Where to start?

[Pez7378]

So, for those of you who have gone before, IF I or anyone else here, were beginning to think that they may want to learn CCR diving, where would they start? Everything should be considered. I have only been diving regularly for just over a year. (maybe 150-200 dives?) I have only four dives in double cylinders, with no formal training....YET, I have not taken intro to tech, tech, adv Nitrox, deco etc, ....YET, I am not sure I am prepared to spend the $$ for a RB... YET (but I may have the means), How would I know, or what would I consider when deciding what RB system is right for me and the type of diving I am doing? Is it beneficial to do all this technical training on OC before switching over to CC, or would I benefit (read SAVE $$) from just making the jump, purchasing the gear, and training for the long haul? What about travelling overseas with a CCR?

For the Record, although I am a technological dunce, I used to be afraid of RB technology and had zero interest in going that route. Now, I'm intrigued, and think it makes financial sense for the kind of diving I WANT to do. This is just a toe in the water to see how it feels, I'm curious as to the responses I will get from some of you that have been using these things, and hopefully from some of you that have used more than one unit. Are you using your RB for run of the mill recreational dives? And how many of you still dive OC recreationally, and RB when it's needed for more techinical applications?

[John Rawlings]

Once I was certified on my CCR I went back and forth for a while between using it and diving open circuit. Now I'm using my CCR on every dive no matter what the purpose or depth and have been slowly but surely selling off all of my OC equipment. I enjoy the greatly extended bottom time, the warming characteristics from breathing warm, moist gas, and the greatly enhanced decompression profiles that I get with a CCR even on "recreational" dives. I think that most, if not all, of the CCR divers on this board would tell you pretty much the same thing.

I personally know some divers that have progressed to CCR diving extraordinarily quickly. It is NOT required that you go through OC Tech training prior to going into CCR diving, only that you have an Advanced Nitrox certification and understand the principles taught in it thoroughly and completely. There is no set number of dives that you must have on OC before taking CCR training - it is all dependent on the individual diver's physical skill and knowledge levels.

In terms of your next step, a good idea would be to attend the "Rebreather Review and Experience" that is being held in June in Mill Creek. Here's the link to information about it: http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/si ... scuba.html

By attending this active seminar, you'll get a fairly decent understanding of how Rebreathers function and the differences between each of the many units on the market, PLUS you'll get to actually dive each one of the units in a pool. As I understand it, attendees will get to try out the rEvo, the KISS (both Classic and Sport models), the Megalodon (both APECS and COPIS models), the Dive-Rite Optima and the SDS Inspiration. This list of units represents the majority of the CCR models available in the American market, so you will gain much by attending this seminar. It would be great if they could get an Evolution there as well, but time will tell on that.

I have no official standing with Silent Scuba, and I "have no dog in this hunt". I simply think that this is the very best way around to figure out which way you'd like to go with CCRs. There are a number of fine CCR instructors out there for the various units, but Silent Scuba is the only source that I am aware of that hosts events like this in which participants can actually try out a variety of CCRs.

It's well worth it.....

- John

[Dmitchell]

I agree with John, Attend Mel's rebreather experience, and get a chance to look at all the units. We who dive them all have our opinions on which is best and why, but in the end, the decision is up to you. The tough thing about switching to a rebreather is that in most cases you have to buy a unit prior to training so it's a leap of faith.

There are several writeups that summarize the basics of the different units online, I think GillEnvy posted his here awhile back and Jo_C on Rebreatherworld.com maintains this one http://www.freewebs.com/jocribley/Rebreather_word.doc .

As far as experience, prior to going to a rebreather, being comfortable in the water is important but you don't need to be full tech trained to dive arebreather. In fact, if you're one of those guys who prides himself on having impeccable buoyancy, you're going to be really frustrated to start. On OC, you can exhale to descend, on CCR you exhale it goes to the counterlungs and you continue to hover. It's an adjustment in your buoyancy that you have to learn. Now you have the BC, Drysuit and to a much larger extent than on OC your lungs or loop volume to sync for buoyancy.

The prereq for CCR is Advanced Nitrox and that can be done at the same time as the CCR course. So all you really need is to be Nitrox certified and have a good understanding of the gas theory's.

