What to do about the silt

[airsix]

With an order for 25 shirts or more, we can print them fairly cheaply. :angry:

I like the concept a lot - I've even got a design improvement suggestion.

I'm in.

So what's the design improvement idea?

-Ben

[Jenbowes]

Ditto and ditto.

Should it have the dive flag somewhere on it, too?

[Sounder]

Ditto and ditto.

Should it have the dive flag somewhere on it, too?

No dive flag. :angry:

[ljjames]

I totally agree with Bob here... LOL....

"Scout the Silt-monster Seal pup"

Did you ever watch him careen out of control and plow into the bottom leaving a moderate size mushroom cloud in his wake?

maybe a cartoon drawing of a seal pup wallowing in the silt with a mushroom cloud of silt in the background, with divers heads poking out of the silt cloud with their spools in hand...

Jan K could do a great one like that I bet!

FWIW,

Every time I've posted video of the 'style's of diving' even done without poking fun or mocking, I was chastised for doing just that "you're gonna hurt people's feelings!". I have about 5 miles of mini DV tape illustrating frog kick and silt free technique vs. bicycle / flutter / etc... silt monster technique. In some cases with the frog kicking diver in the foreground and the semi-vertical bicycle kicking diver making a cloud in the background.

Silty the Seal would work better ... anybody who's dived with the damn things will know why ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jenbowes]

No dive flag. :angry:

Okay, okay, quit yer yellin'!! -----> :angry:

:-)
So what ARE your suggestions?

[Sounder]

I'll post a couple videos as examples of how you too can leave a dive site the way you found it as a token of respect for the wildlife and your diving community.

Here is a video showing some highly-silting techniques next to some non-silting techniques. For those who want to see what a frog-kick and a back-kick look like in contrast to other finning and buoyancy techniques, here is a video (not a Rick Roll this time, promise) showing things. The group in the background consists of instructor candidates and course directors. Video HERE.

Here is a video of Lamont, taken my Laura, diving the I-beams in Cove 2. He's providing another excellent example of no-silt finning and buoyancy techniques. Video HERE.

This kind of technique isn't hard to learn, and it's not unique to DIR or UTD diving (a common myth). Anyone can learn how to dive like this. Scott Christopher (vbcoachchris) is teaching a class listed HERE which is designed to teach these exact skills and many more. It's not just for divers who have technical aspirations, it's for ANY kind of diver who wants to be safer, use less breathing gas, and who wants to find more enjoyment in their diving.

BDub also teaches a similar class which can be found on his website. Both classes are WELL worth the money and time. You will come out of them a much better and stronger diver, no matter your skill level now.

[Sounder]

So what ARE your suggestions?

It's a secret.

[Scubak]

Make that three on the shirt...pretty cool!
But...

Sure, even the most non-silting divers have a rogue fin kick here and there, but it doesn't silt the place out... it's more of a quick localized "poof" followed by "ah crap, I stirred up the bottom" thought. Other divers, often with as many or even more dives, blow out the dive site without regard to anyone but themselves.

What do you do about the divers that you tell them and show them their silt storm and they just shrug like they don't give a
S%#t?
That is the million dollar question cuz I hate the silt!
K

[Jenbowes]

It's a secret.

[Sounder]

Double post

[Sounder]

Make that three on the shirt...pretty cool!
But...

Sure, even the most non-silting divers have a rogue fin kick here and there, but it doesn't silt the place out... it's more of a quick localized "poof" followed by "ah crap, I stirred up the bottom" thought. Other divers, often with as many or even more dives, blow out the dive site without regard to anyone but themselves.

What do you do about the divers that you tell them and show them their silt storm and they just shrug like they don't give a
S%#t?
That is the million dollar question cuz I hate the silt!
K

I have no idea... That IS the $$$ question. I think making it "cool" might help and getting more instructors to teach it (and do it themselves) would be great too. Start small, like with our little group, and then branch out from there. Encourage NWDC members who aren't quite there yet to check out the thread and the videos.

Wrecking the place is unacceptable, rude, selfish, decreases safety, increases separation potential, and demonstrates a lazy nature and utter disrespect and disregard for their peers in divers with more than 100 dives who should know better but who do it anyway.

It's also incredibly disrespectful to the critters who shouldn't have to breathe their mess any more than they should have to breathe with me throwing dirt into the air at their face for them to inhale above water.

:angry:

[ldevore]

Cofessions of a silt bomber.....

I swear, I never knew that it was bad to do. I just though that was part of the deal with diving. I had taken classes from a few local shops and had about 80 dives under my belt and no one had ever mentioned anything about silt, let alone, how not to silt the place up. Then I just happened to meet up with some very nice, very patient folks who helped show me the way. I'm not there yet, but at least I'm working on getting there.

So, yes to Education and Silty the seal!!!!

What about joining forces with some environmental group, say REEF check, and selling the shirts as a fund and awareness raiser??

How about speaking at local dive club meetings?

