Rebreathers.....

Need advice on recreational gear configurations? Look no further than this equipment forum.
Locked
User avatar
Jaksonbrown
Amphibian
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:58 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Jaksonbrown » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:25 am

CaptnJack wrote:Richard Mork's death a well analyzed accident which was pretty clearly preventable with a different attitude and gear maintenance. You can search for the threads on TDS.

Geek wrote:And Richard started out this thread by kinda being an A$$ so I think Cory's response was thought out and measured :angelblue:


Cory taking care of his gear is like me being a warm fuzzy moderator, just ain't gonna happen. Best to know where one's strong and weak points are in diving and life in general instead of going along like money is the only issue/impediment.



What is with you dude... YOU DONT KNOW ME... GET IT??? You have never been around me for more than a couple of hours when I came all the way to Port townsend and back to graciously pick you up and drop you off for a dive that I didnt invite you to, nor did you contribute to the gas fund. Thanks alot.

What is it that has got your cheeze in a wad? All I can think of is the "running out of oil" that occured on the boat... and hey,,.. guess what... as it turns out,... I didnt forget to add oil, and we didnt run out.. turns out I had a faulty sensor that has not been reading the oil level correctly as Matt and the boys can attest. I know.. let me guess.. the sensor failing is my fault also...seeing as how I had just bought the boat.... Other than that.. whats your beef.... Spell it out already...

User avatar
ljjames
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2685
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:46 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by ljjames » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:28 am

CaptnJack wrote:
Cory taking care of his gear is like me being a warm fuzzy moderator, just ain't gonna happen. Best to know where one's strong and weak points are in diving and life in general instead of going along like money is the only issue/impediment.


do you live with him and dive with him? where do you get off saying that Cory won't take care of his gear. For chrissake Richard, give it a break!!!!

Maybe he will, maybe he won't, as i said before, there is evidence out there that he takes impeccable care of at least some of the items in his scuba stable. You are in essence, a complete stranger. You really have no business even making a comment like that, its just ass talk.
----
"I survived the Brittandrea Dorikulla, where's my T-shirt!"

Jeff Kruse
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:41 am

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Jeff Kruse » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:30 am

:popcorn:

User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10228
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Joshua Smith » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:38 am

Yeah, you should probably back off this one, Richard.

FWIW, I have a rep for being hard on gear, and I'll be the first to admit I'm not the uber-anal retentive gear maintenance nazi. You don't have to be that way to be a good CCR diver, as long as you ARE careful and thorough about doing your checklist and changing your Cells on time.

And having the toughest freaking make of rebreather in the world doesn't hurt. :supz:
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."

User avatar
Sockmonkey
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1467
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:43 am

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Sockmonkey » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:42 am

Joshua Smith wrote:
A Monkey Made From a Sock wrote:Here's a (loaded) question for the bubble-less among us.... how many CCR deaths have anything to do with shoddily maintained gear?

-Eric


Probably the vast majority of them- but nobody can be sure of that; just my best guess.


I guess what I was trying to wring out of our gang of silent batsh!t crazy CCR divers is that there seems to be enough to go wrong outside of a gear malfunction. I'm guessing that toxing can easily happen even if your rig is maticulously maintained. While I think his reasons are unsound, I'm not trying to stop Cory from buying a rebreather (as someone pointed that this thread is only probably only egging him on) but I'm curious to know what else goes wrong.

From where I sit (read: a place of relative ignorance) CCR's scare the living crap out of me. I say this not just because I'm prone to jewy woody allen yenta worry. The level of complexity... in the gear but also in problem solving and increased need for situational awareness.... far surpasses what the average diver... even most tech divers... experience while under water. There has to be a reason why the CCR course is so intense?

For the record every time I type CCR I think:

"Do you find them much these stolen cars?"
"Sometimes but I wouldn't hold out much hope for the tape deck."
"Or the Creedence."


-Eric
"I used to do this for fun, but now, I do it for nothing" -Not Joshua Smith

:eric: Hawaiian Seamonkey Blog

User avatar
Mattleycrue76
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:00 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Mattleycrue76 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:45 am

One of the things I hear brought up alot both with CCRs and technical diving in general is that you need a "good" reason to do it. I've always been puzzled by this type of statement since to me it implies that someone other than myself gets to decide what constitutes a worthy reason. If I want to go to three hundred feet to watch plankton float by so what? My motivation for going deep (or using a CCR) has no direct correlation to the safety of the dive. Understanding the risks involved and the limitations of my gear and myself as well as getting the proper training and building experience are what will determine the safety.
"The She-Ps didn't work for either one of us, however- we accidently glued one to Dan's cat, and the other one ended up in a DEA evidence locker somehow." - Joshua Smith

User avatar
airsix
I've Got Gills
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:38 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by airsix » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:54 am

Jaksonbrown wrote:Other than that.. whats your beef.... Spell it out already...


