Lobster in Puget sound?

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby Sounder » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:07 am

divergirl07 wrote:So has anyone seen this guy since labor day weekend?? No one I have spoken to has....

I think that lobster met some melted butter. :evil4:
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby divergirl07 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:48 am

So has anyone seen this guy since labor day weekend?? No one I have spoken to has....
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby dwashbur » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:56 pm

Pez7378 wrote:
GetWet wrote:Having watched this thread, I just want to post my support. There are so many examples of the damage non-native species do, I support eliminating them before they have a chance to wipe out the native species. Thanks. Melissa


I agree. Sorry folks. If you're from California, you'll have to go back home. :smt064


So I guess since I'm (currently) from Idaho, I'm okay, right????????
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby cardiver » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:53 pm

Damn, Pez. I really like living up here! :crybaby:
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby Pez7378 » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:51 pm

GetWet wrote:Having watched this thread, I just want to post my support. There are so many examples of the damage non-native species do, I support eliminating them before they have a chance to wipe out the native species. Thanks. Melissa


I agree. Sorry folks. If you're from California, you'll have to go back home. :smt064

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby GetWet » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:35 pm

Having watched this thread, I just want to post my support. There are so many examples of the damage non-native species do, I support eliminating them before they have a chance to wipe out the native species. Thanks. Melissa

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby spatman » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:39 pm

dwashbur wrote:Now I'm really done.


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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby airsix » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:38 pm

dwashbur wrote:...should restaurants really be keeping these critters in pens down in the water? When I first read that it struck me as a little careless, to say the least. And clearly it's not a foolproof system, since this guy probably pulled a Houdini on someone. How common a practice is this among waterfront restaurants? Is it something to be concerned about? Those are just some random thoughts, tumbling out however they choose.


Lobsters are small potatoes. Farm-raised Atlantic salmon sound like a bigger issue.

http://www.psmfc.org/ans_presentations/WaknitzW.pdf
http://wdfw.wa.gov/factshts/atlanticsalmon.htm


(Edited because first draft sounded smart alec and wasn't intended to be.)
Last edited by airsix on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby Sounder » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:34 pm

That lobster isn't long for this world. Nor are any other lobsters I find in Puget Sound. :axe:

I, too, am interested in the practice of keeping non-native critters in the water under the restaurant... that seems like a REALLY bad idea to me for all the reasons cited in this thread.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby dwashbur » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:26 pm

nwscubamom wrote:
dwashbur wrote: What I did, and do, object to, is extremism. I find things like the comparison of this lobster to cancer offensive. My brother is battling cancer right now. We've lost other loved ones to it. Comparing one little lobster to something like that is both extreme and inflammatory. That's specifically what I was addressing.


Well, to each their own, Dave. I don't find Doug's comparison of this situation to cancer offensive in the least. (And I too, watched my mom die a horrible death to cancer - as well as have close friends who've battled cancer - some won, some lost.) Cancer doesn't just appear instantly as a gigantic tumor spread all over the body - it starts SMALL and grows big, and expands to other areas, strangling out good things (cells) in the process. That's the point. It's actually a pretty good comparison, IMO.


I know how cancer works, and I know what it does to people. As I said, my brother is facing it right now and it scares the hell out of me. I also know what it does to those who look after the people who are dying of it, because I'm married to one. I've watched the toll it takes on her as a caregiver. I've watched her stand by her own mother's bedside and tend to her as a professional, seeing to her needs, monitoring her condition, right down to dutifully documenting her mother's last heartbeat. It was the most courageous thing I've ever witnessed, and you don't want to know what it took for us to recover from it. If you can put those kinds of things aside and appreciate the analogy, obviously you're entitled to that opinion. I found it inflammatory, and just as obviously, it made me a little...crazy.

nwscubamom wrote:And after having dealt with the invasive tunicates for the past few years, I know that just ONE can start something that easily can become very similar to cancer. Talk to anyone who deals with non-native-turned-invasive species, or just do your research - history and science will show you how it works. We *KNOW* one non-native species can wreak havoc on entire ecosystems. It's not guesswork - it's fact and has been proven time and time again.