[airsix]

Do you have a pool nearby where you can snorkel in the warmer months? Snorkeling laps was (is) great for my frog and back kick.
Also, we'll get more diving in this summer when the river warms up. I'm on the lookout for some still water where you'll find practicing easier. By the way, your light is coming along nicely. After I polish up the reflector it's ready to go back together (I made the replacement parts this weekend and they turned out nice if I do say so myself).

-Ben

[gcbryan]

I actually wonder how big a problem this is? My feelings are a bit like Rjack in that it's hard to expect to go to Cove 2 during the day on the weekends and expect there to be no silt.

Even if everyone was silt free by the time they hit 50 dives Cove 2 would still be full of silt on the weekends. Most people who dive regularly don't silt. They have regular dive buddies and regular dive buddies are the ones to speak with them about it.

If you go up to someone you don't know in the parking lot and start to tell them how to dive without silting of course they are going to say they don't care. It's a face saving response and it's human nature.

Are there really that many divers who silt who dive regularly? I've had a few buddies who were photographers who weren't as silt free as they could have been while taking pictures but other than that I only see mass silt outs at Cove 2 and that's mainly due to newer divers trying to get experience I'm sure. It's just that there is a non-ending supply of newer divers there.

My suggestions is to quit doing the same dives over and over and you won't constantly run into silt outs. Even at Cove 2 if you don't make every dive a trip to the I-beams followed by a trip to the Honeybear you won't have this problem as often unless the harbor seals are out.

I see the silt trails at Cove 2 and my dive plan with my buddies before the dive usually starts with we will go where ever the hordes of divers aren't.

That works pretty well.

[Nwbrewer]

Loretta, I don't think he meant practicing with all your gear in the pool. You just need a mask, Snorkel and fins. I'd be pretty surprised if the public pool objected to you swimming laps in that gear, though some pools have weird rules about fins and snorkels.

[Sounder]

I actually wonder how big a problem this is? My feelings are a bit like Rjack in that it's hard to expect to go to Cove 2 during the day on the weekends and expect there to be no silt.

Even if everyone was silt free by the time they hit 50 dives Cove 2 would still be full of silt on the weekends. Most people who dive regularly don't silt. They have regular dive buddies and regular dive buddies are the ones to speak with them about it.

If you go up to someone you don't know in the parking lot and start to tell them how to dive without silting of course they are going to say they don't care. It's a face saving response and it's human nature.

Are there really that many divers who silt who dive regularly? I've had a few buddies who were photographers who weren't as silt free as they could have been while taking pictures but other than that I only see mass silt outs at Cove 2 and that's mainly due to newer divers trying to get experience I'm sure. It's just that there is a non-ending supply of newer divers there.

My suggestions is to quit doing the same dives over and over and you won't constantly run into silt outs. Even at Cove 2 if you don't make every dive a trip to the I-beams followed by a trip to the Honeybear you won't have this problem as often unless the harbor seals are out.

I see the silt trails at Cove 2 and my dive plan with my buddies before the dive usually starts with we will go where ever the hordes of divers aren't.

That works pretty well.

It's more than Cove 2 on a weekend. Yes, that's a given and it's due to students which is forgiven.

My problem is Cove 2 on a Tuesday during the day when my buddy and I are hanging out somewhere and get a fly-by from an atomic silt bomber who is just lazy and sloppy.

This isn't about students or classes, this is about divers who should know better and who have the experience to learn not to do it.

Saying someone who doesn't like silt should go somewhere else is inappropriate - why should I have to go somewhere else because someone is being disrespectful? Perhaps the rude, lazy, silt-bombing diver should go somewhere less popular so other people don't have to deal with the mess the inconsiderate silting divers cause. In other words, if you're going to wreck the place, go wreck it somewhere it doesn't have an effect on others... and yet then you're STILL faced with wrecking the place for the wildlife.

[BDub]

My problem is Cove 2 on a Tuesday during the day when my buddy and I are hanging out somewhere and get a fly-by from an atomic silt bomber who is just lazy and sloppy.

This isn't about students or classes, this is about divers who should know better and who have the experience to learn not to do it.

Saying someone who doesn't like silt should go somewhere else is inappropriate - why should I have to go somewhere else because someone is being disrespectful? Perhaps the rude, lazy, silt-bombing diver should go somewhere less popular so other people don't have to deal with the mess the inconsiderate silting divers cause. In other words, if you're going to wreck the place, go wreck it somewhere it doesn't have an effect on others... and yet then you're STILL faced with wrecking the place for the wildlife.

I think in some cases its laziness, or lack of emphasis, of course.

Keep in mind, however, students emulate their instructors. While it seems like everyone should know better, that's not the case. Many of these divers did all of their skills kneeling, with their fellow students and instructor kneeling. They simply may not know any better. Their entire ow class experience may have been following the light that the instructor or divemaster shines backwards so the students know where to swim through the silt. If that's all they've been exposed to, they don't know any better.

