Looking for information on 4th Element

[trevorrowe]

I'm my quest to stay comfortable underwater, I've been thinking a lot about my drysuit undergarments and how well they keep (or don't keep) me warm.

I know lots of people are in the weezle camp. I've gotten lots of 1st hand reports about what people like/dislike about their weezles. Now I'm looking for information on divers who have used or have "reliable" information on 4th element layer. Some questions that come to mind:

1) what layers do you use?
2) How bulky is it with those layers?
3) Do they keep you warm, toasty, popsicle like?
4) How well do they perform when wet?
5) If you had to replace them (lost/stolen) would you buy them again or something else, and why?

Any other insights would be great as well.

[Jaksonbrown]

The 4th element undergarmets ROCK! I went from a weezle style to the the 4th element and would never go back. I was also able to drop 20lbs of weight when I switched.

[Grateful Diver]

The 4th element undergarmets ROCK! I went from a weezle style to the the 4th element and would never go back. I was also able to drop 20lbs of weight when I switched.

It's really an individual thing, I suppose. I went the other way (Fourth Element Arctic to Weezle Extreme), and was able to drop about 8 lbs. Go figure ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[cardiver]

The 4th element undergarmets ROCK! I went from a weezle style to the the 4th element and would never go back. I was also able to drop 20lbs of weight when I switched.

Your last ug was 20 lbs positive????

[Nwbrewer]

I'm my quest to stay comfortable underwater, I've been thinking a lot about my drysuit undergarments and how well they keep (or don't keep) me warm.

I know lots of people are in the weezle camp. I've gotten lots of 1st hand reports about what people like/dislike about their weezles. Now I'm looking for information on divers who have used or have "reliable" information on 4th element layer. Some questions that come to mind:

1) what layers do you use?
2) How bulky is it with those layers?
3) Do they keep you warm, toasty, popsicle like?
4) How well do they perform when wet?
5) If you had to replace them (lost/stolen) would you buy them again or something else, and why?

Any other insights would be great as well.

1) I use the xerotherm undies (thinnest). On top I add a 200 weight polartec fleece vest and when it's really cold I throw on a UA coldgear shirt. Mostly I just wear a T-shirt though. 4th element sells a vest like what I wear, but I made mine, ugly but effective.
2) Not very bulky at all.
3) I'm pretty warm most of the time, but I dive a neoprene suit and I have generous biotherm.
4) The only wetness I've had has been a valve leak on my arm, soaked one arm and down to my stomache a few times before I got it sorted out. Only place I new was wet due to cold was at the leak, the rest was pretty warm.
5) I'd buy them again. For the cost they have performed well. I bought one of their beenies this winter, and it kept my dome warm even on some of those mornings in the low teens.

If you're diving a shell suit look at the Arctic thickness with a base layer, maybe a vest.

[airsix]

1) what layers do you use?
In Puget Sound I use 1 layer of poly-pro base and the 4th Element Arctic fleece. Drygloves w/ poly-pro in summer, fleece in winter. This is very comfortable for me with no chill even after a full hour.
In freshwater ranging from ~35F to 45F I add a single layer fleece pullover. Still get cold after 40 minutes though.

2) How bulky is it with those layers?
"Summer mode" with just poly-pro base and Arctic fleece is not bulky at all. It's snug and stretchy.

3) Do they keep you warm, toasty, popsicle like?
Very comfortable in Puget Sound. I don't get chilled on 1hr dives.

4) How well do they perform when wet?
Haven't really had to deal with that.

5) If you had to replace them (lost/stolen) would you buy them again or something else, and why?
I would buy them again. Warm, and I love the snug fit and stretch. I went to these from a 400g thinsulate. The thinsulate was just slightly warmer, but too bulky and puffy.

[lizard0924]

I have the Arctic top and bottoms, and wear them with polypro leggings and long-sleeve top. The Arctics used to keep me warm just fine, but then I lost a bunch of weight and now I am freezing when I dive. (Apparently all that excess blubber I was carrying around really did have insulating properties!)

I just ordered a Weezle Extreme and boots, and am looking very much forward to their arrival. Come on, shipment from UK....hurry up!!!!

[Seaslave]

1) what layers do you use?
2) How bulky is it with those layers?
3) Do they keep you warm, toasty, popsicle like?
4) How well do they perform when wet?
5) If you had to replace them (lost/stolen) would you buy them again or something else, and why?

