Different drysuits - which one for me?

[2loud4u]

Now that Mrs and Mr Tumbleweed are working rigorously to get out of the tumbleweed status, I have an advice to kindly ask of you, folks.

Last week my husband (owner of a drysuit) and myself (renter of a wetsuit) went out for a few dives in Edmonds and Mukilteo. To my shame and despair -I think I have used up most of the reasons to call off a dive by now - I have descended rapidly from a deep dive and went to Virginia Mason (more of a precaution), I got scared at the Mukilteo wall and turned around and ascended (in a controlled manner), and on my last "dive" - I entered the water up to my waist and got soooo cold that I had to turn around and aim for the warm water in the car to thaw my limbs. I am not a quitter and I truly believe my biggest problem now is that I am VERY cold as I tend to shiver every single time I enter the water.

Now I am considering different types of drysuits. My husband owns a shell drysuit that he got as part of a used gear sale on craigslist. I have been watching deals on there as well, but nothing comes up in my size.

I did see the Mares drysuit for a very reasonable price mentioned somewhere on the site, however my dilemma is whether I am still going to get cold in that since there is no undergarment. I just really don't want to spend money on the neoprene suit to then have to get out shivering and put off the dives till I can afford the shell suit. I do not know firsthand though that neoprene will allow me to lose heat fast, so if you will - please let me know what you'd recommend.

Thank you!!

[Mattleycrue76]

Hm, The Mares suit that was mentioned was a neoprene drysuit so I assume when you say you get cold in neoprene you're referring to a neoprene wetsuit. Although the longterm quality of that particular may be in question, most would agree that it will be among the warmer options, especially when used in combination with some good thermal underwear and/or undergarment. My personal preference are shell suits as they allow for more thermal fine tuning and seem to require less lead to sink. If you could answer a few questions it would be easier to point out the good deals. How much and primarily what type of diving will you be doing? What is (roughly) your budget? And do you fit standard sizes?

I am quite impressed that you have stuck with it through these trying times and I think your assessment is dead on. If you're miserably cold nothing else really matters.

[LCF]

With any drysuit you buy to use in Puget Sound, you are going to need to use some kind of undergarment. My husband started out in a High Tide neoprene suit, and he used a middleweight fleece undergarment with that. If you buy a drysuit that is made of less insulating material, you buy a thicker undergarment.

Drysuits basically come in three types: Neoprene, compressed neo, and laminate. Neoprene drysuits are bulky, heavy and dry slowly, but they provide significant insulation in and of themselves (which is reduced at depth, just as the insulation of a wetsuit is). Mobility is easily reduced because the material is heavy and doesn't stretch much. They tend to be the least expensive drysuits.

Compressed or crushed neoprene is a very durable material. It has a little intrinsic insulating capacity, but not as much as uncompressed neo. It has little buoyancy change with depth. It dries slowly and is fairly heavy. Mobility, as with neoprene, is dependent on the cut and fit of the suit. I thought there would be more stretch to compressed neo than there turned out to be in the suit I bought. Compressed or crushed neoprene suits tend to be expensive.

Laminate suits are light and dry quickly. They have no intrinsic insulating ability, so it's all dependent on the undergarment you wear. (Which is nice, if you travel and want to dive warmer water than here, because all you need to do is change to a thinner undergarment to be comfortable.) Laminate materials do not stretch at all, so the suit must be cut large enough to permit adequate mobility. On the other hand, an overly large suit will tend to trap air and make buoyancy management more challenging. Laminate suits come in all prices from fairly inexpensive to very dear, depending on material, cut, options, and the degree of customization.

Used dry suits can be an incredibly good purchase, if the suit is leak-free. Replacing drysuit seals is not that big a deal, and replacing them all the way around costs under $200, so if someone is selling a used DUI suit for $400 that needs all new seals, it's still a great buy. Zippers, on the other hand, are a much larger project and not as many places will work on them. A suit with a zipper that's seen several hundred dives may not be a good buy at all.

