Batteries 18650

Need advice on recreational gear configurations? Look no further than this equipment forum.
User avatar
sitkadiver
Submariner
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by sitkadiver » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:54 am

I've been using an 18650 powered H2O Doc light for a couple years now(maybe 3 yrs. ???) and I have nad no safety issues at all with the 18650's. The only time I had one smoke is when I went at a dead cell with some channel locks to see what made it tick.... Definately not the batteries fault.

The 18650's I have were all ordered from E-Bay. This is due to two factors:

1. Shipping cost from the lower 48 to Alaska is fairly high, and shipping dircet from Communist Red China was cheaper. If someone can figure that one out for me, then our economic woes may be over.( Groan intended)

2. One of the posters on CPF stated he was seeing a huge variation in mAh output from a variety of battery producers. I therefore opted to buy the cheaper batteries, which were made on the same continent as all the retail outlets batteries were and simply expect to have a 20 - 25 % mortalliy rate.

One thing I would recommend for people buying an 18650 powered torch is to give a couple of burn tests before you use it. This gives you two huge advantages:

1. You know what your burn time will be before you get in the water with the light.

and

2. You can find/locate/get rid of any bum cells by using a volt meter before and after you charge the batteries. This can be tedious, but it saved my neck when I was crying to Chris about a battery issue. Ultimately he was right and I had a bad cell out of the 16 or so I was using between the 2 lights.

I could probably upgrade my battery pack to NiMH, but at this point I see no reason to. I'm getting plenty of light from my Doc made lights and the burn time on medium power is over 2 hours. On the contsant output light, it's pumping 16 volts for about an hour and 40 minutes. The batteries are small and portable enough that I can carry several spare sets with me to swap out between dives.

Of the batteries that have exploded, I know of only one that did so while in a dive light and being used and it was a 1270 SLA. I don't recall specifically what happened, but the diver reported hearing an audible "pop" and when he inspected the light on the surface, found the battery had shorted, heated the liquid to a vapor and the pressure puched the top of the battery off. I vaquely recall this was due to a short at the switch and not in the battery.

The only other evidence I have of a battery failure while diving, was reading "Mixed Gas Diving" by Bret Gilliam, but agian, it was a decade and half ago when I last read that book.

Anyway, my advice Herb, would be to buy some 18650's on E-bay and plan on having 25-30 % of the batteries not make it thruogh 4 burn tests. The savings wille be worth it, I think.
I do not believe in taking unnecesary risks, but a life without risk is not worth living.
-Charles Lindbergh

Alaska-Herb
Aquaphile
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Alaska-Herb » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:48 pm

Allow me to chime in here just a bit. When I said before I was not smart enough to understand this I was over stating my issue. I understand the basics and I would not use anything that I was not comfortable with. The battery pack that h2o built for me is a very basic solid pack it is simply a 16 volt system. I agree that when I have a bad cell what happens is i get nothing, this is why I started this thread I was having to many nothings and wanted to step up the quality of the battery. Every battery I have used and have seen is individuality charged and is protected by its own circuit attached to the battery.

Now I will acknowledge that use of this battery does pose some risk, but in everything we do there is risk. Our jobs are to

1. identify the risk, ( it may blow up or burn if misused)

2. determine the level of risk (remote as i have not had any issue and many others that I know have been using this battery in the same manner as I and have not had any problem.)

3. then reduce the risk as much as possible ( I am doing that by trying to buy the best quality battery I can afford, I take care of my cells I know which ones have been charged and which have not and I test each one with a digital volt meter before installing it in a pack so that I know it's current voltage.

Finally I appreciate Jeff for reminding me or educating me about the danger that these things are not toys that can be taken lightly. I also apprecaite that H2o Dr. Has built a quality light for me and he has spent a lot of time testing to make sure that the risk of an issue has been reduced as much as possible.

so can we move on to a real issue that needs to be solved.

why do you guys lose so much gear on the beach? or how can we get shipping rates to Alaska under control.

:smt064


thanks guys for the conversation

User avatar
coulterboy
Amphibian
Posts: 871
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:19 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by coulterboy » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:29 pm

I'm one of the users of the H20Doctor lights. As a matter of fact, I have a new light from him, I call it the "Big Red". I have used the 18650 batteries on my light for over a year and works fine. If "sh.t" does happen and it explodes on me while diving or when it's charging at home, well then, that's just it, :"sh.t" just happens. One could use the most expensive, sophisticated battery in the world, but the bottom line is, "sh.t just happens". Period.
When was the last time you did something for the first time?