I know all that, and you know that I know all that. I've helped you with the tunicates before and stand ready to do so again as needed.

nwscubamom wrote:Call it extremism, or reaction management or whatever term you want - I don't care - but my own past experience with this sort of thing, and scientific data aren't something I'd be too eager to argue against.


Once again, let me reiterate that I changed sides and agreed on the lobster's removal. I don't know how many times I need to say that. I acknowledged it after the info from the WDFW was posted, because pathogens and disease were aspects of this thing that I hadn't considered. But in calling for more study, I was simply suggesting that we do the sort of thing we learn in Rescue Diver class: stop, think, THEN act. I see the possibility that there's a qualitative difference between this creature and the tunicates we're fighting. ISTM there's an opportunity to gain some scientific data here, whether by observing it at Redondo, or catching it and setting it up in a tank in a controlled environment to see if, for example, a GPO will eat it, study it and see if it really does carry harmful pathogens, that sort of thing. Nevertheless, in the interest of peace with my friends, I also stand ready to help eat it. Who's gonna do the cooking? I nominate anybody but me because they're much more likely to know what they're doing.

Another question that comes to my mind: if part of the concern is non-native pathogens and/or bacteria that native species don't have a defense against, it's reasonable to assume that at least some of those are likely water-borne. In that case, should restaurants really be keeping these critters in pens down in the water? When I first read that it struck me as a little careless, to say the least. And clearly it's not a foolproof system, since this guy probably pulled a Houdini on someone. How common a practice is this among waterfront restaurants? Is it something to be concerned about? Those are just some random thoughts, tumbling out however they choose.

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby dwashbur » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:56 pm

OreCoastDiver wrote:Get that badboy outta there! I can't believe someone hasn't taken care of him. Ya, he's a lot more fun to look at than an invasive tunicate, but he still doesn't belong in Puget Sound. If there's one, there's most likely more and nature will find a way to get them together.

Maybe we should have a NWDC pledge that when we see a clearly invasive species when we are diving we terminate it with extreme prejudice.


With Ciona savignyi at least, ou don't wanna do that. There are specific ways it needs to be removed, because if it's done wrong it's a bit like blowing on a white dandelion. Janna and several others have special training in removing them, so if you see one of those at least* report it to them with as detailed a location as you can define.

*If you see one, it's likely you'll see more than one. That's part of the problem...
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby OreCoastDiver » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:54 am

Get that badboy outta there! I can't believe someone hasn't taken care of him. Ya, he's a lot more fun to look at than an invasive tunicate, but he still doesn't belong in Puget Sound. If there's one, there's most likely more and nature will find a way to get them together.

Maybe we should have a NWDC pledge that when we see a clearly invasive species when we are diving we terminate it with extreme prejudice.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby nwscubamom » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:26 am

dwashbur wrote: What I did, and do, object to, is extremism. I find things like the comparison of this lobster to cancer offensive. My brother is battling cancer right now. We've lost other loved ones to it. Comparing one little lobster to something like that is both extreme and inflammatory. That's specifically what I was addressing.


Well, to each their own, Dave. I don't find Doug's comparison of this situation to cancer offensive in the least. (And I too, watched my mom die a horrible death to cancer - as well as have close friends who've battled cancer - some won, some lost.) Cancer doesn't just appear instantly as a gigantic tumor spread all over the body - it starts SMALL and grows big, and expands to other areas, strangling out good things (cells) in the process. That's the point. It's actually a pretty good comparison, IMO.

And after having dealt with the invasive tunicates for the past few years, I know that just ONE can start something that easily can become very similar to cancer. Talk to anyone who deals with non-native-turned-invasive species, or just do your research - history and science will show you how it works. We *KNOW* one non-native species can wreak havoc on entire ecosystems. It's not guesswork - it's fact and has been proven time and time again.

Call it extremism, or reaction management or whatever term you want - I don't care - but my own past experience with this sort of thing, and scientific data aren't something I'd be too eager to argue against.