I dive a Fusion drysuit, which is a weird hybrid. The suit is laminate, but cut WAY large. It's covered by a compressive "skin" that keeps it from ballooning or air trapping. I like the suit a lot, because it makes some of the fitting challenges easier. It's in the middle range for price -- with heavy undergarments, hood and boots for about $2K. (Good undergarments for Puget Sound will run you in the $350 to $500 range.)

Hope that helps.

[airsix]

Since you mention watching craigslist for deals it might be a good idea to let us know your sizes and see if anyone here has a suit that is... suitable. There are a LOT of spare suits floating around on this forum.

I am glad you are looking into getting warm. I think having good thermal protection is the first order of business for any PNW diver. Too many divers go after the gadgets and gizmos when what they really need to do is make sure they are warm and comfortable first. You can enjoy a dive with a lot of rented/borrowed equipment, but you can't enjoy a dive if you are cold.

-Ben

[2loud4u]

Mattleycrue76, thank you for your response.

I fit into traditional sizes, it's confusing at times since the "M" means different things with various brands. Budget is tight, that's why that Mares seemed like a good option. Are you saying I can still put regular undergarment (like the one under shell suit) on that neoprene suit?

I looked up their sizes and they make absolutely no sense to me. Their metric system is very strange, they list me as size "S", but 173 cm is NOT small and it's not 5'5 by any stretch of imagination .

It's funny someone in the introductory thread mentioned - to get out and dive with people, which I would absolutely love. Although now that I officially mentioned every trouble under the sun that I had - I think my DH is the only one that is brave enough to dive with me, lol . I am thinking about it as a bootcamp for now with the reward coming after I get a drysuit naive? Maybe, but determined for sure.

Mattley, what kinds of undergarments can go under that neoprene Mares?

Thank you again for all your help.

[fmerkel]

That was a very good summary.

Like yourself I'm thermally challenged. I lack 'bio-prene'.
My 1st drysuit was a hand me down. It was a shell, trim fit, with an old fashioned wooly bear undergarment. In that trim it was WAY better than the wetsuit I had which was a significant improvement over rental wetsuits.
I RAPIDLY started adding thin layers to that suit though as I still got cold as I improved and move around less. I finally reached a point where I could add no more insulation to the suit. But now I knew more.
Next suit was an OS front entry with the thickest (3 layer) undergarment they make. To that I still added poly-type under layers. I needed to add 6# to sink this mess, but my warmth increased significantly and 1 hour dives became possible.

Next suit was a 5mm compressed neoprene (Seasoft). My wife and I got them together, we both dropped 6# and our bottom time went up 10-15" probably due to being warmer and 'sleeker' (less wrinkled).

In between those 2 suits I borrowed a full thickness neoprene suit. I thought I'd be fine with just a thin layer under dry 7mm of insulation. Wrong. I ended up needing significant undergarments under that when diving with any depth at all. That stuff really compresses. The buoyancy swings were noticeable as I was compressing both the suit and the undergarment while diving.

[2loud4u]

LCF and airsix, thank you for your input.

LCF, one thing I definitely want to avoid - is wasting money on the drysuit, so while budget is tight - I would still prefer to go with the warmest option even if it sets us back for a few months. Thank you for such a detailed decription of different types. Did your husband get cold between the dives when he dove with neoprene suit on?

I am sorry if my questions sound crazy, I really have no clue at this point and want to make a reasonably priced/fitting decision.

As far as sizing goes - I am a size Medium in women's wetsuit, 150lbs and 5'9. My shoe size is 8 - does that mean a boot size 9 or 10?

Thank you again to all of you for your participation. I can't wait to dive dry and most importantly - warm.