Equipment wise, having experience carrying a stage bottle and using reels or spools and shooting a bag would be the most common crossover skills from OC to CCR.

Spend some time on http://www.rebreatherworld.com ask lots of questions then take advantage Mel's experience and try a few out.

Then buy a Classic Kiss (I'm kidding!!)

Hope this helps,

Dave

[Joshua Smith]

I will never dive OC voluntarily again. The majority of all tech diving will be done on CCRs in the near future, imo - there are too many advantages to diving this way to ignore.

[Pez7378]

This is EXACTLY the information I was hoping for. Thank you. I'm sure Dave is absolutely right about the different models, and personal preference, and I can let that go to avoid a flame war about which one is better than which. But I am interested to hear varying opinions about Manual vs. Electronic. Again, thank you all for the input, and the links. I will definately plan on attending the RB experience in Mill Creek this June.

[Joshua Smith]

Manual vs. electronic is a huge debate, but after you study all the different models, and then decide to get a Meg, you can choose either manual or electronic, because they make both!

[John Rawlings]

Manual vs. electronic is a huge debate, but after you study all the different models, and then decide to get a Meg, you can choose either manual or electronic, because they make both!

Odd that Nailer would choose to brag in public that he can go "either way"......

Not a single one of the CCRs out there is perfect for everyone. Nailer loves his COPIS Meg, Dave and I love our KISS Classics, Matt loves his Evolution....and it goes on and on. Each one of us has focused on certain aspects of our unit that made it preferable to us as individuals.

It's important that you consider your choice wisely. When you make your decision, make certain that it is the right one for you and not just based on the opinions of others. Buying a CCR is kinda like choosing a wife or a husband - you want to be absolutely certain that it's the "right one" because the two of you will be together for a long, long time.

- John

[mattwave]

Not a single one of the CCRs out there is perfect for everyone. Nailer loves his COPIS Meg, Dave and I love our KISS Classics, Matt loves his Evolution....and it goes on and on. Each one of us has focused on certain aspects of our unit that made it preferable to us as individuals.

- John

Like I always say, find the CCR that makes the most sense to you, choose a trainer that you will dive with after your initial course and never stop learning.
Complacency kills, the more I learn, the less I know.

[Joshua Smith]

and never stop learning.
Complacency kills, the more I learn, the less I know.

Really, really good advice. That brings up another point- CCRs aren't for everyone- and they will kill you in less time than it takes to read this post, any one of a dozen different ways......if you aren't meticulous about how you dive them.

[Dmitchell]

Really, really good advice. That brings up another point- CCRs aren't for everyone- and they will kill you in less time than it takes to read this post, any one of a dozen different ways......if you aren't meticulous about how you dive them.

They will guaranteed! but used properly, like Josh said earlier, if I had a choice, I would never dive OC again. All it takes is that first bailout scenario in the CCR class. I switched from the nice warm, quiet rebreather to cold noisy OC, my first thought was awww this sucks!

Dave

[John Rawlings]

They will guaranteed! but used properly, like Josh said earlier, if I had a choice, I would never dive OC again. All it takes is that first bailout scenario in the CCR class. I switched from the nice warm, quiet rebreather to cold noisy OC, my first thought was awww this sucks!

Dave

Oh, yeah! I well remember what it felt like when I switched over to my OC bail-out and started getting colder and colder and colder. I just looked back and I made mention of it in my log-book about how unbelieveably cold I got after the switch-over.

Like each of us has said, pick the unit that is most suitable for you, learn it well, and treat both your CCR and your buddies with the utmost care and respect.....life will be GOOD!

- John

[Joshua Smith]

All it takes is that first bailout scenario in the CCR class. I switched from the nice warm, quiet rebreather to cold noisy OC, my first thought was awww this sucks!

Dave

I had the exact same experience! I was like: "Eeeeew! Bubbles!"