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby Pez7378 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:07 am

Well, I'm glad that's over with. Now, can we please find something else to argue about? Who wants to be right, and who wants to be wrong? Personally, I think Coors Light is Less filling! :occasion5:

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby spatman » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:52 am

dwashbur wrote:It's one fricking animal, for cryin' out loud.


mary mallon was just one fricking person, for cryin' out loud. extreme example, i know, but you get the point.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby dwashbur » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:30 am

I know I said I was done, but since some people seem to have completely missed my actual point, I'll spell it out. I already agreed that yes, it probably needs to be removed. I even offered to help eat it. What I did, and do, object to, is extremism. I find things like the comparison of this lobster to cancer offensive. My brother is battling cancer right now. We've lost other loved ones to it. Comparing one little lobster to something like that is both extreme and inflammatory. That's specifically what I was addressing. After the WDFW person weighed in, I said "Okay, remove it." Funny how nobody seems to have noticed that, even though I said it several times. The WDFW person did support the idea that it should be removed, but most certainly did NOT support any comparison with burglary, or something as insidious as cancer.

I still find the comparison offensive. Do with that what you will. Now I'm really done.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby Nwbrewer » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:54 am

dwashbur wrote:
Sounder wrote:
nwscubamom wrote:I just spoke with one of the Aquatic Nuisance Species coordinators I know at WDFW and she says this:

"The lobster could be from a restaurant. Some restaurants on the waterfront have put in small net pens and actually are storing their shellfish in them. There are many reasons why it is wrong to introduce non-native species into state waters. Aside from the issue of potential invasiveness, there are viruses and pathogens that native species here have no protection against. For Maine lobster to have a nitch in Puget Sound means that something else either gets eaten or out-competed for food and habitat.

She went on to say that it needs to be removed - and I wholeheartedly agree! Perhaps NWDC can make a party out of it? :)

- Janna :)


This is what I've been defending the whole time - glad to see yet another person confirming my stance.

Bottom line, it doesn't belong here and needs to be removed, immediately.

Kind of like cancer - at first sign, you attack it. You don't wait & see what'll happen. You don't wonder if it might just be a neat new organ your body is the first to produce that might cure human suffering.

Or what about a home invasion? Shouldn't I wait to be sure they're bad before I call the police? I mean, what if they're here to bring me gifts and make me a sandwich? What if they might be really neat people I should get to know? Yeah, I should really invite them in, offer a high-five, and see whether there is really a problem with them being there or not.

Both of these examples apply to the topic. It is a cancer which is invading our home... maybe you're willing to let it go in case it might be good, but I'm taking it down in a whirlwind chemo and gunfire.

I don't care how it got here, I know it doesn't belong, and I know it needs to be removed.



*sigh* Let's get real for a moment, shall we? This person is not confirming your "stance" that it is the underwater equivalent of "Mars Attacks." It's not fricking cancer, and it's not a fricking home invader come to rape your daughter. Both examples are ludicrous in the extreme. We KNOW cancer is bad, duh, it kills people. We KNOW home invasion is bad, duh, it kills people and/or robs them of property. We KNOW precisely dick about this one fricking lobster. It's one fricking animal, for cryin' out loud. Now, if the powers that be conclude it needs to be removed, fine. But empty extremist rhetoric like this doesn't further the cause.

I'm going to be moving over the next couple of days so this will be my last comment on the subject.


Ok, Dave, yes let's look at the situation shall we? Sounder's stance was simply that it should be removed, due to the fact that the odds suggest that it will have a negative effect on our local ecosystem. We can never be 100% sure of anything. Everything is a gamble, you have to play the odds. In this case we can look at past history for non-native species being introduced into new ecosystems, and in MOST instances this has a negative impact on some aspect of the ecosystem. How many times have we seen sportfish introduced to lakes that were at one time teaming with fish, only to have them become virtual wastlands due either to preditation or competion for food? Look at plantlife, plenty of examples there as well. In the seattle area, how many of the native brown squirells do you see? Virtually none, because the grey's are larger and more effecient breeders.

