Strobe Lights and White Balance

[Tubesnout23]

Several weeks ago my Canon S90 Ikelite housing and Fantasea Remora strobe light came back from the manufacturers and I have been testing them since then.

From my understanding the strobe light is supposed to have the same spectrum as daylight. However I noticed that it produces a yellow cast on the images.

1) Is that normal and it can be adjusted with softwares like Photoshop?

2) Do I have to set the white balance to a specific setting to get rid of it?

3) Do you mess with the white balance when you take pictures with strobe lights at all?

The first picture from the top is what came out after shooting with the strobe light

In the second pictures I adjusted the colors with Photoshop.

Cheers

[SeattleYates]

White balance underwater is almost always an issue, whether using strobes or not. Cameras just have a really hard time "choosing" a WB that reflects true colors underwater.

Many people (including me) set the camera's WB to "cloudy" as that seems the best general setting for uw photos. However, I still find that I need to "fix" WB on many photos. The simplest way to do that is to use the WB "eyedropper" (in the Raw converter if you're shooting RAW; otherwise use Curves and the middle eyedropper to set the gray level) and click on sections of the photo that you are pretty sure "should be" grey or white (i.e., neutral color). If it still doesn't look right, click a few other such spots. You'll almost always find one that looks "real" to you.

This is another reason to shoot RAW underwater if your camera has that capability; in that case, it really doesn't matter what you set WB at because you can easily and non-destructively fix it in the Raw converter (in Photoshop or Photoshop Elements)!

BTW, just for fun, I opened your second photo in Adobe's Camera Raw (which you can do now via CS5's Bridge) and clicked the WB eyedropper around. Here's what I ended up with:

COSole_Photoshop-WB in ACR.jpg (128.56 KiB) Viewed 3058 times

[Tubesnout23]

Thank you very much for your reply!

White balance underwater is almost always an issue, whether using strobes or not. Cameras just have a really hard time "choosing" a WB that reflects true colors underwater.

Many people (including me) set the camera's WB to "cloudy" as that seems the best general setting for uw photos. However, I still find that I need to "fix" WB on many photos. The simplest way to do that is to use the WB "eyedropper" (in the Raw converter if you're shooting RAW; otherwise use Curves and the middle eyedropper to set the gray level) and click on sections of the photo that you are pretty sure "should be" grey or white (i.e., neutral color). If it still doesn't look right, click a few other such spots. You'll almost always find one that looks "real" to you.

Do you mean the 'eyedropper' in the camera or Photoshop?

This is another reason to shoot RAW underwater if your camera has that capability; in that case, it really doesn't matter what you set WB at because you can easily and non-destructively fix it in the Raw converter (in Photoshop or Photoshop Elements)!

I can shoot Raw with the S90 but I have never done it so far because first of all I want to get better at taking underwater pictures and secondly from my understanding I would need a lot of space in my computer and the screen calibrated something that I don't have right now. My computer is an old PC with a scratched up screen.

BTW, just for fun, I opened your second photo in Adobe's Camera Raw (which you can do now via CS5's Bridge) and clicked the WB eyedropper around. Here's what I ended up with:

The attachment COSole_Photoshop-WB in ACR.jpg is no longer available

WB eyedropper= white balance eyedropper?

Adobe's Camera Raw and CS5's bridge...uuhhmmm! Sorry I don't know what you are talking about here

I guess Adobe's Camera Raw must be a software and a CS5'S bridge a piece of hardware? I will need to investigate...

So far I have been using solely Photoshop when I need to adjust my images.

Here is the same image that I adjusted with the auto color after messing with the custom color adjustments...Now I don't even remember any more the real colors of this C-O Sole!

[SeattleYates]

Do you mean the 'eyedropper' in the camera or Photoshop? )

Sorry - I mean the eyedropper in Photoshop, specifically in the Raw converter (ACR, described below).

Which version of Photoshop are you using? Is it Photoshop Elements or the full (i.e., a CS) version?

I can shoot Raw with the S90 but I have never done it so far because first of all I want to get better at taking underwater pictures and secondly from my understanding I would need a lot of space in my computer and the screen calibrated something that I don't have right now. My computer is an old PC with a scratched up screen.

Calibration has nothing to do with shooting Raw - it has to do with the colors you see on you monitor matching the colors that print on a given printer, and/or consistency in the way things show up on other computer screens. RAW files do take up more space on your computer's hard disk, but it gives you far more flexibility in what you can do without damaging/degrading the quality of an image.

