Northwest Dive and Travel Show Photo Contest Ringer

[Joshua Smith]

They don't publish anything anyone sends them -- the very nice article on God's Pocket that Scott Lundy and I put together didn't ever see daylight.

It's really a shame to hear the bitterness and dismissive posts. I think we have a really active and enthusiastic dive community here, that would truly flock to a good Expo. But the economy has hit manufacturers, who are cutting back on the shows they attend. They have clearly decided that our show isn't on their radar, and it may be in part Rick's fault, and perhaps not entirely. Certainly, with fewer vendors attending, the show was smaller, and the seminars got moved to the main hall to save money, which made them awful and won't encourage anyone to present next year.

Putting on something of this scale is a HUGE, multi-year-long undertaking. Rick may not have done a stellar job of it, but I think we have to recognize that at least he DID it, which no one else had done. I'm very sorry that the Expo is failing -- I would have loved to see it succeed, no matter who was at the helm.

Agree that the new dive magazine is hardly worth the effort to bring it home.

I tried....and, I mean, actually *tried*, which is something I don't often do- to get involved and promote the expo. I'm sorry that it has become what it has become. And Rick deserves as much credit for making it happen in the first place, as he does blame for letting it die on the vine while DNN went national. Like a lot of others around here, I feel like he used us as a stepping stone.

And that article you wrote? It will definitely get published. But he will probably misspell your names and use the pics for advertisements for other products or events without giving you or Scott credit. He's been doing it for years and years.

[maelstrom]

[quote="LCF"]They don't publish anything anyone sends them -- the very nice article on God's Pocket that Scott Lundy and I put together didn't ever see daylight.

That may have something to do with a lack of paid advertising from God's pocket, or everything to do with it. They have made it clear to other outfits that it is "pay to play ".

[Nwbrewer]

the very nice article on God's Pocket that Scott Lundy and I put together didn't ever see daylight.

Post it here! (or did i just miss it?)

[Peter Guy]

What was interesting about the article on God's Pocket and that it never was published is that Scott was (at the time) a "contributing editor" (or some such nomenclature) of the magazine. However, I suspect the real reason it never saw ink was that GP didn't adverise in NWDN but that the Hideaway not only advertised but also provided trips to some recognized contributors who somehow got their stories and pictures published.

[dwashbur]

the very nice article on God's Pocket that Scott Lundy and I put together didn't ever see daylight.

Post it here! (or did i just miss it?)

+1!

[DanClements]

Couple of thoughts. First, with regard to cheating. I sent Amanda an e-mail asking her to verify whether or not she cheated. If she did, or if there is no response, I indicated we would send a "Black Ball" note out to the major underwater dive competitions, Wetpixel, Scuba Board, etc. Tough for an event sponsor to police entries.

Second, I spent about six months a year or so ago working with Rick and Selene on the Saturday night photo contest. The ideas was to potentially have PNWUPS take over the event. After putting together some financial pro formas and trying to work with the Tacoma Convention Center staff, we decided that the venue just does not work for a good quality photo/video event.

So, we have rented Town Hall in Seattle on Saturday, October 4, 2014, for what we will be calling Salish Seas Celebration: Pacific Northwest Underwater Film and Video Festival. We are also speaking with the GEAR event promoters about a photo/video event for their 2014 expo the end of June.

[Scubie Doo]

Couple of thoughts. First, with regard to cheating. I sent Amanda an e-mail asking her to verify whether or not she cheated. If she did, or if there is no response, I indicated we would send a "Black Ball" note out to the major underwater dive competitions, Wetpixel, Scuba Board, etc. Tough for an event sponsor to police entries.

Second, I spent about six months a year or so ago working with Rick and Selene on the Saturday night photo contest. The ideas was to potentially have PNWUPS take over the event. After putting together some financial pro formas and trying to work with the Tacoma Convention Center staff, we decided that the venue just does not work for a good quality photo/video event.

So, we have rented Town Hall in Seattle on Saturday, October 4, 2014, for what we will be calling Salish Seas Celebration: Pacific Northwest Underwater Film and Video Festival. We are also speaking with the GEAR event promoters about a photo/video event for their 2014 expo the end of June.

Dan, this is good news. I was hoping the Dive Expo would outsource this. It has gotten progressively worse over the years. I know we take great pride in our images and videos. When I submit my work to a contest (especially a local one), I expect they be handled with respect and care. Images posted properly, names/titles spelled correctly, rules stated clearly and enforced, winners announced/displayed promptly, and prizes (if any) delivered quickly. Personally, I care more about sizing up my work against other talented folks more than a prize. In fact, if the Dive Expo simply gave away the cover and a small prize to the winner, I think that would suffice.

