Got called an idiot for selling my pony!

[Grateful Diver]

The only reason I would dive with a pony bottle is if, I were to dive Solo.
But being a "Chatty Kathy" such as myself, I don't see any reason to dive Solo.
Who would I have to, talk about all of the cool stuff I just saw?

I don't think you're as chatty as I am, Keith ... when I dive solo I talk to myself. And how do you think I get the fish to pose for me ??? I sweet-talk to 'em.

As for talking about all the cool stuff, that's what NWDC is for.

Speaking of cool stuff ... last night I was out with a student at Redondo ... just off the north beach in 20 feet of water. He's practicing helicopter kicks. Vis was not very good, so I swam around behind to watch what his fins were doing. Just as I got back there, his fins passed over this big circular lump in the sand ... looked kinda familiar ... so I got his attention and told him to turn around and look at it. A coupla minutes later, this 6-7 foot long octopus woke up and crawled away.

Had me wishing I had a camera ... and Mike told me it was the first one he'd ever seen out in the open like that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Norris]

I carry a pony on deep (over 100'fsw) dives and when solo diving. It was one of those questions that I had in my head where the answer was simply, "redundancy".
I trust that my buddy, with whom I have spoken to and discussed how I will give them air, and recieve air, prior to the dive, will do everything within their power to help me should I have a regulator incident. However; should I have a malfunction and not realize it until I have breathed OUT and am trying to take a breath in, I figure there is a very small window of time before my body will need to take that breath in. If there is ANY confusion, communication issues, or distance between us, all become variables for disaster.

This works for me as I tend to dive with divers from all different agencies. Where a Trained Team diver may be a little more able to handle the situation due to drills and practice, I don't always know how a new friend/diver handles something like an OOA.
If you don't solo dive and don't plan to, then I certainly agree with your decision. There are many divers that never intend to dive alone, and may never have the need for redundant air as their buddy plays that role.

Oh yeah and don't give those idiots another penny. People that try and bully or belittle others to think they way do make me ill to my stomach. I hope that doesnt happen at my LDS as I would have to go elsewhere and damn this place is convenient..

[Jeff Pack]

I told my wife she couldnt have a pony, and she called me an idiot...

[spatman]

I carry a pony on deep (over 100'fsw) dives and when solo diving. It was one of those questions that I had in my head where the answer was simply, "redundancy".

I've seen you carry your pony on dives less than 100'. Does that mean you don't trust me as a buddy?

[Grateful Diver]

I don't use a pony ... when I feel the need for redundancy I prefer a pair of horses ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[60south]

I told my wife she couldnt have a pony, and she called me an idiot...

So... redundancy... Hijack in progress...

Often I have oodles of extra gas in a single 130 for the shallow-ish dives I'm doing. But I still feel that redundancy is an important consideration.

I'm thinking of getting an H-valve to have redundant 1st stages without carrying a pony or doubles. I've used H-valves before (in freezing water) and I liked them, but they seem to have fallen out of fashion.

Anybody here use H-valves or Y-valves? Why or why not?

Edit: the y-valves I've seen have pathetic, tiny little knobs. I wouldn't want that when wearing thick drysuit gloves. H-valves with full sized knobs seem like a better route.

[Beefcake]

I don't think you're an idiot, but I'm planning to buy a pony soon. Our visibility in the bays on the Oregon coast is so poor that we often end up "Same Ocean" diving. We try to keep an idea where each other are, but if we separate by more than a few feet to hunt, chase crabs, or look at something, we often lose sight of each other. I don't have enough training or dives to say that I'm competent enough to dive solo; it just seems to happen (maybe I need different buddies?), so I've set my mind to being self-sufficient. Air redundancy will be the first step toward this goal.

[spatman]

I don't use a pony ... when I feel the need for redundancy I prefer a pair of horses ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You did dive with your buddy "Al" before you got that pair of horses...

[Joshua Smith]

Eh. I get tired of the same old arguments. I don't care how people dive, I just don't appreciate nonconstructive criticism over how I choose to dive. I took flack- right here on NWDC- for diving with a pony. Back then, it irritated me. These days, I don't care much what people I don't dive with think about how I dive. As long as you have a realistic understanding of how much gas is actually in your pony, and practice using it enough to be proficient with it in an actual emergency, there's no down side to diving one. Unless you don't want to dive one, which is also fine. Neither choice makes you an "idiot."

