Lobster in Puget sound?

Fish & Invertebrate sightings and descriptions, hosted by resident NWDC ID expert Janna Nichols (nwscubamom).
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Sounder » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:08 am

Pez7378 wrote:The other day we saw a Lobster in a place it shouldn't have been. Last night I saw a nice T-bone steak over in the chicken section. I HAD to eradicate it. Three words,

Surf and Turf \:D/


Uuurp!! I LOVE surf & turf!! \:D/
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by dwashbur » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:29 am

Sounder wrote:
Pez7378 wrote:The other day we saw a Lobster in a place it shouldn't have been. Last night I saw a nice T-bone steak over in the chicken section. I HAD to eradicate it. Three words,

Surf and Turf \:D/


Uuurp!! I LOVE surf & turf!! \:D/


We definitely agree on that \:D/
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by dphershman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:45 pm

I think I'm sorry for having oringally posted this. Find something out of the ordinary and some folks want to go kill it. My two cents.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by spatman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:50 pm

well, at least some of them want to eat it, too.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Pez7378 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:01 pm

dphershman wrote:I think I'm sorry for having oringally posted this. Find something out of the ordinary and some folks want to go kill it. My two cents.


Okay, I'll come clean. I have no intention of hunting the Lobster. I was as excited to see it there as the next person and I hope it's around for others to see and photograph as well. I did consider the impact of announcing to everyone that it was there, and considered mentioning it to our crew that it might have a negative impact but the same could be true for Octo sightings and everything else.

Either way, if you didn't mention it, I'm sure one of us would have. I was just :smt064

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by nwscubamom » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:04 pm

Hey guys, been out on vacation.

What an interesting find!!! Lots of talk about eating it, for sure (personally, I find Dungeness Crab WAY more tasty than lobster...), but I wanted to share a few thoughts from my perspective:

When a species that doesn't belong, is sighted in an area, it is considered 'non-native'. Once it starts taking over (or has a reputation for taking over in other areas) then it's considered 'invasive'. Ciona savignyi, Didemnum, and Styela clava (the three invasive tunicate species everyone's been in a dither about) DOES have natural predators in its regular environment - the danger is when it takes up residence in a non-native environment.

BTW, you don't KNOW that our octopus would eat the lobster and keep it in check. Just like you've been saying - you would think it might, but you just don't KNOW. Man has long thought he could predict which species would keep others in check, and have wound up making a VERY big mess of things. (ie: Cane Toad predicament in Australia). [-X

It is highly likely that the lobster was introduced by a human. It's one thing when a species in an adjacent range (like Dave's daughter found) is found in an extended range - but to find something native to another coast, for pete's sake, is kind of a no-brainer. #-o

The problem with 'non-native' species is that they're unpredictable. Some will exist happily for decades until something in the environment changes, then they go bonkers and all out of whack with disastrous consequences. That's why the 'wait-and-see' approach is NOT WISE. Because by the time you figure out the population is going all crazy, it's too late. So an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure when it comes to non-native/invasive species.

BTW, my understanding of the Lionfish issue is NOT hurricane related - rather it was caused by human release from an aquarium. I believe (could be wrong) that Dr. Brice Semmens of REEF did research and wrote something up about it with colleagues at the University of Washington. :book:

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Jan K » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:42 pm

Venomous lionfish prowls fragile Caribbean waters
August 13, 2008 - 9:21pm

By DAVID McFADDEN
Associated Press Writer

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) - A maroon-striped marauder with venomous spikes is rapidly multiplying in the Caribbean's warm waters, swallowing native species, stinging divers and generally wreaking havoc on an ecologically delicate region.

The red lionfish, a tropical native of the Indian and Pacific oceans that probably escaped from a Florida fish tank, is showing up everywhere _ from the coasts of Cuba and Hispaniola to Little Cayman's pristine Bloody Bay Wall, one of the region's prime destinations for divers.

Wherever it appears, the adaptable predator corners fish and crustaceans up to half its size with its billowy fins and sucks them down in one violent gulp.

Research teams observed one lionfish eating 20 small fish in less than 30 minutes.