User avatar
spatman
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10881
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:06 am

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by spatman » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:03 pm

Everybody calm down. We're talking about batteries, fer cryin' out loud.
Image

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:03 pm

Dear Jeff Kruse , i find your witch hunt against LiPo batteries and me very stupid and irritating.. The fact that i have to reply to you attacking me about batteries is completely dumb
rule #1 Dont be a dick , and your being a dick
But i will answer you once last time since you cant understand batteries, and you say your over on CPF , but i doubt you read any of the threads there with people building LIPO packs for dive lights on the dive forum, and flashlight people..
My pack holds 4 18650 batteries.. i use panasonics and ultrafire cells .. Protected !!!!!
I use this holder
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Key ... EmvYKrE%3d

Aalska Herb dive light Only holds 4 batteries Not 8..
If one of those cells goes out or bad , or doesnt charge , Guess what ?? NOTHING, the light doesnt turn on.. and the battery gets thrown away, and you use a new battery.. If you put 4 batteries in series and one battery is dead, It does Nothing!!! Nada .. no reverse charg no explosion...If i put 3 batteries at 4.3 volts and the last battery at 2.o volts in the pack.. It does nothing but discharge at the same rate.. due to the PCB.. how do I know ? ive been building these packs for 7 years DUDE.. 7 years and its not a big deal .. at all..In fact there have been 7 divers here on this board useing this system , with 100 % NO ISSUES.. thats Impressive
youre like the Boy who cries wolf .. and there is no wolf here on nwdc , 18650 batteries get sold all over the world , and many people in the world use them in battery packs .. protected and unprotected. to come on this Board and start acting like you are the battery Police , shows you dont know what your talking about.. and you dont..
you dont build Build or work with 18650 batteries, PCB,s and soldiering of Packs..
I do
NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

Jeff Kruse
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:41 am

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Jeff Kruse » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:06 am

H20doctor wrote:yea i read them, im on CPF aslo , And I can say that ANY LIPO can explode , the same as Nickle Metal, Or SLA ... Its evident on the internet .. Batteries do strange things. Any Battery we use on a daily basis is dangerous..



It's not the same. Nimh and SLA are much much safer and forgiving. Thats right, any LIPO can explode under the right circumstance. It would be wise to learn how to prevent that.

BTW, I believe NIMH burn rather than explode and the nasty’s they create aren’t even in the same league as LIPO.

H20doctor, what are you trying to say? That’s it’s ok to just use 18650’s without knowing the real dangers? If I understand the OP’s setup or what you posted about having a holder for up to 8 cells with the PCB on the bottom. IMO this can be very very dangerous if the protection circuit fails.

All it may take for a BOOM is one of those cells not getting charged. If you took 7 fully charged cells and 1 cell that “forgot” to get charged and put them in series and then drew some high current you may get a BOOM when the uncharged cell got fully depleted. That is the danger of cells in series. Your protection circuit may prevent that like in all laptops, drills, ect, but in all of those cases the cells in each of those packs can’t be removed so you can’t forget to charge 1 cell.

The danger dramatically decreases if you are using protected (with PCB’s on each cell) cells. H20doctor hasn’t specified which cells he uses but implies they are unprotected because he has a protection PCB in the bottom of the “pack”.

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:22 pm

mz53480 wrote:
H20doctor wrote:...The battery exploded in the camera while charging...


That's it. I'm not using the 18650 batteries any more.
REFUND!!!!!!


+1 i want my money back too, 3,000 worth of fire damage in my room
NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

User avatar
mz53480
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2401
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:16 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by mz53480 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:11 pm

H20doctor wrote:...The battery exploded in the camera while charging...


That's it. I'm not using the 18650 batteries any more.
REFUND!!!!!!
...I like going to the chamber.. They have great food there, and awsome live music "H20doctor"
Check out the VIDEOS!

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:42 pm

yea i read them, im on CPF aslo , And I can say that ANY LIPO can explode , the same as Nickle Metal, Or SLA ... Its evident on the internet .. Batteries do strange things. Any Battery we use on a daily basis is dangerous..

SLA
batteryExplosion.jpg
batteryExplosion.jpg (188.63 KiB) Viewed 951 times

NiHm
381952576_36e37b6eaf.jpg


Here is a Battery explosion in my room this last spring from My Canon Vixia Camera.. The battery exploded in the camera while charging..

426542_2572672235711_1646226708_n.jpg
420545_2572673875752_1968038056_n.jpg
423260_2572672955729_1086981284_n.jpg
NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

Jeff Kruse
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:41 am

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Jeff Kruse » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:36 am

Take the time to go through all the posts or don't. I am just trying to inform people of the issues using them. I use 18650's and love them. If you want the best then check out HJK tests on CPF. I use Redilast protected cells. 3100mAH are inexpensive but the new 3400mAH are twice the price (but worth it imo).