[CaptnJack]

I'm thinking of getting an H-valve to have redundant 1st stages without carrying a pony or doubles. I've used H-valves before (in freezing water) and I liked them, but they seem to have fallen out of fashion.

Anybody here use H-valves or Y-valves? Why or why not?

Edit: the y-valves I've seen have pathetic, tiny little knobs. I wouldn't want that when wearing thick drysuit gloves. H-valves with full sized knobs seem like a better route.

Y valves really aren't made anymore although you can find the Beuchats around used. These have the benefit of knobs oriented like you're used to.

For those of use diving doubles, H valves seem like alot of crapola for little benefit. You still only have one neck oring and one burst disk. And you add the orings between the main valve and the H.

Doubles are much more useful than either. When something goes "bang" even the most proficient valve turner is going to lose a chunk of gas - possibly all of it. Although the real risk IMHO is not a reg suddenly ceasing to work or a burst disk ruptering UW. Its getting distracted by some other issue and using your gas up in the first place.

[LCF]

by Grateful Diver » Wed May 02, 2012 6:00 pm

I don't use a pony ... when I feel the need for redundancy I prefer a pair of horses ...

I don't know, Bob. The last time I remember, you were having trouble managing ONE horse . . .

[Grateful Diver]

by Grateful Diver » Wed May 02, 2012 6:00 pm

I don't use a pony ... when I feel the need for redundancy I prefer a pair of horses ...

I don't know, Bob. The last time I remember, you were having trouble managing ONE horse . . .

Yabbut that horse had a mind of its own ... and a downright evil sense of humor ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Dashrynn]

Personally, I won't dive without one but no your not an idiot. It's your choice to make not theirs. Having said that though using the premis that you have never needed it is a bit flakey. I have never needed a safety belt but I always wear one. I have never needed a helmet when ridding but you would be crazy mot to wear one. It is better to have and never need than to need and not have.

In that logic: Why not wear a harness while driving? And a helmet? Why don't we have seatbelts on motorcycles? Do we "NEED it" is applied to my life at all angles, constantly. Point is, do we need to add complication to solve a potential problem that can be solved by using our available resources (buddy diving, gas management, proper preventive maintenance)?

[Domer Down]

Chris,

When we dive together, you probably noticed that I always attach a 13 cubic ft pony and reg to my tank. I always dive this way as a matter of choice, because I like the redundancy and additional safety factor.

As far as agency requirements, PADI requires the use of a pony or similar redundant system for the Self-Reliant Diver specialty course. This is not a "solo" diving course, but does address many situations where divers can find themselves alone in the water (hunting, photographing, Divemasters setting the flag or playing Rescue Class victim, etc.). Divers eligible for this class need a minimum of 100 dives.

I myself also require a redundant air system when I teach the Deep Diver specialty. This is not a PADI requirement, but is my own addition.

As far as how you decide to dive, it is perfectly acceptable for you to configure with a single tank and two regulators to go along with your buddy. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. You'll never hear that kind of talk where I hang out. We have frank discussions and disagreements, but reasonable decisions about gear configurations are not fair game for derision.

[Joshua Smith]

Personally, I won't dive without one but no your not an idiot. It's your choice to make not theirs. Having said that though using the premis that you have never needed it is a bit flakey. I have never needed a safety belt but I always wear one. I have never needed a helmet when ridding but you would be crazy mot to wear one. It is better to have and never need than to need and not have.

In that logic: Why not wear a harness while driving? And a helmet? Why don't we have seatbelts on motorcycles? Do we "NEED it" is applied to my life at all angles, constantly. Point is, do we need to add complication to solve a potential problem that can be solved by using our available resources (buddy diving, gas management, proper preventive maintenance)?

Because its still a free world, where people can make their own choices. Maybe someone wants to solo, or maybe someone doesn't have reliable buddies, or maybe they just want to have extra gas in a completely seperate, maybe donateable container. I know that it gave me a lot of peace of mind when I was new, and diving with random buddies I didn't know very well.