1) I use the Arctics, top and bottom. Bought a set in March 2007.
2) A little thicker than a regular fleece pullover. I wear them when duck hunting also with little or no effect to dexterity.
3) Very warm.
4) I've flooded my dry suit twice soaking them and besides the point of entry, I remained quite warm.
5) I'd like to try a Weezle, but would not have any heartache about purchasing a new set at all.

-Mathue

[John Rawlings]

The 4th element undergarmets ROCK! I went from a weezle style to the the 4th element and would never go back. I was also able to drop 20lbs of weight when I switched.

Uhhhh....what is meant exactly by the term "Weezle Style" undergarment?

It is the materials themselves that make the difference, not the style or the physical appearance.

Most folks are able to drop weight when they switch to a Weezle.....

I'm 6' 4" tall and a "big boy". I have several Weezles (Extreme, Extreme Plus, Oxygen Set 2-piece) in my size that folks could try, but you'd need to be at least close to my size.

- John

[trevorrowe]

Uhhhh....what is meant exactly by the term "Weezle Style" undergarment?

Thats just me being overly generic. I guess I've head lots of information (pro/cons) about the weezles. Now I'm looking for specific information/experience on the 4th elements. I realize not all undergarments are equal, and that everybody's opinions of them are very subjective.

[cardiver]

Uhhhh....what is meant exactly by the term "Weezle Style" undergarment?

Thats just me being overly generic. I guess I've head lots of information (pro/cons) about the weezles. Now I'm looking for specific information/experience on the 4th elements. I realize not all undergarments are equal, and that everybody's opinions of them are very subjective.

I think that John was referencing jacksonbrowns post.......

[sheahanmcculla]

I realize not all undergarments are equal, and that everybody's opinions of them are very subjective.

Yeah, if you go over to "TDS", they all say Weezles make them have to wear more weight, and the fourth element are good for losing weight. Yet here people are dumping weight when switching to the Weezles.

I am confused. Any loft engineers here?

[John Rawlings]

Yes....I was curious and was asking Cory what he meant.

[Penopolypants]

I have the Fourth Element subxero set and I also have the arctic bottoms. I prefer the subxero set but usually dive the arctic bottoms and subxero top due to constrictions with my old dry suit (a fusion). I have used the subxero set in the summer and I was comfortable, but in the winter with multiple layers I was still freezing at the end of a dive.

With my new suit (compressed neoprene) I recently dove the arctic bottoms and subxero top again, but I can’t judge how well they performed because the first dive my suit leaked like a sieve, and the second time my dive only lasted about 30 minutes.

So, diving my old fusion drysuit and the subxero top/arctic bottom combo:

1) 1-2 layers of polypro and REI’s expedition weight long johns

2) Less bulky than the weezle, but stiffer.

3) Not warm, okay in the summer, still cold in the winter.

4) Quite well the one time it happened, but it was a short dive.

5) Maybe. My favorite for warmth was my weezle extreme + with a layer of polypro + REI expedition weight longjohns, which was the only combo that kept me from being miserable on long winter dives in my old suit. However, that suit was excruciatingly difficult to don with the weezle, so if I still had my old suit I would probably stick with the 4th element stuff.

I prefer the top/bottom aspect of the 4th element arctic set. The advantages of that are lost in the subxero set even though it has a top and bottom due to the design of the bottoms.

If 4th element went under and the only thing I had to buy was weezle in either situation I would do so without hesitation.

[trevorrowe]

I prefer the top/bottom aspect of the 4th element arctic set. The advantages of that are lost in the subxero set even though it has a top and bottom due to the design of the bottoms.

The idea of separate tops/bottoms appeals to me (though I've never tried it out to see if I like it).

I have heard (on the internets ...) that its fairly popular to use subzero bottoms with the arctic top. The idea is the sub xero bottoms provide 400g insulation for the legs and torso (farmer-john style) and then the arctic provides additional torso warmth and then cover for the arms, without sacrificing flexibility in the arms (which I have heard can be an issue with the subx top).

All that said, what is the warmth difference on your legs between the subx and arctic leggings? Are the subx really that much warmer? Also, how well can you vent with the subx top? Do the shoulder vents work as expected?

[Penopolypants]

I prefer the top/bottom aspect of the 4th element arctic set. The advantages of that are lost in the subxero set even though it has a top and bottom due to the design of the bottoms.

The idea of separate tops/bottoms appeals to me (though I've never tried it out to see if I like it).

I have heard (on the internets ...) that its fairly popular to use subzero bottoms with the arctic top. The idea is the sub xero bottoms provide 400g insulation for the legs and torso (farmer-john style) and then the arctic provides additional torso warmth and then cover for the arms, without sacrificing flexibility in the arms (which I have heard can be an issue with the subx top).