Pez- here's a few links from the Rebreather world library you might find interesting:


http://www.rebreatherworld.com/general- ... r-ops.html

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/general- ... ar-on.html



I don't want to scare off anyone who's curious about CCRs, but, yeah- Nobel prize winners and Rebreather instructors have died on them, and now that I have a little experience on mine, I'm starting to realize how much I don't know, and I'm gaining a new respect for my Meg. Just a few weeks ago, I was assembling it the night before a dive, working my way through the checklist. I've probably done this over a hundred times by now, and it seems pretty routine, and as I did a positive/ negative check on the head......it failed. An O ring had popped out of it's track above the sensor carriage, and it wasn't sealing correctly. I straightened it out, it passed, and nothing bad happened; but what jarred me was that I almost didn't "catch" the failure- I had become so used to doing that test, and getting the same result, that I started to move on to the next item on the list before I went ".....wait a minute....that didn't feel right......" I can't think of any kind of parallel with OC diving, short of a massive catastrophic gas loss from a blown burst disk or something, that could kill you, and hopefully you would have a buddy there to share air with.....CCR fatalities are so insidious, because usually, the victim just quietly passes out and drowns.
BUT- I love CCRs, and like I said before, I won't be diving OC unless it's the only choice available!

[Dmitchell]

Yep, I flooded the Kiss awhile back because of a loose quick connect tower on my inhale hose. Passed pos/neg - failed bubble check. Got home took the unit completely apart including both towers. Checked out the manual for the KISS it says "Q/C towers do not remove" ok so what if they remove themselves.... Siliconed both of them back in and they are fine.

Dave

[ArcticDiver]

This has been some really good info. But, what about the "batch diver"? A guy like me who will dive 20 or so dives one month; not dive for a couple months and do another batch again? Is it really practical, or even possible, to keep an acceptable level of proficiency under those circumstances?

[Joshua Smith]

This has been some really good info. But, what about the "batch diver"? A guy like me who will dive 20 or so dives one month; not dive for a couple months and do another batch again? Is it really practical, or even possible, to keep an acceptable level of proficiency under those circumstances?

Well, I don't know.....I guess it would depend on the individual, but there's a lot to be said for staying current by diving a lot- I feel rusty when I go a week without diving my Meg.

[Pez7378]

This has been some really good info. But, what about the "batch diver"? A guy like me who will dive 20 or so dives one month; not dive for a couple months and do another batch again? Is it really practical, or even possible, to keep an acceptable level of proficiency under those circumstances?

I wonder if it would make sense financially to use a CCR under these conditions. It seems that many people, that dive alot, are attempting to reduce the cost by going CC as opposed to spending ungodly amounts of money on Gas every weekend.

Diving the way you describe it, may not cost that much, even if your using trimix. Save for a month or two, do a bunch of trimix dives. Save more, dive more. Now the guy diving mix every weekend? Whoa! Either he's LOOOAOAOAAADDDDDED, or He's going CCR for sure.........right?

[Joshua Smith]

Not necessarily. There is a significant savings in Trimix fills, but you have to weigh that against the cost of the CCR, training, after-market electronics, sorb, loop disinfectant, and so on- it will take me years to recoup that. But with the price of He going up all the time.....maybe not as long as I thought, originally.

[ArcticDiver]

This has been some really good info. But, what about the "batch diver"? A guy like me who will dive 20 or so dives one month; not dive for a couple months and do another batch again? Is it really practical, or even possible, to keep an acceptable level of proficiency under those circumstances?

I wonder if it would make sense financially to use a CCR under these conditions. It seems that many people, that dive alot, are attempting to reduce the cost by going CC as opposed to spending ungodly amounts of money on Gas every weekend.

Diving the way you describe it, may not cost that much, even if your using trimix. Save for a month or two, do a bunch of trimix dives. Save more, dive more. Now the guy diving mix every weekend? Whoa! Either he's LOOOAOAOAAADDDDDED, or He's going CCR for sure.........right?

Certainly CCR economics is a consideration; but far from the primary one. In the overall picture when one includes travel, lodging, etc the cost of purchasing and operating the dive gear itself occupies a minority position. Effectiveness First; Efficiency Second.

THE primary consideration is whether, or not it is reasonable for a person to maintain skills with that kind of diving pattern.

I see CCR as a possibility to permit me to do the kind of diving I want to do without the tremendous logistical problems of tracking down cylinders and gas on a trip.

[Maverick]

I think that the CCR's are awesome Pez, but I can't see spending all that money for the unit. Just spend the money on the gas, and then if for some reason I can't dive for a while I don't have the unit.

