Argon

[Dmitchell]

So, I'm teaching a drysuit class tonight and giving my usual, "I have no positive or negative opinion on the benefits of argon" speech because not a single person around here uses it. In 19 years of diving here I've never seen anyone actually use argon. I just use air with Tri-mix.

Then I look at Gilly's HML thread and see that Tom Nic or Sounder or someone in that picture has an argon bottle on the rig.

It got me thinking how many of you PNW divers actually use argon on a regular basis?

I've got a Full T-Cylinder of it sitting in the shop but I've been too cheap to break it open. I guess maybe this winter when the water gets cold again I could try it. The waters warmed up (41 degrees) now that June is here so I don't figure there's alot of benefit during the summer.

How about you guys?


Dave

[Burntchef]

i only know of one person that i dive with that uses it, and he seems to be on the fence of the benefit. i have read that to get the best out of it is to have an al 80 and before you dive do a suit flush with it to get as much air out as possible then use your smaller bottle to add while you dive. again this is what i read not my practice but in theory it has some merit.

imo i dont get that cold so its more then i would care to deal with. but for those who do get really cold its worth a try.

[Aquanautchuck]

I am one of those that loves it. I have noticed a huge increase in my warmth during the colder months with Argon. I now dive it year round, I just adjust my undergarments to suit the weather. Purging your suit is very important, but that said with my Lp 14 I only use 300 lbs or less in a dive. I get something like 8 dives out of a fill. It was well worth it for me.
Charles

[Curt McNamee]

Hi Dave- Mel and I used it all the time while we were diving OC. With the extra warmth of a CCR it is not needed as much unless you are diving trimix. Mel still uses it, even with her dry suite heater, warmth is very challenging for her.

We could really feel the difference between air and argon.

Looking forward to diving the wrecks with you up your way this summer!!!!!

[Tangfish]

I dive Argon, and I notice it. It doesn't keep me 'warm' per se, but keeps me from getting cold a bit longer than w/ air.

[Zen Diver]

I use it too and also love it. Big difference with comfort level and well worth it (for me).

-Valerie

[LCF]

I did a sort of self-controlled experiment in Nanaimo in January, where air temps were in the 20s, and water temp was 43. The first day, I dove argon. The second day, I dove "airgon", as we topped the argon bottles with air. By the third day, I was diving air.

The dives were similar profiles, similar durations, and at least by gas consumption, similar exertion rates.

I noticed a striking change in my comfort level between the first day and the third. As everything else was constant -- undergarments, suit, and conditions -- I came to the reluctant conclusion that the argon was responsible.

I've since done a number of dives with and without, and keep concluding that it makes a distinct difference.

I'm not using it now that the water temp is 50, and I'm still diving the compressed neoprene suit, though, because with that combination, it isn't necessary. And although my cost for argon is minimal (about $2 a dive), the nuisance value of keeping the little tank filled is enough that I won't dive it if I don't need it.

[lamont]

I think if you're already warm on your dives argon won't make much of a difference. What argon does is let you handle a few degrees colder water comfortably, or it pushes out the point where you start to chilld 10-20 minutes, or it lets you dive a little later in 'the season' with comfort. The best way to see the benefits will be to wait until the water starts getting cold enough that 30-40 minutes into a dive you start to shiver so that you've got a nicely defined curve during the dive from warm+comfortable to cold+freezing. Then add argon (doing a full suit flush) and see how it pushes that curve out allowing you to stay comfortable for longer. For best 'scientific' results keep everything else identical (dive site, excertion, etc). I noticed this year I got about the same incremental effects going from air-to-argon, going from t-shirt to polypro and going from trilam to a CF200. Add all those changes up and I was able to hit the point where I'd could do a 90 minute dive in 45F water and be pretty comfortable.

In the summertime in puget sound it probably doesn't make any difference. Soon I'll probably go to being sloppy and using air tops and t-shirts, but as the winter approaches I'll start noticing I need to add those elements back in...

[Dmitchell]

Great info everyone, Thanks!

Dave

[Diver_C]

Hey - what's wrong with Mr. Bubble????

[Dmitchell]

Hey - what's wrong with Mr. Bubble????

Rebreather = no bubbles! well almost no bubbles.

:hello2:

Dave

[Sounder]

I think the best way to use the small percentage of warmth argon will help you retain is to do a suit flush or two before the dive. Supplementing the air in the drysuit with argon during the dive won't be nearly as effective as doing a good flush first.

Doing this, it doesn't keep me "warmer" per say, but it does prevent me from getting cold AS FAST as I would with air.

[Maverick]

Calvin is there an echo in the house?