[lamont]

thing with pony bottles is that if you just strap another tank to you, it doesn't necessarily give you any additional redundancy and can give you a false sense of confidence and not be there when you really need it.

a pony bottle mounted behind you where you can't reach the valve, without an SPG and with a regulator in a typical octo-holder is going to be incredibly unreliable.

here's a few questions:

- if it has a tank neck leak, how are you going to notice that?
- if the second stage starts to free flow, how are you going to notice that?
- if you lose gas on the dive can you check the pressure?
- if you forget to turn the valve on at the surface can you manipulate it at depth?
- if you can manipulate it at depth, do you dive it charged and on, or leave it off?
- if you leave it off, how fast can you deploy the regulator and turn the valve on?
- quick-releases always release when you don't want them to, and never release when you really need them -- how do you get the second stage from where its parked into your mouth reliably without it coming free on the dive?

there's various configs of pony bottles that are better or worse in their answers to those questions. rigging it like a techdiver's stage or deco bottle is one of the better ones. you can back mount it and run it to a necklace which probably works better for deploying it, but makes it harder to bubble check the tank.

the other pieces of mental gear that should be in place:

- if you dive with a pony bottle do you start making the pony part of the plan, or do you also reserve rock bottom in your backgas?
- do you check that you can deploy and breathe off of the reg at the start of every dive?

possibly there's other points that i've missed as well, those are just off the top of my head...

[Nwbrewer]

I always attach a 13 cubic ft pony and reg to my tank. I always dive this way as a matter of choice, because I like the redundancy and additional safety factor.
...
I myself also require a redundant air system when I teach the Deep Diver specialty. This is not a PADI requirement, but is my own addition.

Just curious about this statement. Do you use a bigger pony for the Deep Diver class?

[Dashrynn]

Personally, I won't dive without one but no your not an idiot. It's your choice to make not theirs. Having said that though using the premis that you have never needed it is a bit flakey. I have never needed a safety belt but I always wear one. I have never needed a helmet when ridding but you would be crazy mot to wear one. It is better to have and never need than to need and not have.

In that logic: Why not wear a harness while driving? And a helmet? Why don't we have seatbelts on motorcycles? Do we "NEED it" is applied to my life at all angles, constantly. Point is, do we need to add complication to solve a potential problem that can be solved by using our available resources (buddy diving, gas management, proper preventive maintenance)?

Because its still a free world, where people can make their own choices. Maybe someone wants to solo, or maybe someone doesn't have reliable buddies, or maybe they just want to have extra gas in a completely seperate, maybe donateable container. I know that it gave me a lot of peace of mind when I was new, and diving with random buddies I didn't know very well.

Define freedom. But I agree with you, its still a semi free world. If you want to go diving in your birthday suit, you can. Just tell me first so I can bring the camera.

[LCF]

What it boils down to is that diving is an activity that involves risk, and we all have to assess and manage that risk. One of the risks of diving is being underwater with no breathing gas. Although the vast majority of such incidents involve poor planning and/or poor monitoring on the part of the diver (which is certainly fixable without changing one's gear) there are isolated incidents of catastrophic gear failure, and one of them -- a freeflow -- is more likely in our cold water.

So, if you're worried about a sudden, unstoppable gas loss, how do you manage that risk? There are really three approaches: You can keep your dives shallow enough that you can always get to the surface before the tank runs out. You can provide yourself with a redundant gas supply, whether that is a set of doubles or a pony bottle. Or you can improve the quality of your buddies. The solutions are not mutually exclusive; for example, diving in extremely cold water, one might want both self-redundancy AND reliable buddies. Diving with unknown buddies, or beginners, one might want both shallow water and redundancy.

Any redundant system has to be analyzed the way Lamont did it -- Is it reliable? Can I troubleshoot it? Is it ADEQUATE? (Which gets back to the question about the 13 cf pony bottle.) Double tanks, for example, aren't true redundancy unless you can reach your valves and manipulate them quickly.

If I did a lot of travel, or my situation forced me to do a lot of diving with instabuddies, I'd almost certainly want redundancy. Luckily, I have doubles at my disposal, but for some entries they wouldn't be my strategy of choice, and a slung bottle might be better.

It's all risk management, and there are no perfect answers.