"This may very well become the most devastating marine invasion in history," said Mark Hixon, an Oregon State University marine ecology expert who compared lionfish to a plague of locusts. "There is probably no way to stop the invasion completely."

A white creature with maroon stripes, the red lionfish has the face of an alien and the ribbony look of something that survived a paper shredder _ with poisonous spikes along its spine to ward off enemies.

The invasion is similar to that of other aquarium escapees such as walking catfish and caulerpa, a fast-growing form of algae known as "killer seaweed" for its ability to crowd out native plants. The catfish are now common in South Florida, where they threaten smaller fish in wetlands and fish farms.

In Africa, the Nile Perch rendered more than 200 fish species extinct when it was introduced into Lake Victoria. The World Conservation Union calls it one of the 100 worst alien species invasions.

"Those kinds of things happen repeatedly in fresh water," Hixon said. "But we've not seen such a large predatory invasion in the ocean before."

The lionfish so far has been concentrated in the Bahamas, where marine biologists are seeing it in every habitat: in shallow and deep reefs, off piers and beaches, and perhaps most worrisome, in mangrove thickets that are vital habitats for baby fish.

Some spots in the Bahamian archipelago between New Providence and the Berry Islands are reporting a tenfold increase in lionfish just during the last year.

Northern Caribbean islands have sounded the alarm, encouraging fishermen to capture lionfish and divers to report them for eradication.

The invasion would be "devastating" to fisheries and recreational diving if it reached Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands, according to Eugenio Pineiro-Soler of the Caribbean Fishery Management Council.

"I think at the best they will have a huge impact on reef fish, and at the worst will result in the disappearance of most reef fish," said Bruce Purdy, a veteran dive operator who has helped the marine conservation group REEF with expeditions tracking the invasion.

Purdy said he has been stung several times while rounding up lionfish _ once badly.

"It was so painful, it made me want to cut my own hand off," he said.

Researchers believe lionfish were introduced into the Atlantic in 1992, when Hurricane Andrew shattered a private aquarium and six of them spilled into Miami's Biscayne Bay, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Biologists think the fish released floating sacs of eggs that rode the Gulf Stream north along the U.S. coast, leading to colonization of deep reefs off North Carolina and Bermuda. Lionfish have even been spotted as far north as Rhode Island in summer months, NOAA said.

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Leslie » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:48 pm

The first earliest report of lionfish release is when Hurricane Andrew in 1992 destroyed a sea-side aquarium in Florida. 6 lionfish were in the tank and some were seen soon afterwards in the wild. Other sightings are thought to be the result of people releasing their pets once they're too big for the tanks without any thought of the consequences.

An important thing to remember is that every region's species has adapted to a particular community of bacteria, microbes, and pathogens. If they're transplanted by whatever means they carry these communities with them. The situation is analogous to the first europeans who were resistant to small pox/measles, etc., infecting native Americans who had no immunity & were highly susceptible. Would it happen in the marine environment? It could. In the Caribbean longspine urchins were decimated by a pathogen introduced in the 80s. The urchins are the principal control of algae on reefs which meant that after a nearly 100% die off many reefs were smothered under massive algae growth. Large areas have yet to show signs of recovery.

Janna beat me to the punch in explaining some of the buzz words associated with non-natives. Non-native, non-indigeous species, introduced species, invasive species, etc. A single lobster does not constitute an invasive species but enough of them reproducing to plague proportions & causing a serious impact does. She's absolutely right - it's much better to remove an individual if there's the slightest chance it could cause future problems.

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by dwashbur » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:02 pm

Thanks to Jan and Leslie for the info about the origins of the lionfish situation. I had understood that part of a local population somewhere had been swept up the coast by the hurricane. I stand corrected.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Pez7378 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:03 pm

Questions. Wikipedia says that Codfish are natural Predators of the American Lobster. Would our Lings here eat one, or even know what to do with it? And apparently some Lobsters carry a disease "Paramoebiasis" that also causes Ameobic Gill Disease in farmed Atlantic Salmon. Would it affect our fish here too? How much would that suck if the answer was yes.