You were born in a rural Southeast Idaho town very near the border of Wyoming.
The riddle is figuring out what exactly happened to Richard all those years ago in Wyoming to make him inherently critical of people from areas of low population density. :smt064


Here's how I look at the whole CCR vs. OC thing. It's like cars and motorcycles. Theoretically and statistically motorcycles are more dangerous than cars. However, as a human, capable of exercising free will, you have the ability to skew the odds. You can't magically make either one completely safe, but you can increase or decrease the baseline risk through your own efforts or lack thereof. Who is at greater risk, a 16yr old texting and driving, or a motorcycle rider who is intimately familiar with the physics of riding and who rides with extreme alertness and caution? Now granted, if both are exercising equal levels of skill and caution the one in the car is safer. But criticizing a person for going CCR is like criticizing them for buying a bike. The buyer and the critic both have a point and in the end who's to say who's right? It's a personal choice.

-Ben
"The place looked like a washing machine full of Josh's carharts. I was not into it." --Sockmonkey

User avatar
Jaksonbrown
Amphibian
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:58 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Jaksonbrown » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:58 am

airsix wrote:
Jaksonbrown wrote:Other than that.. whats your beef.... Spell it out already...


You were born in a rural Southeast Idaho town very near the border of Wyoming.
The riddle is figuring out what exactly happened to Richard all those years ago in Wyoming to make him inherently critical of people from areas of low population density. :smt064


-Ben

:eek: :eek: :eek:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7759
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by CaptnJack » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:03 am

Joshua Smith wrote:There was even more to that story. His dil bottle had 32% nitrox in it (a no-no, though not necessarily a fatal one). His whole unit had been flooded the previous year, and he just dried the cells out and kept diving them......past their expiration date, and after a full immesion in water. They were badly current-limited. And his solenoid had been taken apart and reassembled with a crucial part upside down- it was leaking ~10 lpm into the loop. By contrast, the orifice in my manual ccr is set at 6 lpm. While this is up to the individual's metabolism, 10 lpm is "off the charts". I'd go hyperoxic in minutes at that rate.I don't mean to disrespect the dead, but I heard his death described as "suicide by rebreather," and, well- it fit.


Yeah it was the solenoid mods that I was thinking of that really killed him. I forgot about the weird choice of dil which pretty much prevented any ability to flush away that 10lpm even if he'd done it. I just remember everyone (myself included) thinking he had some sort of CO2 induced seizure due to his weird behavior immediately prior, when it was really more like panic at being unable to drop the ppO2.

ljjames wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:
Cory taking care of his gear is like me being a warm fuzzy moderator, just ain't gonna happen. Best to know where one's strong and weak points are in diving and life in general instead of going along like money is the only issue/impediment.


do you live with him and dive with him? where do you get off saying that Cory won't take care of his gear. For chrissake Richard, give it a break!!!!

Maybe he will, maybe he won't, as i said before, there is evidence out there that he takes impeccable care of at least some of the items in his scuba stable. You are in essence, a complete stranger. You really have no business even making a comment like that, its just ass talk.

Oh good grief. There's plenty of evidence throughout this board and even this thread.

Mattleycrue76 wrote:One of the things I hear brought up alot both with CCRs and technical diving in general is that you need a "good" reason to do it. I've always been puzzled by this type of statement since to me it implies that someone other than myself gets to decide what constitutes a worthy reason. If I want to go to three hundred feet to watch plankton float by so what? My motivation for going deep (or using a CCR) has no direct correlation to the safety of the dive.


Actually it does, statistics amply demonstrate that deeper is more dangerous on OC. To some extent its true on CCRs as well, but they tend to be riskier in general anyway so its harder to draw a trend. The thread about the "deepest woman" record chasing death (on CCR) is salient to this topic. It was only last week on TDS. Also the deep air lala stories in Exley's "Caverns Measureless to Man" really open your eyes to perspectives on risk and "acceptability". I can loan you the book if you'd like. If your waffling on a dive one thing I suggest is running your ideas and concerns by your spouse/SO, that can really remind you (me, whomever) about "values".

I'm all for people diving however they wish, and more power to Cory if he wants more toys. I can still think its a bad idea and don't see any compelling reason to do anything more than agree to disagree.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.

User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7759
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by CaptnJack » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:04 am

airsix wrote:
Jaksonbrown wrote:Other than that.. whats your beef.... Spell it out already...


You were born in a rural Southeast Idaho town very near the border of Wyoming.
The riddle is figuring out what exactly happened to Richard all those years ago in Wyoming to make him inherently critical of people from areas of low population density. :smt064


Lol, I spent almost 3 years in Lander, WY pop, 8,000. Nearest and only diving was some spring north of Casper :(
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.