Since in all reasonable probability (outside of your "random current swept him here and he walked the rest of the way into the sound theory") the animal was introduced to the sound by HUMANS, we humans have a duty to protect the native species in the sound and remove the THREAT that this animal may cause a shift in the balance of the already precarious ecosystem in the puget sound.

Not sure why you seem to feel the need to take up the cause of this one animal when millions are taken and eaten (with tasty butter) on the east coast each year, but seriously, it's time to layoff it and stop arguing for the sake of trying to be right and admit defeat. The experts have weighed in, and since the ODDS suggest that the thing is a threat the most conservative course of action is to remove it. And spare me the "well we don't know" BS. Nothing in life is certain, in this case I prefer to bet with the house.

I'm done with this thread.

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby dwashbur » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:30 pm

Sounder wrote:
nwscubamom wrote:I just spoke with one of the Aquatic Nuisance Species coordinators I know at WDFW and she says this:

"The lobster could be from a restaurant. Some restaurants on the waterfront have put in small net pens and actually are storing their shellfish in them. There are many reasons why it is wrong to introduce non-native species into state waters. Aside from the issue of potential invasiveness, there are viruses and pathogens that native species here have no protection against. For Maine lobster to have a nitch in Puget Sound means that something else either gets eaten or out-competed for food and habitat.

She went on to say that it needs to be removed - and I wholeheartedly agree! Perhaps NWDC can make a party out of it? :)

- Janna :)


This is what I've been defending the whole time - glad to see yet another person confirming my stance.

Bottom line, it doesn't belong here and needs to be removed, immediately.

Kind of like cancer - at first sign, you attack it. You don't wait & see what'll happen. You don't wonder if it might just be a neat new organ your body is the first to produce that might cure human suffering.

Or what about a home invasion? Shouldn't I wait to be sure they're bad before I call the police? I mean, what if they're here to bring me gifts and make me a sandwich? What if they might be really neat people I should get to know? Yeah, I should really invite them in, offer a high-five, and see whether there is really a problem with them being there or not.

Both of these examples apply to the topic. It is a cancer which is invading our home... maybe you're willing to let it go in case it might be good, but I'm taking it down in a whirlwind chemo and gunfire.

I don't care how it got here, I know it doesn't belong, and I know it needs to be removed.



*sigh* Let's get real for a moment, shall we? This person is not confirming your "stance" that it is the underwater equivalent of "Mars Attacks." It's not fricking cancer, and it's not a fricking home invader come to rape your daughter. Both examples are ludicrous in the extreme. We KNOW cancer is bad, duh, it kills people. We KNOW home invasion is bad, duh, it kills people and/or robs them of property. We KNOW precisely dick about this one fricking lobster. It's one fricking animal, for cryin' out loud. Now, if the powers that be conclude it needs to be removed, fine. But empty extremist rhetoric like this doesn't further the cause.

I'm going to be moving over the next couple of days so this will be my last comment on the subject.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby Sounder » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:46 pm

rjarnold wrote:
nwscubamom wrote:I just spoke with one of the Aquatic Nuisance Species coordinators I know at WDFW and she says this:

"The lobster could be from a restaurant. Some restaurants on the waterfront have put in small net pens and actually are storing their shellfish in them. There are many reasons why it is wrong to introduce non-native species into state waters. Aside from the issue of potential invasiveness, there are viruses and pathogens that native species here have no protection against. For Maine lobster to have a nitch in Puget Sound means that something else either gets eaten or out-competed for food and habitat.

She went on to say that it needs to be removed - and I wholeheartedly agree! Perhaps NWDC can make a party out of it? :)

- Janna :)


Hey Janna -

Do the restaurants have permits to store their lobsters out there, because that just doesn't seem legit...?

...wait, if they don't, and the lobster can legally be collected... could you go 'help yourself'? hehe.

Might've solved the problem with not being able to feed the entire group!


