And boom goes the scooter dynamite. (TBM)

[BDub]

Oh and sometimes that extra mile can get you home instead of your buddy towing you back :P considering 1mile at 150fpm is 35 extra minutes of run time.

Then build one for Bdub please!

Oh puh-leeze :queenliz:





It was just shy of 30 minutes

Which time?

All. I averaged

[pensacoladiver]

But 15% can mean a mile or so with a high wattage battery.

Yes but so what? Are you going to try and get him to make you one? Don't forget you'll get tired and have to swap out drivers to maintain this theoretical advantage long before you run out of battery.

Hey man, down here in Florida where we do 4 tank boat dives, we need all the battery power we can get.

I in your general direction

Come on down and enjoy some of those 4 tank days. I even got free gas for ya now.

[pensacoladiver]

Dash? With high energy batteries? Soldering? *shudder*

And he has been soldering and charging them at my house.

Guess I need to make sure my insurance is up to date.

[CaptnJack]

But 15% can mean a mile or so with a high wattage battery.

Yes but so what? Are you going to try and get him to make you one? Don't forget you'll get tired and have to swap out drivers to maintain this theoretical advantage long before you run out of battery.

Hey man, down here in Florida where we do 4 tank boat dives, we need all the battery power we can get.

I in your general direction

Come on down and enjoy some of those 4 tank days. I even got free gas for ya now.

Cool Melody and I might just hit you up for this in March or April-ish

[BASSMAN]

I would like to see the price comparison

[pensacoladiver]

But 15% can mean a mile or so with a high wattage battery.

Yes but so what? Are you going to try and get him to make you one? Don't forget you'll get tired and have to swap out drivers to maintain this theoretical advantage long before you run out of battery.

Hey man, down here in Florida where we do 4 tank boat dives, we need all the battery power we can get.

I in your general direction

Come on down and enjoy some of those 4 tank days. I even got free gas for ya now.

Cool Melody and I might just hit you up for this in March or April-ish

That's about the time the winds start to die down again... good thing. All you gotta do is let me know a date and I'll have the vacation time lined up.

But I have to warn you, I have been stalking your posts on TDS about compressors, especially filtration for the P21's. I might end up picking your brain to get me up and running with a repackable filter cartridge for the Triplex.

Even got a place for you to stay as long as you don't mind your own room with a King sized bed.

[Raydar]

Personally, I rarely go above speed 5 on the Cuda. Prolongs battery life, dive length, and I don't come out of the water with my nads up near my belly button.

They must be those special lightweight ones intead of the heavy duty brass ones huh?

Wife was complaining that her purse was too heavy.

[Dusty2]

The below is only my personal belief and does not reflect the views or opinions of my employer.

Some surprising data, some not so surprising.

I do like his comment/editorial regarding the 'arms race'.

I'd love to see divers get away from this emphasis on top speed. Top speed is a bragging point, but it's hard on the machine, the diver, and it costs money. This wouldn't be a problem, except divers are wusses and cheap to boot.

It would be great if we could concentrate more towards efficiency at higher speeds. Make the new cruise speed 200 fpm instead of 150 fpm.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of scooter drivers look at the top speed as the end-all/be-all of scooter performance. The Cuda, Genesis, and Magnus are all in the upper 200 fpm range. Gonna let you in on a secret though. It's not fun to ride a scooter at those speeds for more than a couple minutes.

Personally, I rarely go above speed 5 on the Cuda. Prolongs battery life, dive length, and I don't come out of the water with my nads up near my belly button.

Bottom line, scooter efficiency is the key. Efficient scooters are smaller, lighter, and cheaper. And smaller, lighter, and cheaper is what divers are/should be asking for.

Yes, you might then have a scooter that tops out at 200 fpm, but it can do it for hours.

I have to agree, Right now it's all about an elite group with deep pockets that want to go as fast and as long as they can. What about the other 90% or so that can't afford to drop 4 to 6 grand for a sports car and are looking for a good well built scooter that can do that 150 fpm for a couple of hours. I know that the majority of owners out there can afford the big bucks but what about the rest of us? There is a huge gap in the market. the assorted junk for under a thousand and all the contenders in the Tahoe test. Note that no scooter under about 4 grand even submitted a rig for testing. SAD that they don't have a economy class for testing. It will never be a true test of all dive scooters simply because the lower priced units can not compete with the Ferrari class rigs and thus don't bother to show.

The old adage still applies, Speed costs, How fast do you want to go?