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... +batteries
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sea ... hid=693047

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:52 pm

mz53480 wrote:I use ultrafire batteries. I've charged & use them about once each month for ~2yrs now. Haven't had any issues.

Represent !!!! MZ in da house
NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

User avatar
mz53480
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2401
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:16 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by mz53480 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:51 pm

I use ultrafire batteries. I've charged & use them about once each month for ~2yrs now. Haven't had any issues.
...I like going to the chamber.. They have great food there, and awsome live music "H20doctor"
Check out the VIDEOS!

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:02 pm

Well , ive never had an issue.. Thanks for the info.
NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

Jeff Kruse
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:41 am

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Jeff Kruse » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:45 pm

H20doctor wrote:the only dangers in Li ion packs is when you start building them in packs and then getting into pcb's to charge them..


Thats not completely true. Li 18650's can be dangerous if used in series and they have different charge levels. Take a simple two cell flashlight. If you have a "bad" cell that hasn't held a charge or a good cell that didn't get charged you could have a problem. Put those two cells in a flashlight and turn it on. As soon as the charge on one cell runs out the other cell trys to reverse charge it and maybe BOOM. This has happened before and will happen again. Just check out CPF and you will find all kinds of exploding batteries.

And don't use Ultrafire batteries, they are among the worst.

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:07 pm

i made Alaska Herbs Light , therfore i am the one with the answers.. the battery pack runs 4 18650 in series producing 16 volts of power to 3 XPG chips .. with a burn time of 2 hrs
the only dangers in Li ion packs is when you start building them in packs and then getting into pcb's to charge them.. thats when those cells need expert building..with a cold welding soldier.. My system chargers them one at a time out of the battery holder..

utrafire charger
ultrafire-WF-139-charger-007.jpg
NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

Jeff Kruse
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:41 am

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Jeff Kruse » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:02 pm

H20doctor wrote:Thanks jeff, ive been making lights with 18650 batts for quite awhile now.. And have had no issues with running them in series.


My response was with respect to the OP.

User avatar
ArcticDiver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by ArcticDiver » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:54 pm

When it comes to things like batteries and passenger airlines there is only once relatively sure way to keep free of the ever grumpier rules. Use the TSA web site.

They are pretty clear about what can go on the airplane with passengers, either in the cargo hold or in the passenger cabin. Since the rules are continuously changing the only sure way is to use their web site.

Do Not rely on what you read on any one of a variety of web sites. Folks posting there seldom keep current on the rules. It is really embarrassing to have a relative pulled off an airplane because they violated one of the rules and the TSA agent or LEO is having a no humor day.
The only box you have to think outside of is the one you build around yourself.

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:35 pm

18650 have the pcb built into the bottom of the battery..youcan run up to 8 in a pack in a battery holder.. There not used in a pack config.. There in a holder.. And charged single at a time in a charger
NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

Alaska-Herb
Aquaphile
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Alaska-Herb » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:34 pm

me i am not smart enough to figure this stuff out i just trade one for one and let the smart guys like H2O Dr and Dusty figure it out for me. :-)

User avatar
Jeff Pack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:51 am

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Jeff Pack » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:19 pm

But for packs you arent using the 18650's are you, rather the unprotected ones, and a separate PCB board for overcharge, etc?

Just asking.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:09 pm

Thanks jeff, ive been making lights with 18650 batts for quite awhile now.. And have had no issues with running them in series.
NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

Jeff Kruse
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:41 am

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Jeff Kruse » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:38 am

Warning. Danger Will Robins.

Please be careful with these batteries. You need to know what you are doing to use these batteries and even then they can be dangerous. They WILL explode if mistreated and nasty nasty chemicals come out that can mess you up.

If your just using a single protected cell then you probably are going to be ok. If you going to make a pack using these things you better have proper battery management. The best cells out there are the Panasonic 3400 mAH cells. That’s a lot of power in just one cell!

BlowBubbles
Frequent Bubbler
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:32 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by BlowBubbles » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:27 am

I'm not familiar with those batteries, but I know you cant check lithium batteries. Its OK to carry them on. Why one and not the other, your guess Is as good a s mine.

User avatar
H20doctor
I've Got Gills
Posts: 4010
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by H20doctor » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:49 pm

NWDC Rule #2 Pictures Or it didn't Happen

User avatar
Jeff Pack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:51 am

Re: Batteries 18650

Post by Jeff Pack » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:47 pm

tenergy 18650's are good cells.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.

Post Reply