User avatar
airsix
I've Got Gills
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:38 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by airsix » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:08 am

CaptnJack wrote:Oh good grief. There's plenty of evidence throughout this board and even this thread.


Richard, I respect your intellect far too much to let you get away with an "I read it on the Internet" defense. :rofl:
"The place looked like a washing machine full of Josh's carharts. I was not into it." --Sockmonkey

User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10228
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Joshua Smith » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:10 am

Sockmonkey wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:
A Monkey Made From a Sock wrote:Here's a (loaded) question for the bubble-less among us.... how many CCR deaths have anything to do with shoddily maintained gear?

-Eric


Probably the vast majority of them- but nobody can be sure of that; just my best guess.


I guess what I was trying to wring out of our gang of silent batsh!t crazy CCR divers is that there seems to be enough to go wrong outside of a gear malfunction. I'm guessing that toxing can easily happen even if your rig is maticulously maintained.


No, it's not like that. I'm paranoid about my gear, not my ability to dive it. Toxing doesn't just happen- you have to DO or FAILTO DO something important in order to get yout P02 into the danger zone- assuming that your displays are showing the correct P02. They're machines. They do what they're told to do, as long as they're working correctly.

Sockmonkey wrote:[The level of complexity... in the gear but also in problem solving and increased need for situational awareness.... far surpasses what the average diver... even most tech divers... experience while under water. There has to be a reason why the CCR course is so intense?



You're right and wrong all at once, here. I think the level of complexity is overstated. They're pretty freaking simple, honestly. I know *exactly* how my Meg works. I have *no earthly idea* how to rebuild an OC regulator- a device that's FAR more complicated than any CCR. CCRs are simple, straightforward machines. Now- analyzing failure modes, and how to recover from them- THAT can get interesting. Yes, problem solving skills are good here. But, you make it sound like rocket surgery, and it just isn't *that* hard.
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."

Jeff Kruse
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:41 am

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Jeff Kruse » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:19 am

Jaksonbrown wrote:Is a rebreather the solution?


You asked for opinions and got them. Many people feel that OC is safer than RB's. We are not telling you that you do not have a choice or that we won’t let you do it. We are telling you it is probably more dangerous and think you shouldn’t do it and if you do you may get killed. Richard made it a little too personal though.

User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7759
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by CaptnJack » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:21 am

airsix wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:Oh good grief. There's plenty of evidence throughout this board and even this thread.


Richard, I respect your intellect far too much to let you get away with an "I read it on the Internet" defense. :rofl:


awww more than Laura? I'm touched buddy :luv: :stir:
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.

User avatar
Mattleycrue76
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:00 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Mattleycrue76 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:23 am

CaptnJack wrote:Actually it does, statistics amply demonstrate that deeper is more dangerous on OC. To some extent its true on CCRs as well, but they tend to be riskier in general anyway so its harder to draw a trend. The thread about the "deepest woman" record chasing death (on CCR) is salient to this topic. It was only last week on TDS. Also the deep air lala stories in Exley's "Caverns Measureless to Man" really open your eyes to perspectives on risk and "acceptability". I can loan you the book if you'd like. If your waffling on a dive one thing I suggest is running your ideas and concerns by your spouse/SO, that can really remind you (me, whomever) about "values".


I'll take you up on the book, I always love to read about diving.

My point was that wether my motivation is to "just go to 300 ft" or wether I'm going to 300 ft to look at the Admiral Sampson isn't going to determine how safe that 300ft dive is. And in recreational diving the value of the doing the dive is subjective entirely.
"The She-Ps didn't work for either one of us, however- we accidently glued one to Dan's cat, and the other one ended up in a DEA evidence locker somehow." - Joshua Smith

User avatar
Sockmonkey
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1467
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:43 am

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Sockmonkey » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:24 am

Joshua Smith wrote:You're right and wrong all at once, here.


I'll take it!

Ok... would you say that to become a skilled CCR diver you require more training and more hours on your machine than an OC diver?

-Eric
"I used to do this for fun, but now, I do it for nothing" -Not Joshua Smith

:eric: Hawaiian Seamonkey Blog

User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7759
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by CaptnJack » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:24 am

Joshua Smith wrote:You're right and wrong all at once, here. I think the level of complexity is overstated. They're pretty freaking simple, honestly. I know *exactly* how my Meg works. I have *no earthly idea* how to rebuild an OC regulator- a device that's FAR more complicated than any CCR. CCRs are simple, straightforward machines. Now- analyzing failure modes, and how to recover from them- THAT can get interesting. Yes, problem solving skills are good here. But, you make it sound like rocket surgery, and it just isn't *that* hard.


