The eternal question: what should I buy? (Ranting +Drysuits)

disappearinjon · Post by **disappearinjon** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:43 pm

[ Yes, I saw the recent thread on this over at http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12902 but my thread is different. Because I said so... ]

What I really hate about buying Scuba gear is the absence of data. Whenever I buy something, no matter how much research I do, I feel like it's a shot in the dark.

I had pretty good luck buying a new dive computer six months ago: I knew what features I needed that I didn't already have (Nitrox and backlight, to pick two features my old dive computer didn't have), what features I didn't want to do without (air integration, Mac support for downloading dive data), and what features were nice but not critical. And I got the Suunto Vyper Air. Waaaay more computer than I need -- today. But it does everything I need, and I'm pretty happy with it. Maybe I could have done with a less expensive toy -- I mean tool -- but I really didn't want to rebuy everything.

Then, ha, I discovered that my reg only had one HP port. Thus began the search for a new reg. After six agonizing months I ended up with the Sub Gear Cayman. I've only got one dive on it, but so far so good. But the research was hard-to-useless: only review I could find with any detail was Scuba Diving magazine. They really liked the Sub Gear Cayman, but they like everything. I did like the breathing machine tests. But not much else about the review was objective. And, darn it, like the computer I don't want to rebuy in a year or two -- I've had my old reg (and computer) since 2003 or so, when I did only tropical diving. (Also, they were a hand-me-down then. So free. Which was nice.)

But now it's worse: drysuit time. I have come to hate my current drysuit, passionately: it's not only the wrong size for me (way too big in some places, and too short in the arms besides), but it's thick neoprene. (It was also a hand-me-down and free, so I don't want to complain too much.) If I have enough weight to sink initially, I'm very overweighted at the bottom -- and half the time I still cork on my safety stop. I know that a lot of this is a question of practice as well as fit, and I don't want to blame the equipment, but it's driving me nuts. Also, I've started to hate the neoprene neck and wrist seals. Durability be damned, I want to be able to get in and out of my suit more easily.

Based on that. what's important to me in a drysuit? Three things, that I can think of: durability (don't want to rebuy, again -- are you sensing a theme?); little buoyancy change (meaning either shell or compressed/crushed neoprene); and the right sizing. Is there anything else I should be looking at as an important factor?

I don't want to spend more than I have to, but I do want to buy something that's going to last, and something easy enough to put on that I'll dive more, not less often. It's worth paying for both of those things. (But if I can find the right thing cheap, or used, I'd like that a lot... right now, my cost per dive for my equipment is way too high. The answer is clearly to dive more!)

Most of the reviews, again, are junk. The threads on some message boards seem to be not more than religious wars. Is there a rational way to make a decision here? It might be nice to do a whole bunch of dives in other people's suits, if I could find ones that fit...I feel like I'm in the dark... is there a "right way" to make this decision? Or should I retroactively justify whatever decision I happen to make?

Geek · Post by **Geek** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:46 pm

Ok, with all that in mind, Bare drysuits have lifetime warrenty on seams and workmanship, you can get them from 6mm-2mm or bi/trilam and there cheaper than most others on the market..... yes, I dive a bare

cardiver · Post by **cardiver** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:57 pm

My Bare should be in Tomorrow or Monday and I'll let you know my opinion of the suit after a few dives. I'm going from a Bare bi lam suit to a Bare 2mm suit.

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:10 pm

I feel your pain. A crappy drysuit is something to hate. FWIW, I'm very happy with my Diving Concepts Trilaminate suit. A lot of people I know love their DUI suits, but I just can't see spending that much money on one of those.

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:21 pm

Joshua Smith wrote:I feel your pain. A crappy drysuit is something to hate. FWIW, I'm very happy with my Diving Concepts Trilaminate suit. A lot of people I know love their DUI suits, but I just can't see spending that much money on one of those.

I'm definitely much happier in my DUI CF200 than my old DC trilam.

The DC trilam tended to wear at the glue seams and get pinhole leaks.