Well I tried it for my first time during my deco class and thought it was ok but a bit pricey for me. It was funny Ireally only noticed that i didn't feel the inital blast of cold air when i releive myself of the squeeze. Infact i actually looked to see if i forgot to hook up my inflator to my suit.

not really needed for me, but will invest in it when I take my tri-mix course in the fall.
Mav

[Rack]

What would be interesting to do would be to put some sort of temperature recorder in the suit to attempt to see if the difference is tangible, or psychological.

The science makes sense, but it would be interesting to know the difference.

[peo]

There has been a Norwegian Navy study done, with inconclusive results. IIRC, the study didn't show any significant difference between argon and air as drysuit inflation gas. The study can be found be searching a bit on the Internet.

There are some big gaping holes in the study, though. The study measured core body temperature, which is the right thing to do, but only had a very limited depth (very shallow, 20 feet?), time, exertion level and water temperature range. The dives were also done in a neoprene drysuit with a thin undergarment if I remember correctly.

I might be wrong on the details here - it was several years since I read the study - but at the end of the day, it unfortunately is very inconsistent with the situation I'm diving in -- much deeper, thick undergarment, moving in the initial phase of the dive and then doing deco, etc.

There are simply so many parameters. In particular, depth combined with the choice of undergarment and drysuit will have a huge impact on the effectiveness of argon.

Personally, I use argon on every dive, and I believe it makes a big difference.

[kjc]

If Argon were the only gas studied, the results would have no basis for comparison.

Radon, Krypton and Xenon would have to be studied as well.

Heck, lets try some of the Noble Gases for a truely representative study, Chlorine, Florine, Bromine, Iodine, Astintinium...?

I bet a suit full of Bromine gas would warm something up!

[Dmitchell]

If Argon were the only gas studied, the results would have no basis for comparison.

I bet a suit full of Bromine gas would warm something up!

Isn't that what you get after eating squash soup?


DM

[dsteding]

If Argon were the only gas studied, the results would have no basis for comparison.

Sure there would be. Air was also used in that study . . .

[peo]

It is interesting how people feel different about using argon.

Some people say it's a huge difference, others can't tell a difference.

Some people, including very experienced people I deeply respect, think it makes a huge difference flushing the suit with argon before the dive, some (including me) think it makes no significant difference.

One thing that I'm sure DMitchell is very well aware of is that one thing that really helps is to flush your suit DURING a dive, especially if it's a dive were some part has you working out a bit harder, and in particular in colder water. You get lots of condensation in a drysuit in these conditions, and flushing during the dive helps reduce that a bit.

The only good way to know is to simply try it out. If it works for you, it might not matter much even if it's placebo. Also note that it's difficult to measure this over a couple of days of diving. Multi-day repetetive exposures in cold water often have you feeling colder during the later days of the sequence, even if everything else is equal.

/Peo

[Sounder]

"Argon saved my marriage." -Sounder

[Dmitchell]

Thanks Peo,

I was aware of the need to flush.

Water temps are pretty warm by our standards this time of year, I think at 122' last night it was 41 degrees. So IMO, air is fine in the summer. I'll probably crack the Ar bottle in the fall or winter when it starts to drop off and see if I can notice a big difference.

The big thing for me is the headache of sending the supply bottle(s) back and forth to Seattle to get filled. I sent 6-O2 and 1-He bottle down 10 days ago. They were delivered in SEA today and will be at least a week getting filled then another week to 10 days to get them back. So if it makes enough of a difference to deal with getting them filled, I'd be all over it.

Dave

[kjc]

Sure there would be. Air was also used in that study . . .

I was trying to express my inner geek and impress you with my Periodic knowledge.....

Air is a composite mixture I use periodically....

Isn't that what you get after eating squash soup?

wwwaaaa....

you didn't like my squash soup?

[Tom Nic]

"Argon saved my marriage." -Sounder

I was aware of the need to flush.

Two very important lessons:
-Always flush, and
-do whatever it takes to keep your diving wife warm and happy!

[Sounder]

"Argon saved my marriage." -Sounder

I was aware of the need to flush.

Two very important lessons:
-Always flush, and
-do whatever it takes to keep your diving wife warm and happy!

Yeah - leave her on shore with the credit card!

[lamont]

There are some big gaping holes in the study, though. The study measured core body temperature, which is the right thing to do, but only had a very limited depth (very shallow, 20 feet?), time, exertion level and water temperature range. The dives were also done in a neoprene drysuit with a thin undergarment if I remember correctly.

I expect that if you don't do the study right the body's homeostatic mechanisms will throw a wrench into the problem as well. I wouldn't be too surprised if core temperature tended to hit different plataeus or something like that, so that if you didn't carefully measure it continuously over the course of the dive to catch when it started to fall or weren't measuring something which caused enough difference in temperature forcing that it wouldn't produce any difference at all in the measurements...