This is an EXCELLENT point Rachael. \:D/
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby rjarnold » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:42 pm

nwscubamom wrote:I just spoke with one of the Aquatic Nuisance Species coordinators I know at WDFW and she says this:

"The lobster could be from a restaurant. Some restaurants on the waterfront have put in small net pens and actually are storing their shellfish in them. There are many reasons why it is wrong to introduce non-native species into state waters. Aside from the issue of potential invasiveness, there are viruses and pathogens that native species here have no protection against. For Maine lobster to have a nitch in Puget Sound means that something else either gets eaten or out-competed for food and habitat.

She went on to say that it needs to be removed - and I wholeheartedly agree! Perhaps NWDC can make a party out of it? :)

- Janna :)


Hey Janna -

Do the restaurants have permits to store their lobsters out there, because that just doesn't seem legit...?

...wait, if they don't, and the lobster can legally be collected... could you go 'help yourself'? hehe.

Might've solved the problem with not being able to feed the entire group!
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby Sounder » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:36 pm

nwscubamom wrote:I just spoke with one of the Aquatic Nuisance Species coordinators I know at WDFW and she says this:

"The lobster could be from a restaurant. Some restaurants on the waterfront have put in small net pens and actually are storing their shellfish in them. There are many reasons why it is wrong to introduce non-native species into state waters. Aside from the issue of potential invasiveness, there are viruses and pathogens that native species here have no protection against. For Maine lobster to have a nitch in Puget Sound means that something else either gets eaten or out-competed for food and habitat.

She went on to say that it needs to be removed - and I wholeheartedly agree! Perhaps NWDC can make a party out of it? :)

- Janna :)


This is what I've been defending the whole time - glad to see yet another person confirming my stance.

Bottom line, it doesn't belong here and needs to be removed, immediately.

Kind of like cancer - at first sign, you attack it. You don't wait & see what'll happen. You don't wonder if it might just be a neat new organ your body is the first to produce that might cure human suffering.

Or what about a home invasion? Shouldn't I wait to be sure they're bad before I call the police? I mean, what if they're here to bring me gifts and make me a sandwich? What if they might be really neat people I should get to know? Yeah, I should really invite them in, offer a high-five, and see whether there is really a problem with them being there or not.

Both of these examples apply to the topic. It is a cancer which is invading our home... maybe you're willing to let it go in case it might be good, but I'm taking it down in a whirlwind chemo and gunfire.

I don't care how it got here, I know it doesn't belong, and I know it needs to be removed.
Last edited by Sounder on Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby dwashbur » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:23 pm

rjarnold wrote:
nwscubamom wrote:I just spoke with one of the Aquatic Nuisance Species coordinators I know at WDFW and she says this:

"The lobster could be from a restaurant. Some restaurants on the waterfront have put in small net pens and actually are storing their shellfish in them. There are many reasons why it is wrong to introduce non-native species into state waters. Aside from the issue of potential invasiveness, there are viruses and pathogens that native species here have no protection against. For Maine lobster to have a nitch in Puget Sound means that something else either gets eaten or out-competed for food and habitat.

She went on to say that it needs to be removed - and I wholeheartedly agree! Perhaps NWDC can make a party out of it? :)

- Janna :)


I'm in!


Me too, though one lobster ain't gonna make much of a meal for the whole bunch of us!
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby rjarnold » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:05 pm

nwscubamom wrote:I just spoke with one of the Aquatic Nuisance Species coordinators I know at WDFW and she says this:

"The lobster could be from a restaurant. Some restaurants on the waterfront have put in small net pens and actually are storing their shellfish in them. There are many reasons why it is wrong to introduce non-native species into state waters. Aside from the issue of potential invasiveness, there are viruses and pathogens that native species here have no protection against. For Maine lobster to have a nitch in Puget Sound means that something else either gets eaten or out-competed for food and habitat.

She went on to say that it needs to be removed - and I wholeheartedly agree! Perhaps NWDC can make a party out of it? :)

- Janna :)


I'm in!
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby nwscubamom » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:53 am

I just spoke with one of the Aquatic Nuisance Species coordinators I know at WDFW and she says this:

"The lobster could be from a restaurant. Some restaurants on the waterfront have put in small net pens and actually are storing their shellfish in them. There are many reasons why it is wrong to introduce non-native species into state waters. Aside from the issue of potential invasiveness, there are viruses and pathogens that native species here have no protection against. For Maine lobster to have a nitch in Puget Sound means that something else either gets eaten or out-competed for food and habitat.