[diverden]

This year's test emphasized models that were not tested before, i.e. something "new." I'm not really sure what that meant. On some it was a new prop. On others like the Gavin, I'm not sure if there has been any Gavin enhancement in 15 years. Part of the problem is that many manufacturers are simply not doing anything new or can't be bothered to even send a unit to the testing ground. Part of the reason behind that is the lower end model's marketing lies would be proven as lies. Like the SeeDoo that claims to do 300 ft/min.

I think the main problem is battery. These things just use a lot of power, even the efficient ones which for 2-3 hours of burn time you have to have a lithium chemistry. But lithium scooters are new. Lithium is newish and expensive. New + expensive + a lot of R & D = expensive. You have to admit, "smaller + lighter" does NOT equal cheaper. Is a really small, efficient laptop computer cheaper? Nope. That submerge Minus is a really nice little scooter, but $5000. This is where I was when I was looking at a lithium DiveX scooter. The Sierra would go for half a day but $5500 vs $7000? Might as well buy the Ferrari.

Reminds me of 5 years ago when I wanted to buy an electric car. Choices were an over-priced, street legal, golf cart for $20,000 a Tesla at > $100,000.

[Raydar]

I have to agree, Right now it's all about an elite group with deep pockets that want to go as fast and as long as they can. What about the other 90% or so that can't afford to drop 4 to 6 grand for a sports car and are looking for a good well built scooter that can do that 150 fpm for a couple of hours. I know that the majority of owners out there can afford the big bucks but what about the rest of us? There is a huge gap in the market. the assorted junk for under a thousand and all the contenders in the Tahoe test. Note that no scooter under about 4 grand even submitted a rig for testing. SAD that they don't have a economy class for testing. It will never be a true test of all dive scooters simply because the lower priced units can not compete with the Ferrari class rigs and thus don't bother to show.

The old adage still applies, Speed costs, How fast do you want to go?

As usual, the rambling below doesn't represent anything official from me or my employer.

You bring up a number of valid points and I could pontificate for a while.

Several quickie things before I get back to work.

1. There is a trickle down effect. Look how many Sierras/Gavins/etc are on the market now due to the introduction of the Cuda and other advanced scooters. 3 years ago, you had your choice of beat to crap Makos and Teknas or you could make the jump to ~$3k for a used Sierra/Gavin/SS. Now, you don't have to look to hard to find a decent scooter for sub-$2k used.

2. There's the other adage: "High performance, high quality, or low price. Pick any two."

I'm constantly looking at how to make scooters more economical. Granted, I'm looking at how to make them cheaper to build, but that directly translates to cheaper prices. Unfortunately, as cliche'd as it is, quality doesn't come cheap and there are some things I just can't get any cheaper - motors, controllers, batteries, aluminum, and labor just off the top of my head. Then there's R&D.

Contributing is 'economy of scale'. We just don't sell enough scooters to get us any better pricing. We're a tiny niche market. Even if we could sell 1000 scooters a year, we'd still be small.

Bottom line, unless there's a major paradigm shift, you're not going to see a quality scooter in the $1000-2000 price range new. If you do, I'd start to look and see where they are cutting corners. Maybe in materials or maybe they're subsidizing the sales to gain market share.

(Btw, I believe the Halcyon R-14 retails for under $3k. Also, IMO, the performance reflects the compromises needed to achieve this.)

3. A reason why some manufacturers may not show up is because they know their performance claims are BS. (No, I'm not accusing anybody or implying any knowledge.) I'm always amused by the claims of the 'Ebay special' scooters. There is no chance in hell that a scooter with 17lbs of thrust, 144Wh battery, and 350 watt power consumption is going to come anywhere near 4.2 mph and/or 90 minutes burntime.

Granted, that is an extreme example. But before the TBM, there wasn't anybody calling manufacturers on their data. Back in the day when I had a Gavin shortbody, it was claimed that they'd do 200fpm in doubles and had 50-ish lbs of thrust. Well, my Gavin was faster than almost everybody else's, however, it tested out in the 190-ish range in singles and had only ~40 lbs of thrust.

To finish up something that ended up longer than I intended, you're more than welcome to design, build, and market your ideal scooter for that mid-range price. *grin*

[Dusty2]

Agreed, The big anchor on scooter development as well as electric cars and allot of other things electronic is battery technology. Lithium is way expensive and pretty much controlled by the Chinese as are most of the rare earth minerals being explored. Most of the scooters out there are quite similar and many haven't changed dramatically in years.

Believe me I know about the quality ver. price thing. Good components don't come cheap. Especially when you have to by in small quantities.