All that said, what is the warmth difference on your legs between the subx and arctic leggings? Are the subx really that much warmer? Also, how well can you vent with the subx top? Do the shoulder vents work as expected?

They're warmer, definitely. I tend to wear fewer layers with the subxero bottoms and more layers with the arctic bottoms so I can't give you a definitive answer about the extent of the difference though. No problems venting at all.

You're more than welcome to borrow mine if it will fit you. My top is a medium and the subxero bottoms are a large short (I'll be delighted when they come out with women's sizing that will fit over my giant ass). The arctic bottoms are men's size large.

[trevorrowe]

I use the Arctics, top and bottom. Bought a set in March 2007.

How well have they held out/lasted for you? I have my Bare undergarment, its just over a year old and showing signs of wear. I'm pretty rough on all my gear (as all of my dive buddies can attest). I don't see why they should suffer the same fate as other garments that break down over time from being worn and compressed, but then again I've never tried them. Anyone else have 4th element they've had for a while?

[geo]

I really like 4th E - I have the SubXero, Arctic, Xerotherm and drybase sets, and have owned them since Feb '09.

They are holding up very well and I am pretty hard on my gear. I've put a small hole (1/4") in the outer layer of the Arctics, but other than that they appear to be in excellent shape.

I find the SubX extremely warm but too bulky for my close-fitting suit and very floaty.

Pretty much settled on the Arctics for most dives, with a base layer of either Polypro or the DryBase. For socks I wear boot socks with wicking liners. Keeps me toasty for almost all dives. Most of my dives last an hour, plus or minus a few mins. A mix of slow-paced photo dives and kickfests. Once in a while in the 2 months or so I got a brief chill, generally when tired or extremely inactive.

If I had a looser suit I would probably dive the SubX more during winter, and to heck with the extra 10 lbs. I have never ever been cold in the SubX, and I LOVE the two-piece jacket/farmer john setup. It has pockets, and the Arctic does not. For a while I was diving Arctic legs and the SubX top.

John, I thought you dropped your 8 lbs going from a SubX to the Weezle, rather than going from Arctic to Weezle. That would line up with my experience. I find that there is a significant floatiness to the SubX. It IS wonderfully warm though. The Arctic doesn't feel too floaty at all to me.

Venting has not been any problem whatsoever with any of the gear, nor has zipping up.

I have flooded one arm a couple of times, found a wet spot under the dump valve a couple of times and flooded my right leg from the hip once by not zipping up completely, and have never been cold. The fabric retains heat very well when wet.


I'm 6' 1 and about 220 lbs. If you're near the same size and you want to meet up I'll let you try 'em out. I bought the stuff when I weighed 245 and it was a little snug but still fit. It is all size XL gear. It is all quite long. I would wish that the SubX legs were a couple of inches shorter.


Cheers,

-g

[trevorrowe]

I went on a 2-dive charter over the weekend (on the Deep Sea out of anacortes). It was fun, and I got to borrow some 4th element subx garments (thanks PPants).

2 dives, each within 5 mins of 1 hour long. Water temperature was 46 degrees. It was mostly sunny with a bit of wind, but it wasn't overly warm (45-55 degrees). I was wearing:

* thin layer of polypropylene long underwear, top + bottom ($14 a piece from the army navy surplus)
* Subx bottoms (with the farmer john fleece top)
* Subx jacket
* bare trilam tech hd drysuit (shell suit)
* +6 extra pounds of lead

My observations:

I did not get cold, nor did I chill. I wasn't working very hard underwater, most of the time was spent drifting or mild kicking. I was really impressed with the insulation of the subx. The major draw-back was its added bulk. My drysuit is large enough to fit a lot more garment inside, which was nice, but the subx doesn't compress much. The added bulk did not interfere with my mobility (again, thanks to the large drysuit), I was able to reach valves and perform normal movements underwater.

Out of the water it performed like a champ. I peeled my drysuit top back down to my hips and just unzipped the jacket. It was a *wonderful* windproof jacket and if I needed, it is supposedly also waterproof, though I did not test this feature.

I did not leak, so I can't speak to its performance when wet.

Conclusions:

* super-dooper-warm (warmer than the weezle extrreme I demo'd for 30 mins)
* stylish, could double as snow clothes in a pinch!
* bulky, you need extra room for it in your drysuit and extra weight to stay down

The added bouyancy is a tough one. I just got finished removing weight and I hate the idea of needing to add it back on. But there you go.

[spatman]

thanks for the info, trevor. are you planning on trying out the Artics, too?