The mixing stick in my garage is even simpler and a couple of times its surprised me. I'm dense like that :tomnic:
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.

User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7759
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by CaptnJack » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:26 am

Mattleycrue76 wrote: And in recreational diving the value of the doing the dive is subjective entirely.


Yup although Dash clearly doesn't love, adore and value his Hollis
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.

User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10228
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Joshua Smith » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:34 am

CaptnJack wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:You're right and wrong all at once, here. I think the level of complexity is overstated. They're pretty freaking simple, honestly. I know *exactly* how my Meg works. I have *no earthly idea* how to rebuild an OC regulator- a device that's FAR more complicated than any CCR. CCRs are simple, straightforward machines. Now- analyzing failure modes, and how to recover from them- THAT can get interesting. Yes, problem solving skills are good here. But, you make it sound like rocket surgery, and it just isn't *that* hard.


The mixing stick in my garage is even simpler and a couple of times its surprised me. I'm dense like that :tomnic:


Point taken. Of course, I wear my CCR on my back, take it apart and put it back together all the time- heck, I exchange body fluids with it. I think it's fair to say I'm more "intimate" with it than you are w/ your mixing stick.
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."

User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7759
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by CaptnJack » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:36 am

Joshua Smith wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:The mixing stick in my garage is even simpler and a couple of times its surprised me. I'm dense like that :tomnic:


Point taken. Of course, I wear my CCR on my back, take it apart and put it back together all the time- heck, I exchange body fluids with it. I think it's fair to say I'm more "intimate" with it than you are w/ your mixing stick.


:luv: :luv: maybe not :rofl: :rofl:
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.

User avatar
Jaksonbrown
Amphibian
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:58 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Jaksonbrown » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:53 am

Jeff Kruse wrote:
Jaksonbrown wrote:Is a rebreather the solution?


You asked for opinions and got them. Many people feel that OC is safer than RB's. We are not telling you that you do not have a choice or that we won’t let you do it. We are telling you it is probably more dangerous and think you shouldn’t do it and if you do you may get killed. Richard made it a little too personal though.


I appreciate all the advice that everyone has given me. Very much so. Unfortunatly Jeff, you are falling into the same trap that Dick has fallen into. Your basing your opinion on what you read on this forum and have made wrongful conclusions based upon your assumptions.
I mean, if thats how your decision making process goes, so be it... but you will find out that in most cases, once you actually meet someone, that they are seldom the person you had imagined.
Go try internet dating and see what I mean.... Its amazing how that 350lb woman that showed up was 150lb hottie a few days ago on the internet.

Richard,..

I defy you to cite a logical example and conclusion of something I or someone else has said about me on this forum that leads you to your conclusions....

User avatar
spatman
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10881
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:06 am

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by spatman » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:59 am

Jaksonbrown wrote:Richard,..

I defy you to cite a logical example and conclusion of something I or someone else has said about me on this forum that leads you to your conclusions....



for f&^%ing out loud, as if this thread isn't enough of a damn TRAINWRECK?!?!

take it to PM or email or somewhere else, already.
Image

User avatar
Sounder
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7231
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 2:39 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Sounder » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:01 pm

Jaksonbrown wrote:I defy you to cite a logical example and conclusion of something I or someone else has said about me on this forum that leads you to your conclusions....


:uh:
GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!

User avatar
Jaksonbrown
Amphibian
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:58 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Jaksonbrown » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:03 pm

spatman wrote:
Jaksonbrown wrote:Richard,..

I defy you to cite a logical example and conclusion of something I or someone else has said about me on this forum that leads you to your conclusions....



for f&^%ing out loud, as if this thread isn't enough of a damn TRAINWRECK?!?!

take it to PM or email or somewhere else, already.


Is there an issue Spat? Im simply responding, politely, to Richards remarks.... Well within the TOS...
The comments made by Richard are not acceptable. He is calling me dangerous, irresponsible, ignorant, and that I do not maintain my gear properly, in public.. This potentially affects peoples views of me as a dive budddy. I wont stand for it. If he has valid reasons for his claims.. Out with them already... lets discuss it!
Sure.. call me a hot head, arrogant, maybe even eccentric, over zelous... but not dangerous or reckless.....
Last edited by Jaksonbrown on Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10228
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Rebreathers.....

Post by Joshua Smith » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:05 pm

Sockmonkey wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:You're right and wrong all at once, here.


I'll take it!

Ok... would you say that to become a skilled CCR diver you require more training and more hours on your machine than an OC diver?

-Eric



Sure. Learning OC was easy, for me. But it took me 50-75 hours on the Meg to get feeling happy again.
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."

Locked