When you open a raw file in Photoshop, it automatically opens Adobe Camera Raw (ACR), which is a raw converter (meaning it converts the raw file into another format, such as a Photoshop PSD file or a JPG). You can do lots of things in ACR (including using the WB eyedropper), and when you're done, you THEN open the file in Photoshop itself. There you can do other things, and then save the file as a PSD or JPG. The important thing is that you haven't damaged the original raw file.

WB eyedropper= white balance eyedropper?

Yes.

Adobe's Camera Raw and CS5's bridge...uuhhmmm! Sorry I don't know what you are talking about here
I guess Adobe's Camera Raw must be a software and a CS5'S bridge a piece of hardware?

Sorry for the confusion! ACR is described above. It's part of Photoshop Elements, as well as the full version of Photoshop. CS5 is the latest full version (as opposed to the "Elements" version) of Photoshop - you'll often see it referred to as Photoshop CS5. Part of the full CS5 version is an integrated program called Adobe Bridge, which lets you look at/organize your files before working on them in Photoshop. Again, it would be helpful to know what version of Photoshop (or Photoshop Elements) you're using.

[Tubesnout23]

Sorry for not clarifying it earlier. I have Photoshop CS version 8.0.

I did an experiment and shot a RAW image. I tried to open it in Photoshop but the software could not do it. Something is missing I guess.

[inflex]

What was your white balance setting on the camera? It looks like you may have set it to cloudy. Shooting "cloudy" with a strobe will result in very orange/yellow pictures.

Keep in mind that you should be using a color temperature similar to your strobe, especially when you're close to the subject. If your strobe is supposed similar to daylight, use that WB setting or choose auto.

You lose reds and oranges as you get further away from the subject or if you are using very low strobe power. That is when you want to raise the color temperature and use settings like cloudy. You'll also want to use cloudy when taking ambient light shots.

If you want to get really picky, take something white with you and shoot a picture of it in the same conditions of the one you shot of the subject. That'll be your reference for the eyedropper.

[SeattleYates]

Sorry for not clarifying it earlier. I have Photoshop CS version 8.0.

I did an experiment and shot a RAW image. I tried to open it in Photoshop but the software could not do it. Something is missing I guess.

The problem is probably that the version of ACR in your Photoshop CS is so old that it doesn't support/recognize raw files from your (much newer) camera. ACR has to be updated periodically as new cameras come out. Here's a link to the latest version, and list of supported cameras: http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html

Frankly, Photoshop CS is so old (5 generations old) that I'm not sure if the latest version of ACR will work with it, or if there's some other version of ACR for it. You could just attempt to install ACR from the link above and see if that enables you to read your raw file. Alternatively, a more cautious plan would be to poke around on Adobe's website to see if it says it will work with all generations of CS (CS, CS2, CS3, etc.), or if some other update is required for CS.

Meanwhile, as inflex mentions in his post, for macro (where almost all of the light is coming from strobes), you might want to set your WB on AWB (auto white balance). I keep mine set on cloudy because I only shoot in Raw, and it is easy to correct the WB after the fact if it isn't quite right. I should have made that distinction.

Sorry that trying to answer your question I may have made this all more confusing. The bottom line is that, IMHO, it is worth shooting raw, and one reason is the ability to correct WB with a single click when opening the file in ACR. OTOH, that will require getting an updated version of ACR so it can read your camera's raw files. If you want to just keep shooting JPGs (which many very good photographers do), check to see if your CS has Curves (not sure where it would be - it's under Image\Adjustments in CS5), and if there's a mid-range (grey) and white eyedroppers there, play with those (clicking parts of the photo that you think should be gray or white) and see if that simplifies your WB/color correction.

Hope that helps (more than it is confusing!).

[SeattleYates]

One quick add-on note! I mentioned that I didn't know if the latest version of ACR was compatible with CS. I just noticed it says it isn't compatible with CS4, so I think we can assume that rules out CS. I'll look around and let you know if I find a version of ACR that a) is OK for CS, and b) has your camera supported. I'm not optimistic, but I'll try...

[elemar]

No promises it'll work since that version of CS is really quite old, but one workaround that sometimes works is to downaload Adobe's free DNG converter to convert the s90's raw file to a DNG and then try loading that in photoshop (DNG is adobe's "standardized" raw format).

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/ ... ftpID=4803

That said, the overall RAW converter in Lightroom 3.0/latest photoshops really is MUCH better than the older converters, so if you do much raw (and for underwater you likely really do want to) it really would be worth upgrading.