[Mattleycrue76]

If you decide to go with a Neoprene suit I would suggest a base layer of thermal underwear like the stuff they sell for skiing at REI and such and a thinish undergarment for the winter. That way you can get rid of either layer in the warmer season. Instead of a diving specific undergarment many people use fleece undies that they already have until they can afford something different. Just stay away from cotton (no thermal protection when wet). I would also recommend checking out some of the offerings from Bare as several people on this board have bought their less expensive suits and been very happy with them.

[ArcticDiver]

Well....first of all my experience is that a dry suit extends the time a person can stay in the water before becoming unacceptably cold. But it does not change cold to warm. It changes cold to cool. Unless you use a full face mask your face is still exposed and the hood lets your head get wet. I'm not giving that info to scare you off. It is just that I know people who don't have a realistic expectation of what a dry suit will and will not do.

There are some people who just cannot tolerate cold water. By cold water I mean anything less than the mid-60's F. On the other hand many can train to not only tolerate cold water, but to enjoy it. So, first of all I'd spend some time and maybe even some money renting a suit to be sure you can, in fact, adjust yourself to cold water.

In the process you will get exposed to different kinds of suits and undergarments and be able to decide which is for you.

In my case I bought a Diving Concepts Z-Flex Cordura shell and a customized undergarment. Don't think there is a tougher suit. But, that was 20+ pounds ago and a different body shape. When I get back from my January trip I'll get it out and see if it still is usable by me.

[Gooch]

I really like my Bare Trilam shell. It is at the most affordable rung of the Bare suits; you can get them from local dive shops for around $1K---plus a bit more for a decent thermal suit. I've seen these suits offered for much less online of course and to be honest- I got mine on Craigs for cheap. If you get it from a local shop you will have good support and that is worth a lot too. I think the shell options really leave your choices for layering undergarments wide open so you can tailor them to your liking for the time of year.

[LCF]

I honestly don't think there are people who can't tolerate cold water, unless by that you mean people who decide they just don't like the weight and bulk of the gear required to dive here. I hate being cold more than ANYTHING in the world -- I'd rather be hungry, or in pain, or sleep deprived for days, rather than be cold. I didn't think I would ever dive in Puget Sound because of that.

But I've found that, if you are willing to spend the money and put up with the bulk and the weight, you can actually be very comfortable diving here. Yeah, you're going to go through that first "yipes" moment when the cold water hits you face, and yeah, after an hour, your hands and feet and lips are going to be cold. But I can spend an hour in the water in midwinter without shivering (as long as my drysuit is behaving nicely), and that's not swimming much at all.

I think, if you want to maximize warmth, you are best off buying a thinner drysuit and a thicker undergarment. The reason for that is that the insulation of the undergarment, assuming you keep the gas volume in the suit constant, is not going to change with depth, whereas the insulation of a neoprene suit will.

Don't forget that other matters affect your warmth, too. A thick and WELL FITTED hood is a very important part of staying warm here. So are good (and for me that means dry) gloves. Being careful to avoid chilling before getting into the water is important, too -- I call that conservation of thermal units. Don't waste thermal units in the parking lot, or by doing a lot of floating around before the dive begins!

[Gooch]

So are good (and for me that means dry) gloves

I forgot to mention--dry gloves are diving nirvana

[Tom Nic]

Lots of good advice!

As I'm reading it, I'm remembering myself as a new diver a bit over 4 years ago and am thinking that I would be a bit overwhelmed by it all.

Here's a thought - go visit a couple of your Local Dive Shops and try on a few dry suits! You and your husband can swear a blood oath to not impulse buy anything or let a slick shop person talk you into "their" suit as the latest and greatest and one and only (there is no such thing, IMO). You can get familiar with sizing, with different types & brands of suits, how they feel on you, different undergarments, boot sizing, or socks and rockboots, and then you can make a better informed decision whether you end up buying a used suit or going with a new one..

Depending on where you're located I'm sure we could easily recommend 4-6 shops that would be within an hour's drive.

I know that they will be happy to have you in their shop (of course hoping that you'll ultimately buy from them) and you'll learn alot in the process. (Just hold onto your wallet!!)