She went on to say that it needs to be removed - and I wholeheartedly agree! Perhaps NWDC can make a party out of it? :)

- Janna :)
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Postby dwashbur » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:36 am

Janna,
Thanks for weighing in on this. I want to address a couple of things you said, but I'll be doing them somewhat out of order. I want to start with this:

nwscubamom wrote:It is highly likely that the lobster was introduced by a human. It's one thing when a species in an adjacent range (like Dave's daughter found) is found in an extended range - but to find something native to another coast, for pete's sake, is kind of a no-brainer. #-o


Truth be told, I tend to agree with you. I confess I was jerking some chains a little bit with that line of reasoning, but I think the point stands: we really don't know. For all we know, it got caught in some freak current that dragged it under the polar ice cap and left it by Admiralty Inlet, and it walked from there. Unlikely, I agree. It's much more likely that some well-meaning animal-rights yo-yo took it out of a tank and tossed it into the water with the cry "Be free, little one! Be freeeeeeeeee!" (Fans of "Pinky and the Brain" will get that one.) But the bottom line is, we just don't know.

nwscubamom wrote:When a species that doesn't belong, is sighted in an area, it is considered 'non-native'. Once it starts taking over (or has a reputation for taking over in other areas) then it's considered 'invasive'. Ciona savignyi, Didemnum, and Styela clava (the three invasive tunicate species everyone's been in a dither about) DOES have natural predators in its regular environment - the danger is when it takes up residence in a non-native environment.


Thank you for spelling this out. I have been arguing all along that it's premature to call one lobster "invasive." I have no problem with removal of a truly invasive species such as Ciona savignyi, I believe I've proven that already. But this is a whole different kettle of fish (pun intended, though probably not fully executed).

nwscubamom wrote:BTW, you don't KNOW that our octopus would eat the lobster and keep it in check. Just like you've been saying - you would think it might, but you just don't KNOW. Man has long thought he could predict which species would keep others in check, and have wound up making a VERY big mess of things. (ie: Cane Toad predicament in Australia). [-X


Granted. But we can play the probabilities. Do octopi eat them on the east coast where they're native? We know our GPO's eat crustaceans, because one of the ways to find a den is to look for empty crab shells and such. I suspect that, when it comes right down to it, a crustacean is a crustacean is a crustacean to them, which is to say, food is food is food. But I agree we don't know for sure. The odds are there, but just like how it got into the Sound, we don't have solid proof.

nwscubamom wrote:The problem with 'non-native' species is that they're unpredictable. Some will exist happily for decades until something in the environment changes, then they go bonkers and all out of whack with disastrous consequences. That's why the 'wait-and-see' approach is NOT WISE. Because by the time you figure out the population is going all crazy, it's too late. So an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure when it comes to non-native/invasive species.


Again, granted. Having said that, a potentially commercial species such as lobster is quite a different thing than a useless resource-gobbler like Ciona.

A long time ago, I coined a term for what I see going on here: "reaction management." It means managing a situation, whether a business, or a family, or an ecosystem, or a government, or whatever, by simply reacting to what happens, hoping for a short-term solution to a perceived instead of examining the overall situation and coming up with a coherent plan that operates from real knowledge, and not just from transitory forces. It includes "knee-jerk" reactions, but is more broad in scope. Basically, it's an approach where the circumstances control you and you find yourself constantly looking around instead of also looking ahead.

That's what I see going on here. We've encountered ONE animal. That's all, one. Reaction management says "it could be bad, kill it!" Reasoned management says "Find out what's going on, then figure out what to do." I'm opposed to reaction management in all its forms in every walk of life. That's why I'm taking such a hard stance on this, because I've seen too much damage done with that approach. Isn't it better to work from real knowledge? That's something we don't have at this point, and I suggest that getting some before going off and doing something irreversible would be a Very Good Thing (TM).
Dave

"Clearly, you weren't listening to what I'm about to say."
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