[Linedog]

Redundancy and peace of mind are the phrases I am reading the most. What if your pony/doubles have issue at depth? Do we start carrying 2 ponies or a pony on doubles? A 13 on a 19 on a 40 on a 80, where does it end? For me it ends when I feel I can dive safely, return to the surface unharmed and be able to render aid to my buddy if needed. That said, perhaps I could use a rescue class or two so I can be a better buddy. The debate in the LDS was spirited to say the least, but when the unknown to me rep from DUI chimed in with at least I know I'm gonna die when I run outta air, didn't sit well with me. Diving is not dangerous its serious, we all know that, that's why we all do what we as individuals feel is necessary to minimize said risk. I love a good debate and a good thread, thank you all. I guess I should get some raft building training now.

[Domer Down]

Domer Down wrote: I always attach a 13 cubic ft pony and reg to my tank. I always dive this way as a matter of choice, because I like the redundancy and additional safety factor.
...
I myself also require a redundant air system when I teach the Deep Diver specialty. This is not a PADI requirement, but is my own addition.


Just curious about this statement. Do you use a bigger pony for the Deep Diver class?

I should have expanded my statement. I use a 13 cubic ft pony for every dive, except when I'm going below 100 feet (as in teaching Deep) or going into deco (when it's not recreational scuba anymore and I use completely different gear). I like the small pony because it is not much extra weight and tucks in neatly next to my 119. Between teaching classes and fun dives with my students, a full 75% of my dives are with beginners. We are in 60 feet of water or less. I consider myself to be self-reliant on these dives. While keeping an eagle eye on the beginners, I like the comfort of knowing that I have the option to use my pony if I have an equipment failure. I'm not hesitant to rely on my beginner buddies for help if I should need it, because offering assistance is part of their training. I just want multiple options to handle any problems if they arise.

For the Deep class, I recommend a 19 cubic ft bottle. My philosophy is to strap on this bottle, then forget about it for gas management planning. The dive is planned with enough gas for a buddy team to safely return to the surface, with a safety stop, while alternate air sharing. The pony is there as another option and an additional safety factor.

Years ago I had a button gauge on top of my first stage for my pony, but soon came to realize the wisdom of running a hose and an analog gauge and clip it to my BCD. I run with the tank turned on and the reg tucked under my right arm, right above my alternate air source. The pony reg and alt air are clearly marked differently, and I explain this to my buddy in the predive check. I also tell them that in the event of an OOA emergency, they are welcome to take whichever of these regs is most convenient. I'm not going to argue with them during that situation. After they are breathing and calmed down, we'll work out what air to breathe and how to get to the surface.

I have so many tanks stored in my basement that my wife swears that they mate like bunnies and produce pony and stage bottles.

[diverden]

Something left out of this thread so far: One should always take a couple of breaths off every gas supply underwater as part of the pre-dive check. I realized I was regularly forgetting about this. For obvious reasons, carrying a broken gas supply is worse than not carrying one at all.

[diverden]

Derp. Nevermind... just saw Lamont's post. I guess it was worth repeating.

Something left out of this thread so far: One should always take a couple of breaths off every gas supply underwater as part of the pre-dive check. I realized I was regularly forgetting about this. For obvious reasons, carrying a broken gas supply is worse than not carrying one at all.

[ArcticDiver]

Something left out of this thread so far: One should always take a couple of breaths off every gas supply underwater as part of the pre-dive check. I realized I was regularly forgetting about this. For obvious reasons, carrying a broken gas supply is worse than not carrying one at all.

Triggers a memory: More than once, including classes where almost all work was in an overhead environment, I've been breathing off my secondary regulator or second cylinder, or both and had other divers, including instructors, swim up to ask what I was doing. I gave them a brief sign language statement. Back on the surface we discussed it in more detail. Amazing how many people dive "redundant" kit but never practice using it. Or, if they do, it is a cursory review at the beginning of the dive. Me? If I dive it I use it. That includes cylinders, masks, knives, whatever. Oh yes, I have improved my performance as well. I am sure to let everyone know I will be using backup kit. Even then most forget.

[Jeff Pack]

Bob taught me as part of pre dive, to check both my main reg and Alt air underwater, to make sure they work, before dropping. Now if I could just regularly remember to clear my ears as well... :(