I look forward to hearing about the upcoming event in October and the GEAR event. Thanks for the info.

[DanClements]

OK, for those who are interested in Amanda Nicholls and her possibly cheating in the Northwest Dive Expo photo contest, here are my thoughts after communicating with her directly.

Despite what her web site says, I don't think she is what one would consider a professional underwater photographer. For photo income, she primarily shoots weddings, and tries to sell underwater photos whenever possible (like many other divers). Not a primary source of income, as it is for folks like Stephen Frink, Alex Mustard, Berkeley White, etc.

She did win Bronze in the Our World Underwater 2013 Unrestricted Wide Angle category with the "Make Room for Me" photo. Winners were announced mid-February, so there is a timing issue submitting a single photo in multiple contests around the same time. (She won a $450 iTorch 4, no money).

She was very gracious and apologetic if she did anything wrong. From my perspective she did nothing worth banning her from other underwater photo competitions. I am extremely interested in running down and "black listing" photographers and videographers who deliberately break contest rules, but don't think that is the case here.

And, once again, I would go easy on Rick and the Dive Expo. Their primary focus is the Expo itself, and as I mentioned earlier, the evening dinner and photo/video event is a money loser. It was great to see Janna and Bruce honored, but this means it is an event with several different themes, making it complicated to work as a photo and video contest finale. Throw in dinner, Tacoma Convention Center A/V rental costs, food and beverage minimums, and it is a really tough venue to pencil financially.

This is why we are working on a single focus underwater photo and video event whose only categories will be temperate Pacific Northwest entries. My guess is 90% of the submittals will be from BC, Washington, and Oregon photographers. It is not a competition with the Expo: it will be a venue to showcase some of the amazing talent in the Pacific Northwest, and share it with the dive community and general public.

Dan

[Bric Martin]

If she sells some of her photos, then how is she not considered a professional? I probably have a dated view of this, but from a contest point of view how can she be considered an amateur if she took money for her photos.

[maelstrom]

You can vet a digital photo in 5 seconds with Google image search or Tin Eye. How will you define, let alone verify whether someone is a professional underwater photographer? The old 30% of your income from photography rule would be impossible to verify without an army of accountants going over everyone' tax returns, and that is not going to happen. I doubt if 100 people on the planet these days make 30 % of their income from underwater photography anyway.

If you really want to separate amateurs from professionals a simpler definition is necessary. Dan's judgement on Amanda's professional status is highly subjective, and already the subject of disagreement above. Amanda bills herself as "photo-video pro". She has sold underwater photographs and has underwater photographs listed for sale with a stock photo agency(also very easy to verify). I don't really understand what makes her not "what one would consider a professional underwater photographer". Verifiable, OBJECTIVE criteria are necessary if we are going to have separate categories.

I would suggest one question: Have you sold for cash, or have listed for sale any underwater photographs within the last 5(or any other number) years? If the answer is no, you are an "amateur". If the answer is yes, you are in the "open" category. If you lie, you will be black balled.

Simpler yet, have just an "open" category, which would at least be honest, if not fair.

Hal

[RoxnDox]

If she sells some of her photos, then how is she not considered a professional? I probably have a dated view of this, but from a contest point of view how can she be considered an amateur if she took money for her photos.

And that (what is a professional) is, of course, the photography equivalent of the Mac-vs-PC holy wars that shall rage on forever once ignited...

[DanClements]

Not being the brightest crayon in the box, the professional vs non-professional question was a bit easier for me. Were any of her actions sufficiently egregious to warrant me sending a note to other underwater photo contests and web sites and potentially have her "Black Listed?" Nope.

If anything is unfair it is the fact she lives on Grand Cayman, dives a lot, and has an opportunity of capturing a gorgeous image because of the amount of time she spends diving in a tropical setting. Tough to compete against that when we Northwesterners maybe get 2-3 weeks per year of tropical diving in.

That's why I think we should have photo and video competitions in our area where the only categories are Pacific Northwest temperate water related. Lots of contests for tropical shots: very few for cold water. And there is an incredible amount of talent and subject matter here.

[maelstrom]

You are certainly taking this in the right direction, Dan.

[kdupreez]

I have no dog in this fight but interested in what people deem "professional" underwater photography.