[Raydar]

Agreed, The big anchor on scooter development as well as electric cars and allot of other things electronic is battery technology. Lithium is way expensive and pretty much controlled by the Chinese as are most of the rare earth minerals being explored. Most of the scooters out there are quite similar and many haven't changed dramatically in years.

Don't forget the transport restrictions on lithium. :angry:

Hopefully, with the new lithium chemistries coming out, there will be revisions of the transport regs. However, being that there have been 2 747 freighters lost in the past 1.5 years due to lithium fires on board (plus another crash, I think?), freight companies aren't in a big hurry to risk more $300M planes.

If you're staying local or driving to your diving destination, lithium is the way to go (if you can afford it.) However, if you're flying, NiMH is still the best choice for price, weights, and energy density.

[Dashrynn]

I think the main problem is battery. These things just use a lot of power, even the efficient ones which for 2-3 hours of burn time you have to have a lithium chemistry. But lithium scooters are new. Lithium is newish and expensive. New + expensive + a lot of R & D = expensive..

To be honest I'm surprised lithium batteries haven't been utilized in scooters sooner, only thing I could logically deduce is price and the ever dreaded exploding battery (which lithium has became safer since more R&D) . Of course that is considering lithium polymer batteries have been out since 1996 and how technology has advanced so much.

[Raydar]

To be honest I'm surprised lithium batteries haven't been utilized in scooters sooner, only thing I could logically deduce is price and the ever dreaded exploding battery (which lithium has became safer since more R&D) . Of course that is considering lithium polymer batteries have been out since 1996 and how technology has advanced so much.

Price and regulations

Lithium may be becoming safer. However, more and more devices are using the batteries which increase the potential for 'Oopsies'. The DOT and IATA have responded to such incidents with stricter testing regimes and regulations.

It's one thing if a iPhone battery decides to catch fire. It's another thing entirely if a 1Kw battery decides to dump all of its energy in a fiery act of self-destruction.

I've seen what a little lithium pack will do when it goes. No desire to see a big pack let go, particularly if it's sitting near something that I value.

If a person is thinking of getting involved with lithium batteries, I would suggest reading up on DOT/IATA transport regs and the UN 38.3 testing requirements.

[pensacoladiver]

I have to agree, Right now it's all about an elite group with deep pockets that want to go as fast and as long as they can. What about the other 90% or so that can't afford to drop 4 to 6 grand for a sports car and are looking for a good well built scooter that can do that 150 fpm for a couple of hours. I know that the majority of owners out there can afford the big bucks but what about the rest of us? There is a huge gap in the market. the assorted junk for under a thousand and all the contenders in the Tahoe test. Note that no scooter under about 4 grand even submitted a rig for testing. SAD that they don't have a economy class for testing. It will never be a true test of all dive scooters simply because the lower priced units can not compete with the Ferrari class rigs and thus don't bother to show.

I certainly would not call myself elite by any stretch of the imagination. In about 2 weeks, I will be taking possession of one of the TBM participants top end scooters.

For me, it has nothing to do with "speed" and everything to do with reliable burn time. I am currently using my Standard Sierra to run about a half mile offshore. I run it in first gear to conserve battery power. Takes me somewhere around 22 minutes to get where I need to go. That equates to 22 minutes back in also. That leave me about 15 minutes of usable trigger time out where I want to be, which is not a whole lot.

If I accurately track my trigger time, those numbers will get me back to shore just before the battery protection kicks in, stopping the scooter. There is only 1 thing worse than doing a long shore dive without a scooter and that is towing a dead scooter back in from a long shore dive.

Running at a slow speed, which I do as I am looking for stuff such as lobsters, with the scooter I am about to buy, I will not even use a third of the battery to run the same profile. That means I can run a whole lot longer than 15 minutes out on the reef looking for my treasure.

As was stated earlier, previous years of TBM testing, tested some of the exceptional mid range scooters. The Standard Sierra is an awesome scooter and I have recently seen a post with a guy selling his for $1900

As TBM testing comes out of pocket for the participants doing the testing, it does not make fiscal sense in my mind to go back and test scooters that have already been tested.

Also as stated, the makers of the "pool toys" just aren't going to show up. There is no way they can compete and the "truth" being posted by an independent study would absolutely kill their marketing campaign. A good number of divers have no idea what "300 feet per minute" underwater is and these companies count on that. Hell, look at how many divers in the PNW talk about how they were diving in 5 knots current... and swimming against it. hahaha. To be fair though, I hear it a lot here too... "Man there was at least 4 knots of current on that wreck", when in reality, it was under 2.

If you are wanting a kick ass mid grade scooter that will pull you along, I am selling my Sierra with 2 batteries, spares kit, standard prop and X prop for 2k.