My CF200 has *no* aquaseal on it. It did need a zipper repair, which seems to be the achilles heel of DUI suits.

I've never owned a TLS350, but I'm amused by all the TLS owners around here a) fixing pinhole leaks and b) shivering.

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:28 pm

oh yeah, and:

disappearinjon wrote: Most of the reviews, again, are junk. The threads on some message boards seem to be not more than religious wars. Is there a rational way to make a decision here?

not really. its mac vs pc vs linux, iphone vs. android, intel vs. amd, vmware vs. xen, etc.

i care about:

- compressed/shell
- side pockets
- latex seals
- front zip
- suspenders
- knee pads (cove 2 low tide entries)
- minimal aquaseal maintenance
- warmth

i don't care about:

- drying time or weight
- cost
- what florida cave divers think

i wound up with a DUI CF200

YMMV.

spatman · Post by **spatman** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:36 pm

Jon, unless you can rent or borrow different suits to try out, it's a bit of a shot in the dark.

You'll hear a lot of "I love my suit" and "I hate that suit", but what it really comes down to is what *you* want in a suit.

Determine your budget and what style or type of suits interest you, and then do your best to go see them in person. If you actually try on different sizes, let alone dive one, you're ahead of the curve.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

LCF · Post by **LCF** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:13 pm

As Matt says, it's somewhat personal.

I have discovered, through owning three different kinds of suits, that several things are important to me, and several others are not so much. I do not like a very heavy suit, or one that is slow to dry, because I travel with them. I am VERY fussy about the location of the dump valve, because having one that's in the wrong place is a major PITA. I really like a suit that is truly self-donning, because it's just more convenient. And it's VERY easy to end up with a suit that you think fits well, but actually hampers your mobility to a significant degree.

I own a Fusion, because the mobility is superb, it's light, it dries fairly quickly, it's ALMOST self-donning (as it has gotten older, it has become more so), and the dump valve is a SiTech (also important) and in the right place. It's not the easiest suit to get in and out of (although I understand the newer ones are better) and there is no really perfect solution to the pockets. But I still like it better than the Diving Concepts compressed neoprene suit I had (heavy, stiff, hard to get in and out of, and dried slowly) or the Mobby's suit I had (limited mobility).

Depending on your size, you could join us for a dive in Peter's Fusion, if it interested you.

Sabre_Rider · Post by **Sabre_Rider** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:56 pm

I've had a Neoprene suit, (Harveys) and also hated it for some of the same reasons. I got lucky and picked up a Mobby's front entry armourshell suit a couple of years ago on ebay for $400. For me, it's great. It is completely self donning, and fits very well, no limits in movement and mobility at all. I am tall and skinny so maybe that helps the fit, but I couldn't be happier. Unlike others, that want to get out of thier suit asap, I stay in mine until the boat is all washed up, things are cleaned up, etc. it's that comfortable. Latex neck and wrist seals are a must in my book. I have glued on some cordura knee pads I made just for added protection but have had no issues with the suit at all. The weight issue I finally got straightened out, I was fine at the first of the dive, but at the end, it was a battle to stay down. I don't particularly like the 40 lbs of lead I carry, but I can hover at the end of the dive at a safety stop without anything to assist but watching my computer. Something I wish it had, was a couple of pockets, but that's minor. When I replace my suit down the road, I will definately get a front entry, and make sure it doesn't limit mobility. I agree with you on reviews, it seems everything is almost a crap shoot. And to some extent the same goes with asking others, what one person likes, another doesn't. Find something that fits you well, and have the features you like. As long as you are happy with it, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Good luck.

Penopolypants · Post by **Penopolypants** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:24 pm

To reiterate what everyone else has said, it's very personal.

I've had a shell suit, a compressed neoprene suit, and a fusion. There are things that I loved and things that I hated about all of them. I'm not sure there is a perfect suit out there. It really does come down to what you're looking for vs. what you're willing to compromise or give up.