So I went to www.amandanicholls.com and seems she portrays herself as a professional underwater photographer and does surface stuff in the side?

Quote: "Originally from England, Amanda has been living in Grand Cayman for over 7 years where she works as a photo/video pro, specializing in Underwater Photography."

I guess you can keep telling her that she is not a pro in spite of what she believres, but seems to me this is fairly clear?

There are however a couple of people with the same name doing photography or at least that's what Google reports, so if we are niy talking about the same Amanda here, it might be part of the confusion.

[CaptnJack]

A LOT of our local photographers can or do sell pictures on occasion. And have a website showcasing their photographs as "available" too. But I don't think this puts someone like Lundy or Boyd into the "professional" category. 2 years ago Scott even won something at the show, but I don't recall anyone complaining about it.

Amanda does not sound like a ringer or professional to me. Yes she's taken a few professional quality shots and she's sold a few. And she is attempting to sell more. But she's no Amos Nachoum or David Doubilet. I doubt either of them would even enter the Tacoma show given the prize options... Amanda seems more like the typical ex-pat scuba diver / struggling artist.

I agree that the Tacoma show should focus on doing something well vs trying to do everything half assed. Making the photography PNW focused would be a good thing. With clearer rules.

[kdupreez]

I agree that the Tacoma show should focus on doing something well vs trying to do everything half assed. Making the photography PNW focused would be a good thing. With clearer rules.

That is a great idea!

[enchantmentdivi]

Does anyone know if the entry deadline was extended? I looked at the galleries on the Expo website a week or two before the Expo (was orignally looking for Expo times and stumbled across the galleries). The website at that point said that the entry deadline had passed. However, not only do I not recall seeing a lot of the winners in the galleries at that time, but some of the categories had no entries at all (categories that now have winners listed...).

[John Rawlings]

I regard Amanda as a professional. In my opinion, once photos have been sold for anything above "cost" you are a pro, (for example, many divers "sell" their shots to friends and relatives just for the cost of printing). To me, there is no gray area - you're selling or you're not.

[lundysd]

I really try to stay out of the political side of diving as much as possible, but it appears that I can no longer do that on this particular issue (much to my dismay).

As a local diver, underwater photographer and occasional instructor, and community member... here are some thoughts.

1. UW photo contests are ALWAYS going to be contentious and fraught with controversy. You're asking a few people to choose a "favorite" -- by definition it is subjective and probably unfair. Nevertheless most competitions do their best to be as objective and fair as possible. With respect to this year's contest, I see some elements of both sides of this issue. Photo contests should be fully transparent and strictly adhere to the rules that were established a priori, but in all honestly I don't see Amanda as the type of pro UW photographer banned from entering contests like this. Take me for example -- I'm a graduate student defending my PhD in Bioengineering in 6 days, and for fun I teach a handful of reasonably-priced UW photo classes a year and sell roughly the same number of prints from my website. Does that make me a "pro"? I don't really think of myself that way, especially when my "business" (AKA hobby) consistently operates at a loss, and any gross income from such endeavors is less than 3% of what I make as a graduate student (which is currently below the poverty line). Moving forward, I would modify these rules to instead state that "any PHOTO that has placed..." should be banned (and yes these types of photos have won this contest in previous years). I have conveyed this to Rick personally, and I think he is planning on making these sorts of changes next year. On a more personal note, as I have vocally done before, I urge everyone to treat contests as a learning tool and not validation of one's self worth or skill as a photographer -- AKA don't take them too seriously.

2. The Expo this year, by almost everyone's standards (not the least of which Rick himself), was not a good experience. Prices were up, attendance was down, and the A/V situation made is basically impossible to hear any of the speakers at the seminars. Rick of all people knows this and will probably work towards making the show better next year -- after all this show is probably a big part of the income that keeps the DNN running, and losing support for the expo affects him the most.

3. (flame suit on) I don't think Rick is the evil antagonist most of the comments on here make him out to be. I think he is just trying to run a business to make a living within the PNW dive community. Are there things he does that I'm not a big fan of? Sure, but my experiences with him have been for the most part productive. The issue that has been brought forth to the club that involves me is a story about God's Pocket that Lynne and I put together a while back. I really do think that it was merely an oversight that this wasn't published in the magazine, and in hindsight I should've communicated directly with the magazine staff more regularly to ensure this happened. I would recommend that each of you do what I do when i have a problem with Rick (or most people for that matter) -- contact him directly and tell him about it, and hopefully he'll respond.