If you actually sit and think about how many tech dives you will actually be doing, it is not much and, if a fill is 80-120 bucks, and you need a few bottles. not to bad if you think about all the gas and the price of a ski lift ticket these days. You r Hobbie is just an expensive money pit that only get worse. You will get to the pont where the money you spend on dive gear doesn't even matter. if you need it you buy it I love that . I am think if a compressor and a mixing station at home. not to save money, because it is not cheap, but mor because I think it would be fun to do. And I know people will call me for a fill at odark thirty, for a dive in the morning and my fills will not be cheap

[Pez7378]

I think my head's going to explode. You're all giving me too much to think about....... Well, there will be plenty of discussion about CCR vs. OC in a couple of weeks Hehehehehe.

[Gill Envy]

I think that the CCR's are awesome Pez, but I can't see spending all that money for the unit. Just spend the money on the gas, and then if for some reason I can't dive for a while I don't have the unit.

If you actually sit and think about how many tech dives you will actually be doing, it is not much and, if a fill is 80-120 bucks, and you need a few bottles. not to bad if you think about all the gas and the price of a ski lift ticket these days. You r Hobbie is just an expensive money pit that only get worse. You will get to the pont where the money you spend on dive gear doesn't even matter. if you need it you buy it I love that . I am think if a compressor and a mixing station at home. not to save money, because it is not cheap, but mor because I think it would be fun to do. And I know people will call me for a fill at odark thirty, for a dive in the morning and my fills will not be cheap

Maverick, I think you bring up some important considerations. I would however caution anyone from assuming that rebreathers are only good for trimix diving. Not everyone wants to use them to go deeper, though i'm starting to get that itch too, I originally got attracted to them because I do a fair amount of current diving where an aluminum 80 can get sucked down pretty fast and doubles are too cumbersome. My favorite diving is viewing the exotic critters that tend to hang out in current swept passes. I was finding that a lot of effort and expense was going into travel, preparation and set up and an awful lot of gas was getting used up just to spend a few minutes in the sweet spot of any given dive. Too many OC dives were ending with a longing to stay down longer, stay warmer and have more energy/less nitrogen burn.

For the recreational single tank OC folks considering rebreather diving, it can be worth it if you are finding that you just aren't getting your "fill" with a single, and feeling that doubles are just too much. You do need to dive frequently to stay proficient with the skills. Having a nitrox blender on your back requires more training and skill but has many added benefits, even for the recrational diver... you just have to be prepared to start all over again as no amount of OC diving really prepares you for it, IMHO. Constant po2 diving is a bit like riding a unicycle, you have to learn to go back and forth to maintain balance.

[John Rawlings]

GillEnvy is correct. I use my CCR on every dive now, and most of them are at recreational depths.

As a matter of fact, the KISS SPORT is a locally manufactured (British Columbia) manual CCR that is actually designed for recreational divers as well as for travel.

http://www.kissrebreathers.com/KISSsport/kisssport.html

- John

[Joshua Smith]

I think my head's going to explode. You're all giving me too much to think about....... Well, there will be plenty of discussion about CCR vs. OC in a couple of weeks Hehehehehe.

Come over to the dark side! You'll like it here, I promise. We sweep silently across the underwater realm like avenging horsemen acting as advance scouts for an apocalyptic horde. Sometimes. Usually on weekends, but occasionally on a Wednesday. Depends on everyone's schedule. Sometimes getting the apocalyptic horde together is like herding cats. Other times, we just dive. But the avenging horseman thing is a lot of fun, when you can get the horde together. You gotta try it sometime.

[John Rawlings]

I think my head's going to explode. You're all giving me too much to think about....... Well, there will be plenty of discussion about CCR vs. OC in a couple of weeks Hehehehehe.

Yep.....I'm quite certain that there will be!

[John Rawlings]

HOLY &#*%!!! Those things are expensive!!!

This is true. However....believe it or not the KISS Sport is actually one of the LEAST expensive CCRs on the market. If you want to REALLY vapor-lock take a look at the suggested retail price of the Ourobouros CCR out of the UK!

Anyone that tells you that they want a CCR to save money is either deluding themselves or completely full of SH*T.

You've got to want one for other, realistic reasons, such as photographing wildlife from extremely close range, staying warmer, staying deeper longer, being an avenging horseman in an apocalyptic horde....you know, things like that.

- John