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Jan K » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:15 pm

Sorry Pez, Ling is not really a cod :pale:

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Sounder » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:33 pm

Jan K wrote:Sorry Pez, Ling is not really a cod :pale:


Jan's correct - while I believe we DO have true "cod" around the PNW, the Lingcod is a a member of the "GreenLING" family.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Sounder » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:40 pm

Janna, Leslie, and Jan, =D> :notworthy:

Thank you for weighing in on this and taking the time to explain the situation in such great detail. The more educated divers we have, the better the chances of catching any new non-native/invasive/whatever species early.

Thank you as well to all the REEF AAT members for the battle you continue to fight against the invasive tunicates we're plagued with currently.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Pez7378 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:42 pm

Jan K wrote:Sorry Pez, Ling is not really a cod


Oh great! And I suppose that now you're going to tell me that the Wolfeel isn't really an Eel?!?! :dontknow:














Hehehe :evil4: Thanks Jan, I did not know that.

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Fishstiq » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:21 pm

Next thing you know, people are gonna be running around here saying Red Hook isn't really red, and that Alaskan Amber is a non-native species... Where does this madness end?!?!!
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Jan K » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:26 pm

Fishstiq wrote:Next thing you know, people are gonna be running around here saying Red Hook isn't really red, and that Alaskan Amber is a non-native species... Where does this madness end?!?!!


As a member of the REEF eradication team I request that you to ship all the Alaskan Amber in your possession to my home so I can dispose of it properly.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Pez7378 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:42 pm

Man in suit walks out of the shadows-

"Dphershman simply wanted to share a new discovery with his friends.....What he didn't know......what he couldn't know.....was the many twist and turns his life would take within the next few hours. Let's see what happens as their talk turns from eating, to Killing, to ignoring a problem so threatening that no one could possibly know what the outcome would be...... "

"......and following the natural progression of topics here at NWDC, the discussion inexplicably turns to Beer............."


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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Fishstiq » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:47 pm

Jan K wrote:
Fishstiq wrote:Next thing you know, people are gonna be running around here saying Red Hook isn't really red, and that Alaskan Amber is a non-native species... Where does this madness end?!?!!


As a member of the REEF eradication team I request that you to ship all the Alaskan Amber in your possession to my home so I can dispose of it properly.
:occasion5:



Sorry, no-can-do. Shipping costs have gone through the roof since the cost of diesel has gotten so high. Looks like we'll have to meet somewhere for the hand-off. Might I suggest a local dive site? Perhaps other divers from the club would care to join and bring any species they think are "invasive" for identification and sampling by the team....
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Nwbrewer » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:07 pm

Hmmm..... Fishstiq presents an interesting idea... Perhaps I could be persuaded to bring some native NWbrewer brew, to contrast with the invasive species, thereby making it easier to identify the invaders.

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by spatman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:15 pm

i can most certainly transport "non-native" Oregon beers into WA, if should such a need arise.
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Penopolypants » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:36 pm

I'm willing to donate my time and tastebuds to help eradicate invasive beers! I've heard some of them are pretty tough to get rid of, but I will keep at it until they're gone! :salute:

Penelope's been at work all day on a holiday playing catchup, she's grumpy and is in need of delicious beer. Mmm...beer....
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by dwashbur » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:34 pm

I'm not a beer person *ducks* but I can bring some non-native vodka from Idaho (potato-based, of course) and add it to the species mix...
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by BASSMAN » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:59 pm

cardiver wrote:You weren't narced.......Bassman might have been though!

download/file.php?id=569&mode=view

Fishtank + Lobster + Restaurant = maybe some one rescued it from the Restaurant! :evil4:

I wanted to see a picture of the Lobster. Not my noggin in the Fishtank!
I was wondering when that picture was going to pop up #-o :smt035
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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by Sea of Green » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:49 am

60south wrote:Two words: Invasive Species.


(Sorry to be a killjoy.)


I was thinking the same thing. The last thing we need is more non-native species in the Sound, unless of course it eats invasive tunicates...

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Re: Lobster in Puget sound?

Post by rjarnold » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:12 am

Yum.

Who wants to dive Redondo asap? =D
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