[John Rawlings]

Take me for example -- I'm a graduate student defending my PhD in Bioengineering in 6 days, and for fun I teach a handful of reasonably-priced UW photo classes a year and sell roughly the same number of prints from my website. Does that make me a "pro"?

Yes, sorry, Scott, but in my opinion it does make you a professional. Nowhere have I ever seen it said that a photographer must make a profit before they are considered a "pro", or even that they be successful at it. I know that the IRS considered me a pro years before I ever saw a profit from my photos.

I'm sure that Amanda is a very nice person, and I'd love to meet her some day....but if the decision were left up to me (which is most assuredly is not) I would regard her as a professional, and I regard you as one as well.

No offense meant at all....to me, being regarded as a professional photographer is a distinct compliment. It means that someone admired your work enough to pay for it.

- John

[Peter Guy]

I agree with John on this -- which means I must disagree with my friend and all too-infrequent dive buddy, Scott.

This is an issue that comes up in my other hobby, dressage (riding in the sand box for those who aren't in the know!). The national federation, United States Equestrian Federation, has three categories -- juniors, adult amateurs and open. Defining a junior is easy -- anyone under the age of 22 as of January 1 (or some such). Trying to determine if one is an AA or Open (i.e., a "professional") has led to many complaints -- many of the same nature as described here and for the same reasons.

The basic idea, of course, is to keep competitions "fair" -- a professional is assumed to have a higher skill level, more training, better equipment, etc. than the AA. HOWEVER, as we all know, that "ain't necessarily so."

I know (knew) AAs who rode multiple horses each day, had a private trainer and, in fact, rode horses as a full time occupation. THOSE AAs were a whole lot more "professional" than the part-time "backyard trainer" who gave lessons now and then. I also knew riders who got compensated for riding and working horses but considered themselves AAs because they didn't get paid much, didn't have expensive gear and were just working on becoming better riders and their compensation was "free" lessons or "free" board for their horses (or both).

One can either have very clear, but "unfair," definitions of professional and amateur or one can have "fair" definitions but unclear -- you can't have both. Me, I'd go with clear but unfair.

[maelstrom]

All of the arguments and disagreements above serve to illustrate my suggestion that we need to have a strict, simple, OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE definition of pro vs amateur going down the road. I am no longer willing to trust the semi subjective judgement of some delegated official about whether someone is a pro or an amateur. As before, I suggest:

" Have you sold for cash, or have listed for sale any underwater photographs within the last 5(or any other number) years? If the answer is no, you are an "amateur". If the answer is yes, you are in the "open" category. If you lie, you will be black balled.

Simpler yet, have just an "open" category, which would at least be honest, if not fair."

Anyone who has a better idea for a strict, objective, simple, verifiable definition is welcome to suggest it.

[lundysd]

Let's think about this in another way. If I were to give up selling photos and instead maintain my "amateur" status, the prizes I could plausibly win in these contests are nearly universally worth more than the prints i've sold. Furthermore, are you then also going to ban previous winners from winning again, due to their winnings being considered income?

Most competitions use other verbiage to solve this problem. One common approach is to define a novice as "someone who has been shooting underwater photographs for less than 5 years and has not placed in a national or international competition." This is far more clear and enforceable.

Alternatively I would suggest using the logic put forth in the first sentence of the article for "professional" on wikipedia...

"A professional is a person who is engaged in a certain activity, or occupation, for gain or compensation as means of livelihood"

AKA In plain english -- "do you own a substantial portion of your income from underwater photography?" -- yes or no.

This is not an easy issue. I think an open category is perfectly reasonable, and if there existed such a category, then most people who were even remotely "professional" would enter this instead from an ethical standpoint. This category also allows for image manipulation beyond brightness and contrast, which for PNW photographers is important.

[spatman]

Alternatively I would suggest using the logic put forth in the first sentence of the article for "professional" on wikipedia...

"A professional is a person who is engaged in a certain activity, or occupation, for gain or compensation as means of livelihood"

AKA In plain english -- "do you own a substantial portion of your income from underwater photography?" -- yes or no. .

I have no dog in this fight, but ths doesn't work for me, Scott. How do you get "substantial" from the Wikipedia quote? It can be argued that any money earned is put toward maintaining a livelihood.

[lundysd]

If some guy gave me 20 bucks because I helped him change a flat tire a few years ago, does that make me a professional mechanic?