[Scubie Doo]

Quick question. Do you have a diffuser on your strobe? If not, this may do the trick. I also agree that shooting in preset modes causes WB issues. And I would agree that shooting in RAW is the way to go.

[Tubesnout23]

Quick question. Do you have a diffuser on your strobe? If not, this may do the trick. I also agree that shooting in preset modes causes WB issues. And I would agree that shooting in RAW is the way to go.

Yes there is a diffuser on the strobe. I am wondering if setting the White Balance using a slate underwater and the light from the strobe would help...

I would like to shoot in RAW but with the version of Photoshop and the computer that I have it is not feasible unless I get a more powerful computer and the latest version of Photoshop. I don't have a lot of money to spare and my dry suit leaks like crazy so I guess shooting in RAW is not one of my priorities right now.

[SeattleYates]

...I would like to shoot in RAW but with the version of Photoshop and the computer that I have it is not feasible unless I get a more powerful computer and the latest version of Photoshop. I don't have a lot of money to spare and my dry suit leaks like crazy so I guess shooting in RAW is not one of my priorities right now.

One low cost option might be to buy Photoshop Elements, the latest version of which is available for around $90 online. I even just found Elements 7.0 (the previous generation, but still very capable) for only $29 here: http://www.viosoftware.com/Photoshop+El ... u6tm46qm71. That would be a really good alternative for raw processing AND editing!

Elements is a simplified version of Photoshop (it contains only the most commonly used "elements"), but has a very good raw converter built into it (including a WB eyedropper), and many other nice features. Its processing power, e.g., color correction algorithms, are probably more advanced than your old CS, and it is easier to use as well. In fact, I actually use Elements in addition to CS5 because Elements has such great batch processing capability.

Then again, I'd have to say that if your dry suit "leaks like crazy," that might be a slightly more pressing issue...

[inflex]

Did you get the canon software with the camera? You can use the RAW converter in canon's software suite. It's not as powerful as photoshop, but it'll work.

You can also get UFRaw, a very powerful RAW converter. UFRaw can be found here: http://ufraw.sourceforge.net/

UFRaw is normally used with GIMP, an extremely powerful photo editing program (comparable and even superior in many aspects to photoshop). Gimp can be found here: www.gimp.org

Both are free and open source.

[Scubie Doo]

Good point. I shoot with a Canon G10 and used the Canon RAW editor for post processing. I believe you can download the program via the website. Does the S90 create *.CR2 raw files? If so the G11 DPP software will work. Before I got CS5 I used Canon's DPP (Digital Photo Professional) and Picasa with solid results. Plus it was nice and cheap :-)

http://usa.canon.com/cusa/support/profe ... ndSoftware

[Scubie Doo]

Actually, I meant to say that workflow was free...

[Tubesnout23]

What was your white balance setting on the camera? It looks like you may have set it to cloudy. Shooting "cloudy" with a strobe will result in very orange/yellow pictures.

Keep in mind that you should be using a color temperature similar to your strobe, especially when you're close to the subject. If your strobe is supposed similar to daylight, use that WB setting or choose auto.

You lose reds and oranges as you get further away from the subject or if you are using very low strobe power. That is when you want to raise the color temperature and use settings like cloudy. You'll also want to use cloudy when taking ambient light shots.

If you want to get really picky, take something white with you and shoot a picture of it in the same conditions of the one you shot of the subject. That'll be your reference for the eyedropper.

I don't remember what kind of WB I used. It may have been Auto or Underwater. Certainly not Cloudy because I did not know about using the Cloudy WB to take underawter pictures until you guys replied to my post!

Yesterday I tried to take a video clip (I could not take still images because my strobe did not work!My husband 'messed' with it without telling me anything and I did not check it until I was ready to splash. Once back home I discovered that it did not have any batteries! ) with ambient light using the Cloudy WB but it did not seem to make any difference. The image was as green as with an Underwater or Auto WB. Maybe taking moving images is different from taking stills? I then used a custom white balance using my slate. It got rid of the green but the whites and foreground had a light pink cast which I wonder whether I would have been able to eliminate if I had had used a filter instead...

[Tubesnout23]

Did you get the canon software with the camera? You can use the RAW converter in canon's software suite. It's not as powerful as photoshop, but it'll work.

You can also get UFRaw, a very powerful RAW converter. UFRaw can be found here: http://ufraw.sourceforge.net/

UFRaw is normally used with GIMP, an extremely powerful photo editing program (comparable and even superior in many aspects to photoshop). Gimp can be found here: http://www.gimp.org

Both are free and open source.