[Cold_H2O]

Dove a Whites neoprene suit for years (even Whites couldn't believe how many years I got out of their suit) YES you do need undergarments (undies) with a neoprene suit. Unlike a wetsuit.. they are not going to get wet (at least not often).

I usually dove my suit with a first layer of REI "longjohns". Yes the type you would use for skiing or hiking. The ones that wick the sweat away are perfect.
I would then wear a thin silky pair of socks with a thick wooly pair over the silky ones.
On the bottom half I would wear polyester jogging pants over my "longjohn" bottoms.
On top half I would cover my "longjohn" top with a long sleeved hiking top from REI (never wanted naked arms).

I dove year round and was warm enough to enjoy my dives.

In the summer months. I would lose the "longjohns". sometimes trade the top for a long sleeve t-shirt.

No matter what type of drysuit you get.. You will need "undies" and you can wear whatever works best for YOU!!!!!
(or whatever your budget allows)
Layer like you do for outdoor winter sports.
You can also go with the official drysuit undergarments now and continue to use them when you upgrade your suit later.

Like Tom adviced ~ GO VISIT A FEW SHOPS AND TRY ON SUITS. Try on undies while your at it. Ask lots of questions!

[airsix]

A few more things:

1) when trying on suits you need to try them on with the intended undergarment. Big difference in fit from street clothes.
2) When testing fit, try different positions. A) bending over, B) prone with arms in front, knees bent, c) prone with knees bent and arms reaching behind head. You don't want it pulling on your cuffs or collar when busting these moves.
3) Now that we know your size hopefully some people here can volunteer some suits for you to try-on and/or test-dive.
4) The undergarment is more important that the suit. I'd rather have a great undergarment and a crappy suit than the reverse. I'd be looking at 400g thinsulate or 400g fleece if you get cold easily. (I prefer 400g fleece and dive it both summer and winter. Below 45F I add a fleece pullover in addition). Thinsulate of a given weight is slightly warmer, but bulkier. Some of the robust divers are comfortable in 300g, but in our waters that's too light for me.

[LCF]

Along that line, if you want to try on a Fusion and a MK3 undergarment, just send me a PM. Peter has one that would be the right size, I think.

[ljjames]

fwiw, the crushed neoprene in the DUI is incredibly stretchy. It is a different process than the compressing in other brands (I've dove some of the compressed neoprene suits and found them a rather stiff). It is heavier than the trilam shell suits, but once it's on that is not an issue. it does take longer to dry. but it is bomb proof and gives approx 5 degrees of insulation.

Here is a link to factory closeouts... I have gotten at least one suit from them this way.

http://www.dui-online.com/pdf/fr.pdf

You are rather lucky with your measurements, as you can find a midsized mens suit that should fit you as well, and there are more of those around on the used market than pygmy girl suits with tiny feet.

At least two local dive stores rent drysuits and can probably be convinced to offer a demo dive and drysuit class combined. Seattle UW Sports has DUI, and Silent World in Bellevue has Diving Concepts.

last but not least the DUI Dog Days gives you an opportunity to try on and try out their whole line of suits and undergarments

I wouldn't dive out here if my only option were a wetsuit. Call me a thermal whimp, call me whatever, I just can't do it. I get too cold, the fun meter pegs at negative 50 when i start getting cold.

[CaptnJack]

I wouldn't dive out here if my only option were a wetsuit. Call me a thermal whimp, call me whatever, I just can't do it. I get to cold, the fun meter pegs at negative 50 when i start getting cold.

Ditto I am a major thermal wimp. Consequently a carry what seems to be an enormous amount of weight - but a couple weeks ago after standing around Cove3 for 2+ hours in jeans& jacket I got out warmer than I was when I started my 70 min dive.

[Waynne Fowler]

Ton's of good advice in this thread... I've enjoyed reading everyones post's... Kudo's to all who contributed.