It's much harder to try a suit on and dive it before you buy, but do so if you can. Paying for a $60-80 rental may seem expensive, but it's less expensive than buying a $2500 suit that you hate.

Bare, Whites, and DUI all have demo days throughout the year. Those are also great options to try out suits.

Good luck!

ljjames · Post by **ljjames** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:36 pm

DUI DEMO Day is coming up the end of this month... it's an AWESOME opportunity to try out the whole line of suits...

I'm with Lamont on the CF200 being my suit of choice, but i'm looking to demo their new FLS-extreme... Supposedly more puncture resistant than the TLS, but more comfortable than the CLX.

The only down side of the CF200 is its weight when wet for travel. Oof. if you are not careful and don't plan ahead it can put your luggage over limit on way home

other than that it's been my dream suit come true...

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:22 am

The most important feature in ANY suit is fit ... if it doesn't fit you properly, you'll hate it no matter what it is or how well else it suits your needs. Unless you have an off-the-rack body, the best way to assure a good fit is to get a custom (aka "made-to-measure) suit. I've owned Diving Concepts (Ultraflex Pro), Northern Diver (Cortex), DUI (CLX450 and TLS350), White's (Fusion), and Santi (eSpace). With the exception of the Fusion, all were custom-cut, all were front-entry trilaminate suits. All had things I liked and things I didn't like.

- Diving Concepts made me a really nice suit. The cut was exactly right, and the fit of the suit was damn near perfect. The only drawback to Diving Concepts is that their customer service sucks ... well, that's kind've an understatement, I meant to say their customer service really SUCKS!

- Northern Diver should get out of the drysuit business. My suit took four months to get here, and when it did it took only one quick look to discover that it was poorly done. I have no idea who this suit was built for, but it clearly wasn't me. I put the damn thing on it looked like a 10-year old in his daddy's overalls. The suit was made for someone at least 6 inches taller than me, and with shoulders not nearly as broad as mine. After some nerve-wracking wrangling with Northern Diver to prove to them that the measurements I submitted were really mine, they finally agreed to make me another suit. It was only marginally better. These folks make a pretty nice suit, but if you have to get one custom-made, shop elsewhere.

- Both my DUI suits were built to fit me quite well. The CLX450 is one of the most durable suits on the market, and the TLS350 is one of the most comfortable. Unfortunately, the Achilles heel of DUI is that their suits have an annoying tendency to develop leaks ... we jokingly say that DUI stands for "Dry Until Immersed" ... and it's not a very funny joke. That said, the TLS350 remains my most enjoyable suit to dive. It's so comfortable and fit me so well I was willing to put up with having to fix leaks on a fairly regular basis.

- The Fusion was inappropriately named ... they should've called it the Frustration. Now granted, mine was one of the early models and they've since addressed some of the things I most didn't like about it ... but I felt like I was paying for the pleasure of doing their product research for them. First and foremost, this suit just shouldn't be sold to fat people ... not only does it look horrible on a wide-body, but there's just no way you can make it fit properly. The concept behind the Fusion is that you get into this giant-sized plastic bag, and an elastic outer layer then pulls in all the extra material close to your body for a streamlined fit. Nice concept ... but in practice what it resulted in was a suit that was a struggle to get into and out of. And for those of us with "plus sized" forearms and calfs, the diameter of the inner core around those parts of your body were so restrictive that it eliminated the most important advantage of the suit, which was its flexibility. Truth be told, my TLS350 gave me much more freedom of motion than the Fusion ever did. Add on the fact that whenever you put anything in the pockets, they'd sag down around your ankles due to the stretch of the outer layer (I had the 1 mm neoprene "Tech" skin). To be fair, there are a lot of people who love this suit ... and the one thing they have in common is that they tend to have a slender or "normal" shaped body that the suit was designed to accommodate. Me ... I have never disliked a suit so much in my life.