I've taught enough classes to see many many lightbulbs turn on when talking about buoyancy control, trim, kicks, etc to know that many of those divers, like Lauri said, thought silt was simply a part of diving.

Don't be too quick to put all the blame on the divers. Many are just doing what they were taught to do.

[Pez7378]

Seriously Doug.

Does the wildlife care if the visibility is 100' vs. 1' ? I don't think this should be a crusade against flutter kicking divers with no bouyancy control. I think it is an opportunity to show people that there is a better way. Calling them lazy, sloppy etc only causes them to stop listening to you at a time when you really want them to listen, and see that there is a better way. New divers, i.e. flutter kicking with little bouyancy control, and those divers who never learned a better way, will generally frequent the same sites. Easy, current free sites where there is stuff to see. If we don't want to dive the same site as these folks, we go to more advanced sites where they don't go. You wouldn't tell a novice diver to go dive DIW, because we non-silters are going to be doing drills in Cove 2 today. Geez. That's like telling them to dive EUP without a scooter.

[Norris]

With an order for 25 shirts or more, we can print them fairly cheaply. :angry:

I like the concept a lot - I've even got a design improvement suggestion.

I am in on these shirts, for the untrained eye these shirts would be head scratchers. The dive flag would at least let people know what it represents. After thinking about it, the shirt would have people ask. in which you could have the opportunity to advertize our great sport (pass time, life).

I would wear mine proudly on dives so that many are reminded "oh yeah I should stay off the bottom, or that bald dude may get mad. :angry: :angry:

[BDub]

Seriously Doug.

Does the wildlife care if the visibility is 100' vs. 1' ? I don't think this should be a crusade against flutter kicking divers with no bouyancy control.

I don't think this is about silt so much as it is about the flutter kicking diver who's fins always smack the bottom, wiping out little critter communities in the process. The bad buoyancy control is similar...dumping too much air and smacking down on the bottom.

That's like telling them to dive EUP without a scooter.

And we all know that's just plain dangerous :shootself:

[Tom Nic]

Calling them lazy, sloppy etc only causes them to stop listening to you at a time when you really want them to listen, and see that there is a better way.

[LCF]

I really think 99% of the silting is poor education. I know, when I learned to dive, I dove out of trim (sometimes very badly) and I didn't even flutter kick properly -- I just bicycled around.

The good news is that you don't even have to learn the frog kick to reduce silting substantially. Getting trimmed out in a horizontal position, and reducing the SIZE of your kick to a small, modified flutter (from the ankles) gets rid of the vast majority of the silting, and has a lovely positive side effect that you go slower and therefore see more things.

Maybe what we should do is organize a dive-in this spring, and publicize it (maybe even through the NW Dive News) to show people how it is possible to dive without silting. If you don't know it's possible (and even my instructors left a massive silt trail, so how was I to know?) then you have no motivation to change what you do.

In fact, an article for NWDN about propulsion techniques and silting might be something Rick wouldn't at all mind printing, and since I can't dive these days, I could take on writing one. Anybody got some good photographs of good trim, frog kicking and modified flutter?

[Tom Nic]

In fact, an article for NWDN about propulsion techniques and silting might be something Rick wouldn't at all mind printing, and since I can't dive these days, I could take on writing one. Anybody got some good photographs of good trim, frog kicking and modified flutter?

I like the idea.

I wonder if it would fly or if dive politics would kill it? Good luck Lynne - go for it!

[Nwbrewer]

In fact, an article for NWDN about propulsion techniques and silting might be something Rick wouldn't at all mind printing, and since I can't dive these days, I could take on writing one. Anybody got some good photographs of good trim, frog kicking and modified flutter?

I like the idea.

I wonder if it would fly or if dive politics would kill it? Good luck Lynne - go for it!

I like this idea. Maybe some certain 'above the fold famous' divers could be used as models for some good anti-silting kick pictures. Extend their 15 minutes to 20?

[Sounder]

I hate to admit ths, but Pez is right. I personally find the silt bombing quite annoying and disrespectful, but :angry: turns heads the wrong way. I like the idea of the article combined with a big buddy dive approach.

The wildlife liking the vis isn't really my concern. Brian hit on half of it - resting on and sometimes slamming into habitat isn't good. The other half is more about how our critter friends breathe - think about a GPO, a wolfeel, a rockfish, etc. They've got to push water over their gills to breathe. If that water has all sorts of "stuff" in it, they're inhaling that "stuff" and pushing it over their gills in their effort to breathe... and that can't feel good. Think about breathing in a dust storm or around construction on dirt in the summer - it's not comfortable. Sure, we can do it, but that "stuff" in the air is an irritant to us and I can't imagine "stuff" in the water feels any better.

I think this would be of VERY high importance for people who really enjoy and care for critters. I'm a "critter guy" - I love critters and just like I am very careful to keep my dive light out of their eyes, I also take great care to keep their "air" clean. I also think non-silting techniques would seem incredibly important to people who want to take pictures so they're minimizing the back-scatter they're dealing with.