Now that you mention it I remember...Yes the camera came with the software and something else for RAW pictures! I have to mess with it and see if it works!

[Tubesnout23]

Then again, I'd have to say that if your dry suit "leaks like crazy," that might be a slightly more pressing issue...

"...At the end of the dive my undergarment was so wet that we decided to look for a laundromat to dry it with a dryer. At another nice coffee shop my buddy asked a local where we could find one. He suggested we go to Carol's laundromat near the boat yard. It was a funny little place with an exhibition of framed yearly first-found socks, a notice board where customers could write quotes and issues of National Geographic to read...."

You may read the full version of the story here:

http://www.nwdiveclub.com/posting.php?m ... 8&p=166952

[inflex]

Underwater will be very similar to cloudy, probably even more extreme. That would explain the yellow cast.

Ambient light doesn't reach much below 20ft here. Below 20 and using only ambient light, there's simply a lack of other color data captured by the camera, so adjusting white balance in this situation doesn't help much. Adjusting it to the extremes will cause the color shifts like you've seen. You'll just need to get back in the water with the strobe setup

Regarding strobe, it's a great habit to take some test shots before jumping in the water. Check that the flash works, lens cap is off, your settings are as desired, etc.

[Tubesnout23]

I have been experimenting with different settings of white balance and my Fantasea Remora strobe light:

Which one is the 'real' Pink Tritonia?

[dphershman]

May as well throw in my two cents here

The white balance of a strobe is pretty close to daylight. So I never worry about WB at all, because its only an issue with ambient light. If you have enough strobe light you don't need to worry about much ambient light mucking up the WB. If you shoot an image that doesn't have enough artificial light to counterbalance the ambient light i would suggest that you not bother with adjusting the white balance. This is because at depth reds are completely absent. So, if you try to adjust white balance with an absence of red you'll get clipping in the spectrum that you can see-- this makes for weird color casts that are worse than the original. If your photos are truely green from ambient light you're almost better off changing it to Black and White. RAW gives a bit more leeway in adjusting WB than jpeg files do. But everytime you buy a new camera you have to buy another copy of Photoshop just to keep up with the ACR raw converters.

[Tubesnout23]

May as well throw in my two cents here

The white balance of a strobe is pretty close to daylight. So I never worry about WB at all, because its only an issue with ambient light. If you have enough strobe light you don't need to worry about much ambient light mucking up the WB. If you shoot an image that doesn't have enough artificial light to counterbalance the ambient light i would suggest that you not bother with adjusting the white balance. This is because at depth reds are completely absent. So, if you try to adjust white balance with an absence of red you'll get clipping in the spectrum that you can see-- this makes for weird color casts that are worse than the original. If your photos are truely green from ambient light you're almost better off changing it to Black and White. RAW gives a bit more leeway in adjusting WB than jpeg files do. But everytime you buy a new camera you have to buy another copy of Photoshop just to keep up with the ACR raw converters.

So I get the yellow cast because I use only one strobe light?

I actually messed with different settings of the white balance and it seems to me that a WB for tungsten light somewhat reduces the yellow cast and I get better results when adjusting the colors of the picture with photoshop.

Everybody is raving about shooting in RAW. My little Canon S90 has that capability but I think I will wait until I get better results before I start to mess with it.

So which pictures of the Pink Tritonia and White Lined Dirona do you prefer?

[cardiver]

That's strange. Both pics have to much yellow/gold in them. If you are shooting with a strobe you should be able to leave your wb on auto and let your strobe light the scene.
What type of light are you using as a focus light?

[Tubesnout23]

That's strange. Both pics have to much yellow/gold in them. If you are shooting with a strobe you should be able to leave your wb on auto and let your strobe light the scene.
What type of light are you using as a focus light?

I use a UK dive light as a focus light. So it seems that a cooler/bluish tone is preferable...

I took this picture of the same subject with the focus light only:

[cardiver]

That's strange. Both pics have to much yellow/gold in them. If you are shooting with a strobe you should be able to leave your wb on auto and let your strobe light the scene.
What type of light are you using as a focus light?

I use a UK dive light as a focus light. So it seems that a cooler/bluish tone is preferable...

I took this picture of the same subject with the focus light only:

If you are using your hand held for a focus light try moving it away from the subject after your focus is locked and before you shoot. Notice how the color is correct in the above pic but you have a hot spot from your Light Canon.