- Finally, the Santi. I got the eSpace ... which is heavier and more durable than my TLS350 and less heavy than either of the Cordura suits I had previously. I love this suit. The cut was exactly what I asked for, with more than 100 dives on it so far it's not developed any leaks or noticeable wear, it's easy to get into and out of, and it's really quite comfortable. It took me a while to get used to the wrist seals ... which are the heaviest latex I've ever seen, and it was a real PITA to put on the dryglove rings ... but when those wear out I'll simply replace them with standard OS latex seals anyway. So far there is very little to complain about with this suit. I did get the 400G thinsulate undies with it, but honestly I haven't really used it much because I'm so happy with the Weezle I already had ... which I'll probably replace with another Weezle when this one wears out.

That's my experiences ... take them for what they're worth. Truth to tell, it's tough to give other people advice on scuba gear because what I love, you might hate, and vice versa. There's really a LOT of personal taste involved in how well it works out for you. But recognize that researching scuba equipment through dive magazines is an even more worthless exercise ... because they always talk up the equipment their advertisers sell, which might be completely wrong for you.

Best bet is always to talk to people who actually use the gear ... and whenever possible, try before you buy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

oregondiver · Post by **oregondiver** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:29 am

I spent more than a year dithering about my new suit purchase. I had a drysuit (Whites Search and Rescue trilam)that is 13 years old and it was getting some leaks that as soon as you repair one..another one pops up. Incessantly!

So I talked to many people I dove with over the year about what they liked or didn't like about their suit. I observed how much finagling they needed (ie contortions) to get in and out of their drysuits. I listened to them bitch about the pockets not staying glued, the leaky zippers, leaky seams, and manufacturer customer serivce.

I went to the big ole Dive show in Tacoma in May and even got to try on 3 different suits (would have been 5, but the vendors were busy talking to each other rather than customers with questions). I was impressed with the Hollis drysuit but that vendor was too busy to talk to me so I dont' know much about it. I wanted to stay loyal to WHites...but I didn't like how hard it was to put on the Whites Fusion. And I didn't like the "feel" (yes, very subjective) of the quality of their other styles.

One DUI suit I looked at, I found out I could get the bottom half of the suit in one fabric and the top in a different fabric. I think it merged the best of TLS and CFX(?) to create a suit that would have really fit my needs.

I ended up going with a Bare bilam suit. I didn't want neoprene because I am bouyant enuogh as is... About $1,000 cheaper than a DUI even with the additions I wanted (bellows pocket, built in cuff rings etc). I have about 10 dives on it so far. I really like the suit, I like the telscoping torso (I didn't want the crotch strap or to have to fold in the over folds on the hips of the DUI). I liked the warranty on the seams. I liked that they offered neoprene gaskets and heavy duty latex, no different costs. I like the built in knee pads (not implying I am accident prone...I just am). The only thing I don't like about my suit is that I am not quite strong enough to pull the zipper up over my shoulder to fully open it, and I have really long arms for a good reach...but alas, it takes muscle strength to go with the monkey arms.

One thing I have heard....DO NOT GET A CUSTOM BARE SUIT (ok, YMMV). I have heard horror stories from 3 NWDC members and they all had the same horrible experience with Bares' attempt at making a custom suit. Check out Tacoma Scuba, they seemed to have fantastic prices but I don't remember all the drysuit brands they carry.

LCF · Post by **LCF** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:35 am

Bob, you could take your paragraph about your Northern Diver suit, replace "Northern Diver" with "Diving Concepts" and you have my custom suit experience. It was so frustrating that I really don't ever want to buy a dry suit again, unless I can fit in a stock one. That's one of the advantages of the Fusion, for most of us.

cardiver · Post by **cardiver** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:41 am

LCF wrote:Bob, you could take your paragraph about your Northern Diver suit, replace "Northern Diver" with "Diving Concepts" and you have my custom suit experience. It was so frustrating that I really don't ever want to buy a dry suit again, unless I can fit in a stock one. That's one of the advantages of the Fusion, for most of us.