[trevorrowe]

thanks for the info, trevor. are you planning on trying out the Artics, too?

Yup, or I would seriously like to. I'm going on another 2-dive charter in the same area on the 24th of this month (2 weeks away). If anyone has any size large 4th element arctics (or weezle extreme) to loan me I'd love to try them out.

[spatman]

Yup, or I would seriously like to. I'm going on another 2-dive charter in the same area on the 24th of this month (2 weeks away). If anyone has any size large 4th element arctics (or weezle extreme) to loan me I'd love to try them out.

sheahan's got a weezle extreme plus he's selling. maybe you could try that out?

http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11699

[trevorrowe]

sheahan's got a weezle extreme plus he's selling. maybe you could try that out?

http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11699

I've actually got that in my possession atm. He's already loaned it to me, and I dove it once for a short dive (27 mins). I'll certainly use it if its still available for loan in 2 weeks, but I'm guessing hes going to have sold it before then.

[trevorrowe]

I haven't had a chance to try out the 4th element artics like I wanted, but I did get to borrow Sheahan's weezle extreme plus for a comparable 2-dive day in the san juans. This was an excellent opportunity to put the weezle through the same paces i put the subxero.

First I'll share my thoughts/experience with the weezle extreme plus and then I'll note some comparisons between it and the subxero.

I went diving with REEF for 2 survey dives, James Island North Wall and Broken Point West side. There was little to no current to speak of for either dive. We were counting criters and so it was slow moving. We spent ~50 mins underwater for each dive. Topside was cloudy/overcast, not much wind and about 50 degrees, with ocassional drops of rain.

- I stayed warm, during both dives and topside.
- I stayed dry, so I can't speak to the weezles performance when wet
- I did not add any weight to my rig, I was light, had I drained my tank I would have had issues



I went on another 2-dive charter over the weekend. I was critter counting with REEF. It was fun, and this time I got to borrow Sheahan's Weezle Extreme plus.

2 dives, each 50+ mins long each. Water temperature was mid 40s. It was overcast and threatened to rain all day, but never managed more than a few drops. I was wearing:

* thin layer of polypropylene long underwear, top + bottom ($14 a piece from the army navy surplus)
* +1 more think layer of polypros on the top only (did not wear this extra top piece with the subxero).
* Weezle Extreeme +, size large
* bare trilam tech hd drysuit (shell suit)
* my standard weighting (10 lbs, did not add extra for the weezle)

My observations:

I did not get cold, underwater or topside. The dives were leisurely slow kicking w/out any current while counting fish. The weezle did me well. It is pretty bulky but compresses well enough. I really should have added weight, but did not. Had I drained my tanks I would have had issues. I was just able to stay down ~15 fsw with 1600 psi left in my HP 119. Mobility was great, I was able to reach my valves, etc.

Out of water performance was good. I dropped my drysuit down to my hips and left the weezle zipped up.

I did not leak, so I can't speak to its performance when wet.

Conclusions:

* very-warm
* you look like the michelin man
* bulky, you need extra room for it in your drysuit and extra weight to stay down

Comparison to the subxero

The subxero is bulkier and compresses less. Mobility wasn't an issue with either undergarment, but I liked the subxero separate tops + bottoms. It was easier to don/doff, use the bathroom, etc. They were both warm. In my previous review of subx I said I thought it was warmer than the weezle, I still think so. The weezle was warm, but the subx was warmer. Probably because it doesn't compress as much in your front torso. I added a layer of polypropelene to my top and there was still a tiny difference. The subx also has better construction, much heavier duity zippers, tougher fabric, etc. Its also stylish and could be worn for other activities.

It may sound like I'm gushing over the subx, I'm just trying to be fair, so heres the flip-side. The subx requires much to much weight for my preference. I was able to dive (though light) with the weezle. I had to add 6 lbs to just get under with the subx. My best estimate is +5 lbs for a weezle extreme plus and +10 for a subx (as compared to my old and crushed bare 400g undergarment). The weezle also compressed for storage / travel much better. It takes about 1/3rd the total space in its compression sack compared to the subx.

The other thing I kinda wished I could have compared was performance when wet. The subx has a fleece layer that antectodaly takes a very long time to dry out, whereas the weezle supposedly does quite well when wet and drys quickly.

Conclusions:

Its hard to say which I would purchase if buying new. Subx and weezle extreem plus are both a little less than 500 new. I would probably lean towards the weezle right now, as it performs nearly as well warmth wise and is so much less boyuant. There you go. I still would like to try out some 4th element articts if somebody would like to loan me some!