JM2C... I've never met anyone who HATES cold more than I do, nor have I met anyone as thermally challanged as me. I get cold looking at pictures of penquins...brrrrr sayin the word makes me cold...

I own 2 shell suits a TLS350 and CF200, I've more money invested in undergarments than most people spend on thier entire dive kits (Yip even the tech divers). In order to stay even moderatly warm in a shell suit I have to ware so much undergarment that it takes 44lbs of lead to keep me properly weighted (well I may be able to nix 4lbs). The day I switched to my HighTide Pro I dropped 10 lbs, the next day I dropped 10 more.. I now dive with a 300 gm Polar Fleece and 14lbs of lead (with a 6lb BP) and I never EVER get cold anymore... the drygloves and balaclava under my hood help too to be fair.

I find my neoprene suit has equally good range of motion as any shell I own or have tried. I'd pit the durability of my HighTide Pro against my CF200 any day... I've poked holes in my CF (I get into my kit on the ground a lot) but have never poked a hole in my HT Pro. To clarify though... I don't think my Pro is any more durable but it has proven to be every bit AS durable... and because every suit High Tide makes is custom and comes with the undergarment included it's a far less expensive suit... (I'm talking NEW suits here not used)

I'd say you should do yourself a favor and give Eric Morris at High Tide a call 253-857-0755 and gab with him... he's a GREAT guy, is a wealth of knowledge that he is happy to give away free of charge... at very least you'll have a wonderful time chatting. But odds are you'll learn a ton and he'll expect nothing from you. Tell him you wanna hear about the time he put the octopus leg in the car and it grabbed his girlfriends leg from under the seat...... I pee'd when he told me that story!! OMG its funny.

In short... for me... because I have such a heatological deficit and I'm a small guy who doesn't like carrying around a ton of weight, shell suits are not something that works for me. I love the way my neoprene suit swims, my range of motion is better (because I'm not wareing 5 inches of undergarment) and my thermal protection is FAR less expensive because I don't need those crazy thick expensive undergarments.

Good luck in your search...
If you'd like to try a suit pm me... I'd bet i can round up a shell suit and a neoprene suit you could try.

[LCF]

In order to stay even moderatly warm in a shell suit I have to ware so much undergarment that it takes 44lbs of lead to keep me properly weighted (well I may be able to nix 4lbs)

Oh, I know this one. Every tech-type instructor I've had has looked at me in patient sadness when I told them how much weight I carry, and they've promised they could get a lot of it off. And they can't. On the other hand, Bob Sherwood looked at me packing myself into my insulation and said, "Oh, now I get it about the weight . . . "

[ldevore]

Just a slight tangent from this great thread...

When you do get your dry suit, hook up with a good instructor and learn how to use it. It sounds like you are new enough to diving that spending some time learning how to use it will also make your diving experience much more enjoyable. They take a little bit to get used to, so don't be frustrated. I know when ever I get any new equipment, even something "little", like a new light, it can take me 20 or more dives to get used to it.

Have fun!!!

Lauri

[ArcticDiver]

A couple folks have commented that there isn't anyone who can't learn to tolerate cold water; that it is other things, like the gear itself that turns people off. Respectfully disagree. Lots of experience in a cold climate with cold water has shown me that some people just can't handle cold in any form . That is one of the reasons why being able to handle cold is a screening factor for some jobs.

So, to me, given what the OP has said about cold it seems wise to check out different suits and simultaneously be sure she can tolerate, no more than that, enjoy diving in cold water. Not a whole lot of reason to spend big bucks on gear if it isn't something she can enjoy. After all, isn't that why we dive; to have fun?

