place to get your political feet 'wet'. No need to do anything except show up and see what happens. This is nothing more than a showing of numbers and a look at what the City plans going forward. They did this before when the Taxi was first being put into service. NO DIVERS SHOWED UP! NO DIVERS WERE COUNTED! Therefore, no need to deal with divers. That was an oversight we paid for. Am I being over reactive? Possibly, but I don't want to end up in the same situation again when it can be easily avoided. This is a lot like preventative maintenance for a critical dive. I think Seacrest is an essential resource for the community, especially the instructional side of the sport.

The City DOES try to get input from citizens-that's what this is. Divers are not special in not wanting to get political. Hardly ANYONE wants to be political. Not many people are willing to do this work. I don't - it takes time, you need to do your homework, it's messy, and it takes seemingly forever to get anything done. It certainly is NOT a dive and beer with your buddies. I have absolutely NO idea why ANYONE goes into politics. But, it's the way things work. If it's important you stomp down your reluctance and join the fray once in awhile. It can be rewarding if you stick with it, like any complex project that ends up with good results.

So, got an evening free? Want to see how your City works in an arena specific to your interests? Show up. Hell, go out and have a beer after to reward yourself for the 'dunking'.
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Grateful Diver »

Chris ... don't skip your class. No need. My issue ... and I think Fritz's issue ... was the part of Mike's e-mail that said it was only desireable for one or two divers to attend.

I don't agree ... even if this meeting has nothing to do with diving, per se, our presence there sends a clear message that plans for this site should not be made without considering our interests. Politics is like that ... sometimes the best messages are those that are implied through citizen participation.

Relax ... enjoy your class. There'll be plenty of opportunities for you to get involved at a later time ... like when divers are needed to clean the boundary rope or replace the chains on the buoys.

Tonight I just think it's important for the dive community to be seen ... if not heard ...

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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Sounder »

I agree. Divers need to be there.

"Hi. We're here and we're interested in being part of this. We love sharing the park with all the other Seattle citizens and we're happy to help with whatever we can... but we're here, and we're happy to help, and we're happy to share our opinion... and we will if need be."

All that said, I have a class tonight too - one I can't miss. I would otherwise be there, regardless of what WSA says.

Speaking of WSA, why didn't Mike post that information on such a well-known, heavily used board that is frequented by several WSA board members like NWDC? Additionally, why would WSA discourage divers from being involved in ANYTHING that might have even a remote chance of affecting diving?
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by Grateful Diver »

Sounder wrote:I agree. Divers need to be there.

"Hi. We're here and we're interested in being part of this. We love sharing the park with all the other Seattle citizens and we're happy to help with whatever we can... but we're here, and we're happy to help, and we're happy to share our opinion... and we will if need be."

All that said, I have a class tonight too - one I can't miss. I would otherwise be there, regardless of what WSA says.

Speaking of WSA, why didn't Mike post that information on such a well-known, heavily used board that is frequented by several WSA board members like NWDC? Additionally, why would WSA discourage divers from being involved in ANYTHING that might have even a remote chance of affecting diving?
My guess is that Mike was responding to stated concerns on that forum that the meeting posed the risk that diving might be curtailed at Cove 2 with the advent of a new dock and year-round water taxi service. Perhaps he just wanted to calm jittery nerves and let people know it would be OK.

As to why not here ... I haven't seen Mike active on this board in a long time. On the other hand, he's quite active with the DIR community, and so it makes sense that he'd be actively participating on their local forum.

Other WSA board members are quite active here ... but as I said previously, I don't think WSA has much (if any) involvement with activities at Seacrest Park. They have a lot of other projects to work on.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: Upcoming meeting concerning Seacrest ferry dock

Post by fmerkel »

Mike would not likely discourage participation in any activity that pertains to supporting the diver environment.

I agree that his comments were more to make sure people didn't get the impression that access was at risk. I've tried to be clear that this is not the case and still encourage people to make a showing. This is one of those "clout associated with numbers" deals I think.

It might be worthwhile to 'validate' myself a tad. I did just APPEAR on the screen kind of abruptly and with a heavy message. Here's a colorful example.

In Dec. 2006 Gov. Gregoire came to town to roll out her 'Save Puget Sound' program officially with a press conference. There had been numerous citizen meetings and a blue ribbon panel working on gathering input from the region. I had given testimony at a number of those meetings along with some of my Marker Buoy members. As you might expect the political, social, scientific, monetary, ecological, etc. aspects to saving and cleaning up Puget Sound are profound. This is a body of water our entire community depends on for almost everything. At any given meeting I don't think I ever saw over 100 people. Generally only a handful gave testimony. I was impressed by the ones that did. In my opinion there should have been thousands of people.

Mike Racine contacted some of the community to help with this press event. We were to dive in the new Myrtle Edwards Sculpture Park - a unique opportunity not to be had again. Gov. G. and entourage was to show up at that little cove in the park and we would come out of the water for a great photo shoot and have a charming and informative chat with the Gov. about what we saw in the Sound. Weather did NOT cooperate. Wind blew from the S at 40-50 that day. 3-4 foot pounding waves at the Park.

To try to salvage the photo opportunity part of the session we donned suits anyway and went to the press conference at the (not yet officially opened) meeting hall above the park. Here's a couple of pictures:
Mike Racine being interviewed and and a great shot of the back of my head. Notice the [Troubled Puget Sound] poster in the background.
Mike Racine being interviewed and and a great shot of the back of my head. Notice the [Troubled Puget Sound] poster in the background.
I'm the guy in center in blue-my Aquarium togs. The woman in green to the right is Karlista Rickerson/WSA. The tall young woman behind the Gov. is Gloria Youngblood, my wife's Aquarium Dome partner during her Dome orientation. Notice the drysuits - HOT! We were in those things a couple hours. Tough duty. Assume you recognize the Gov.
I'm the guy in center in blue-my Aquarium togs. The woman in green to the right is Karlista Rickerson/WSA. The tall young woman behind the Gov. is Gloria Youngblood, my wife's Aquarium Dome partner during her Dome orientation. Notice the drysuits - HOT! We were in those things a couple hours. Tough duty. Assume you recognize the Gov.
Attachments
The waves that day were a bit daunting.
The waves that day were a bit daunting.
To Air is Human,
To Respire, Divine.
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