Cockscomb ID help! + Rosylip Sculpin?

[Tubesnout23]

Recently I have been encountering a lot of Cockscombs during my dives and I am having a hell of a time to figuring out whether they are High Cockscombs or Slender C.

The most recent C I saw was at Redondo Beach last Sunday.

Which one of the two do you think is more likely to be: the H or S? If you have taken pictures of this fish at Redondo could you post one here?

Unfortunately I still don't have a camera so I could not take any pictures (I could have drawn a sketch on my slate though...I did not think about it, well next time!). It was small brownish in color with the typical crest on top of its head.It was hiding underneath a long metal pipe? near the small boat at 50fsw.

Have you ever seen a Rosylip Sculpin at Redondo? I saw this fish tucked inside a narrow tight cranny. I could not see its dorsal fin, It was unusually dark and it seemed to have a sculpin-like smooth head.

Thanks

Cheers

[whatevah]

Recently I have been encountering a lot of Cockscombs during my dives and I am having a hell of a time to figuring out whether they are High Cockscombs or Slender C.

The most recent C I saw was at Redondo Beach last Sunday.

Which one of the two do you think is more likely to be: the H or S? If you have taken pictures of this fish at Redondo could you post one here?

Unfortunately I still don't have a camera so I could not take any pictures (I could have drawn a sketch on my slate though...I did not think about it, well next time!). It was small brownish in color with the typical crest on top of its head.It was hiding underneath a long metal pipe? near the small boat at 50fsw.

I would say that a Slender Cockscomb is most likely what you're seeing. I see more Slenders than Highs by a factor of something like 20:1. I have seen a lot of Slender Cockscombs at Redondo, and a lot at Langley also. Having said that, the most recent High Cockscomb sighting I've made was at Redondo. The Slender Cockscombs are around about the same size as a Saddleback Gunnel and seem to have a more prominent "comb" on their heads - you can often make out striped markings on it too. When I find them they tend to be hiding in or under something and will poke their heads out to look around but they are quite shy and will retreat to their hiding spot. The High Cockscombs I've encountered (relatively few of them) tend to be out in the open, but they skitter away quite quickly and disappear - they hide in algae etc. High Cockscombs have pronounced dark bars radiating down and back from their eyes, and to my eye they seem to have more smooth, eel-like skin - sometimes a little baggy or bunched up looking. I suppose the best advice I can give you is that if you are seeing a lot of these fish and they all look very similar, they're probably Slender Cockscombs. When you see a High Cockscomb after seeing a bunch of Slender Cockscombs, it will strike you as quite different.

Have you ever seen a Rosylip Sculpin at Redondo? I saw this fish tucked inside a narrow tight cranny. I could not see its dorsal fin, It was unusually dark and it seemed to have a sculpin-like smooth head.

I don't dive Redondo very often, but I've never seen a Rosylip there. Also, the REEF data (over 700 surveys at Redondo) does not show any reports of Rosylips there. I've only ever seen Rosylip Sculpins out in the Strait of Juan de Fuca - places like Crescent Bay and Sekiu. This is not to say that you didn't see a Rosylip at Redondo, just that the likelihood is low. A smooth head... hmm - have you considered that it may have been a snailfish? Or a brotula? I'm curious now. Let us know if you get any closer to an identification on your mystery fish!

[Tubesnout23]

I don't dive Redondo very often, but I've never seen a Rosylip there. Also, the REEF data (over 700 surveys at Redondo) does not show any reports of Rosylips there. I've only ever seen Rosylip Sculpins out in the Strait of Juan de Fuca - places like Crescent Bay and Sekiu. This is not to say that you didn't see a Rosylip at Redondo, just that the likelihood is low. A smooth head... hmm - have you considered that it may have been a snailfish? Or a brotula? I'm curious now. Let us know if you get any closer to an identification on your mystery fish!

I am positive that it was not a snail fish or a brotula. It had the shape of a small sculpin and did not have cirri on top of its head and it was unusually dark. Unfortunately I could not see whether it had a pelvic fin or not. A Roselyp Sculpin does not have a pelvic fin.

Regarding the Cockscomb, according to Coastal Fishes of the Pacific Northwest (by Andy Lamb and Phil Edgell), the High Cockscomb is supposed to have a more pronounced crest on its head than the Slender one. Here is a picture by Jan of a Slender Cockscomb:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/slen ... bS.jpg?o=1

[whatevah]

I am positive that it was not a snail fish or a brotula. It had the shape of a small sculpin and did not have cirri on top of its head and it was unusually dark. Unfortunately I could not see whether it had a pelvic fin or not. A Roselyp Sculpin does not have a pelvic fin.

Tough to guess what it might have been - Smoothhead or Padded Sculpin perhaps, or maybe it was a Rosylip. I don't think you're going to get any kind of firm identification based on the description we have to work with though.

Regarding the Cockscomb, according to Coastal Fishes of the Pacific Northwest (by Andy Lamb and Phil Edgell), the High Cockscomb is supposed to have a more pronounced crest on its head than the Slender one. Here is a picture by Jan of a Slender Cockscomb:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/slen ... bS.jpg?o=1

Jan's photo subject looks like a tiny fish to me (based on scale of surrounding invertebrates) - entirely possible that the the "comb" varies with age, sex, and even individual variation. From my own observations, photos, and a couple of my books I would say that the comb on a Slender is more prominent - perhaps due to head shape more than anything else. Prominence is a pretty subjective measure obviously, and your mileage may vary.

[Tubesnout23]

Well now I am even more confused about the H and the S Cockscomb...

[coachrenz]

Well now I am even more confused about the H and the S Cockscomb...

Greg Jensen has mentioned several times that there is some discussion about whether High Cockscombs and Slender Cockscombs are actually the same species or not. Apparently, current thinking in the science world is that they are actually the same species, but, papers have not been published.

[Greg Jensen]

The debate is mostly in my head, which isn't reflective of the scientific world! The general thought is that high cockscombs are almost exclusively intertidal, and slenders are mostly subtidal.
The size of the crest does vary with age and sex, and it's supposed to be larger in highs than in slenders- extending to the back of the head, and higher in the snout region. And slenders are supposed to have bars on their comb and lower jaw. But I see every combination of these characters (and the eye bars) which makes me very suspicious of the separation- plus finding male/female pairs that seen individually would have been called by two different names. When it comes right down to it, the only "solid" character separating the two in the literature is the number of vertebrae, and only Clark Kent can pull that off in the field. Add to that the fact that the number of vertebrae in a fish can vary with the temperatures they experience as a larva, and you can probably understand why I'm suspicious.

ON the other hand, I only ever see the bright solid orange pricklebacks subtidally. In doing intertidal work over the years I've seen thousands of cockscombs, but never that color. The Vancouver Aquarium crossed an orange one with 'regular' high cockscombs which makes some people think they're highs, but polar and brown bears (or lions and tigers) do the same in captivity and no one considers them the same.
I keep trying to find a molecular biology-oriented student here to look at the problem, but so far no takers. And at this point I wouldn't bet any money either way on how it would come out.