[Waynne Fowler]

In order to stay even moderatly warm in a shell suit I have to ware so much undergarment that it takes 44lbs of lead to keep me properly weighted (well I may be able to nix 4lbs)

Oh, I know this one. Every tech-type instructor I've had has looked at me in patient sadness when I told them how much weight I carry, and they've promised they could get a lot of it off. And they can't. On the other hand, Bob Sherwood looked at me packing myself into my insulation and said, "Oh, now I get it about the weight . . . "

Sounds to me like your a whole lot gameyer (like my new word?... ima wurd inventor now!!! ) than I am... after just a year I was at the point that if I couldn't make my diving less work I was done... for me good quality neoprene is a god send... but I also have learned over the years all neoprene is not created equal.

A couple folks have commented that there isn't anyone who can't learn to tolerate cold water; that it is other things, like the gear itself that turns people off. Respectfully disagree. Lots of experience in a cold climate with cold water has shown me that some people just can't handle cold in any form . That is one of the reasons why being able to handle cold is a screening factor for some jobs.

So, to me, given what the OP has said about cold it seems wise to check out different suits and simultaneously be sure she can tolerate, no more than that, enjoy diving in cold water. Not a whole lot of reason to spend big bucks on gear if it isn't something she can enjoy. After all, isn't that why we dive; to have fun?

I'd be with you AD... I DO NOT LIKE COLD... cold can suck the fun right out of ANYTHING no matter how much I love it....
I really wish you all word quit typing the "C" word... I gotta put on a jacket just to visit this thread again... brrrrrrrrrrr

[2loud4u]

Thank you so much to everyone who has offered incredible advice. I would like to follow up on my experience so far and ask for more of your time and points of view

We went to UWS in Seattle and tried on the Apollo bio dry, the one that has 2 valves on the same arm. ML size was good on the lower body while the top had a lot of "fluff". I thought it was great since I can wear 1, 2, 3... undergarments. It was a neoprene suit for $1095. We tried to work out a deal, but they would not budge so we left in search of another suit.

Travelled to Anacortes shop over the weekend. I have to say this - Kelley, one of the owners?, was VERY helpful. Too bad we live an hour away. Her suggestion was Bare crushed neoprene which would set us back way too much, it was 1599 not including boots and the undergarment. I did understand the rationale of getting a better suit, yet, I am not comfortable going beyond 40-60 ft yet so crushing neoprene is not much of a concern. She also suggested that I take a drysuit class with rented suit, this way, just like someone mentioned here - I would even know if it's for me.

Now browsing reviews and prices on different suits, I found this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/Bare-NEW-2009-Next- ... 53def1b9ab

Anyone has an opinion on 1. Buying a suit on ebay? 2. This specific suit?

If this one is my choice, which is suspiciously cheap, I would certainly get the warmest undies out there.

[cardiver]

Thank you so much to everyone who has offered incredible advice. I would like to follow up on my experience so far and ask for more of your time and points of view

We went to UWS in Seattle and tried on the Apollo bio dry, the one that has 2 valves on the same arm. ML size was good on the lower body while the top had a lot of "fluff". I thought it was great since I can wear 1, 2, 3... undergarments. It was a neoprene suit for $1095. We tried to work out a deal, but they would not budge so we left in search of another suit.

Travelled to Anacortes shop over the weekend. I have to say this - Kelley, one of the owners?, was VERY helpful. Too bad we live an hour away. Her suggestion was Bare crushed neoprene which would set us back way too much, it was 1599 not including boots and the undergarment. I did understand the rationale of getting a better suit, yet, I am not comfortable going beyond 40-60 ft yet so crushing neoprene is not much of a concern. She also suggested that I take a drysuit class with rented suit, this way, just like someone mentioned here - I would even know if it's for me.

Now browsing reviews and prices on different suits, I found this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/Bare-NEW-2009-Next- ... 53def1b9ab

Anyone has an opinion on 1. Buying a suit on ebay? 2. This specific suit?

If this one is my choice, which is suspiciously cheap, I would certainly get the warmest undies out there.

If you do a search on this sute you will find numerous reviews of the NexGen suit. I've had mine for 7 years and I've never had a problem with it.
Look at ScubaToys or Tacoma Scuba also if you're concerned about buying it on Ebay.....