My first dry suit was a Harvey's 7mm custom suit. It fit perfectly, but 7mm in a dry suit is hot!

ljjames · Post by **ljjames** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:48 am

cardiver wrote:
LCF wrote:Bob, you could take your paragraph about your Northern Diver suit, replace "Northern Diver" with "Diving Concepts" and you have my custom suit experience. It was so frustrating that I really don't ever want to buy a dry suit again, unless I can fit in a stock one. That's one of the advantages of the Fusion, for most of us.
My first dry suit was a Harvey's 7mm custom suit. It fit perfectly, but 7mm in a dry suit is hot!

on the surface to 90'.

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:26 am

oregondiver wrote: The only thing I don't like about my suit is that I am not quite strong enough to pull the zipper up over my shoulder to fully open it, and I have really long arms for a good reach...but alas, it takes muscle strength to go with the monkey arms.

This, too, shall pass ... dry zippers are always stiff when new ... they loosen up with use. Give it another 10-20 dives and your problem will resolve itself ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Blaiz · Post by **Blaiz** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:00 pm

Grateful Diver wrote:
oregondiver wrote: The only thing I don't like about my suit is that I am not quite strong enough to pull the zipper up over my shoulder to fully open it, and I have really long arms for a good reach...but alas, it takes muscle strength to go with the monkey arms.
This, too, shall pass ... dry zippers are always stiff when new ... they loosen up with use. Give it another 10-20 dives and your problem will resolve itself ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You're my new hero, thanks Bob!

oregondiver · Post by **oregondiver** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:29 pm

Blaiz wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:
oregondiver wrote: The only thing I don't like about my suit is that I am not quite strong enough to pull the zipper up over my shoulder to fully open it, and I have really long arms for a good reach...but alas, it takes muscle strength to go with the monkey arms.
This, too, shall pass ... dry zippers are always stiff when new ... they loosen up with use. Give it another 10-20 dives and your problem will resolve itself ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
You're my new hero, thanks Bob!

No...he's MY bestest frriend!

John Rawlings · Post by **John Rawlings** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:12 pm

This may be old news to some of you, but I just found out that there will be a DUI Dog-Days Rally and suit try-out at Mukilteo Lighthouse Park on August 28th and 29th.

http://www.dui-online.com/dog_main.html

http://www.dui-online.com/2010_rally_pa ... sort=10Muk

It's a great opportunity to try out their line of drys-suits if you're trying to decide on which suit to buy....or start saving up for!

- John

FlyinV · Post by **FlyinV** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:09 pm

On buying gear -- I guess I got lucky -- I purchased all my main gear (reg, bcd, drysuit) thru my LDS and I am 100% completely happy with it after about 100 dives. They did a great job making sure I got quality equipment that works perfectly in our environment.

So maybe ask your LDS for some recommendations on what drysuit to buy and maybe get them to measure you so you know your getting the right size.

I went to the big ole Dive show in Tacoma in May and even got to try on 3 different suits (would have been 5, but the vendors were busy talking to each other rather than customers with questions).

YES! I had the same problem at a couple booths -- I booth a friend and I stood for 10 minutes to see if the worker would say hello and she never did.... Too busy grab assing with some other vendor.

My company does a few tradeshows a year. I would fire my employees if they worked a show like that and ignored booth visitors like I experienced.

disappearinjon · Post by **disappearinjon** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:09 pm

John Rawlings wrote:This may be old news to some of you, but I just found out that there will be a DUI Dog-Days Rally and suit try-out at Mukilteo Lighthouse Park on August 28th and 29th.

http://www.dui-online.com/dog_main.html

http://www.dui-online.com/2010_rally_pa ... sort=10Muk

It's a great opportunity to try out their line of drys-suits if you're trying to decide on which suit to buy....or start saving up for!

As of yesterday, I've signed up for this event. I was hoping to spend a bit less on a drysuit than I'm likely to with DUI, but Lamont's criteria are fairly similar to my own, so his conclusion is something I'm bearing in mind...

Northwest Dive Club