re-breathers

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pensacoladiver
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Re: re-breathers

Post by pensacoladiver »

IMO, to say that any dive above 200 feet has no need for a rebreather is wayyyy off base.

That is to say that one does not need helium above 200 feet.

I for one do. Anything below 130 and I have helium in the mix.

My rEvo purchase was 100 percent made due to the cost of helium.

I dive it at recreational depths now as well to get hours and hours on it.

I will agree that I currently do not believe its the best tool for just recreational dives.

I also think that one should be a solid diver before thinking about hoping onto a rebreather.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by pensacoladiver »

banjofish wrote:And safety should be number one for recreational divers. Ive seen too many people who think they are far better in the water than they are...And some are not with us today.
FWIW, safety is number one for technical divers as well... Be it OC or CC.

If you have been associated with tech divers who lead you to believe it isn't... Give it a little time, you will eventually read about them on the Skooba Bored accidents forum.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by fishb0y »

Jeff Pack wrote:The bs is so deep now it smells like an army of dead moles has camped out here.
Mark this day on a calander...I agree with everything Jeff has to say in this thread. I thought topics like this were played out by 2007; is the next topic going to be about the hazards of bondage wings or the benefits of a seven foot hose?

With that being said, how about we set up a RB dive where we all do <130ft just to piss off the newly fledged GI3 followers?
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Re: re-breathers

Post by spatman »

You guys make me want to buy a ccr just to dive shallow profiles.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by fishb0y »

You can buddy breath off from mine if you like...
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Re: re-breathers

Post by AdrianSmith »

fishb0y wrote:You can buddy breath off from mine if you like...
Heck, we can just swap DSV's and ascend together.

-Adrian
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Re: re-breathers

Post by It's DUE! »

pensacoladiver wrote: IMO, to say that any dive above 200 feet has no need for a rebreather is wayyyy off base.
That is to say that one does not need helium above 200 feet.

Newsflash! There is such a thing as open circuit trimix. I personally believe below 100 warrants trimix. And no, you do not need a rebreather to use it.

and FWIW- sure, if you find yourself doing hours down at 200', maybe a breather is a good idea. But until gas logistics become so incredibly nightmarish that you need 2+ stage bottles... I say a rebreather is unwarranted. And if you have such a terrible rate of breathing that you need a breather for any amount of time at depth', then I would say you have bigger things to worry about, and no business technical diving


Also- I ultimately think it is a personal choice what you do with your diving, and I bet all y'all are great people. But that doesn't mean I will not argue opinions... :smt064
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Re: re-breathers

Post by pensacoladiver »

It's DUE! wrote:
pensacoladiver wrote:
That is to say that one does not need helium above 200 feet.

Newsflash! There is such a thing as open circuit trimix. I personally believe below 100 warrants trimix. And no, you do not need a rebreather to use it.

and FWIW- sure, if you find yourself doing hours down at 200', maybe a breather is a good idea. But until gas logistics become so incredibly nightmarish that you need 2+ stage bottles... I say a rebreather is unwarranted. And if you have such a terrible rate of breathing that you need a breather for any amount of time at depth', then I would say you have bigger things to worry about, and no business technical diving
I was kind of expecting that response. In the last 8 months, I've done 60 dives to 200 feet or deeper on cc.

On OC, the helium alone for that would be over $5,000. On the rEvo, I have spent $400 on helium and still have 1000 psi in the source bottle.

Thanks for the news flash, I did my fare share of OC d trimix dives in Florida where helium was cheap.

It ain't the case in Hawaii. Hence the decision to buy a unit.

Some folks talk about diving, some actually go out and do it. I prefer to keep company with the latter.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by Joshua Smith »

pensacoladiver wrote:
It's DUE! wrote:
pensacoladiver wrote:
That is to say that one does not need helium above 200 feet.

Newsflash! There is such a thing as open circuit trimix. I personally believe below 100 warrants trimix. And no, you do not need a rebreather to use it.

and FWIW- sure, if you find yourself doing hours down at 200', maybe a breather is a good idea. But until gas logistics become so incredibly nightmarish that you need 2+ stage bottles... I say a rebreather is unwarranted. And if you have such a terrible rate of breathing that you need a breather for any amount of time at depth', then I would say you have bigger things to worry about, and no business technical diving
I was kind of expecting that response. In the last 8 months, I've done 60 dives to 200 feet or deeper on cc.

On OC, the helium alone for that would be over $5,000. On the rEvo, I have spent $400 on helium and still have 1000 psi in the source bottle.

Thanks for the news flash, I did my fare share of OC d trimix dives in Florida where helium was cheap.

It ain't the case in Hawaii. Hence the decision to buy a unit.

Some folks talk about diving, some actually go out and do it. I prefer to keep company with the latter.
Love that last paragraph especially. Let me know if you're gonna be back in the area, Chad. I'll see if I can't get you a seat on one of our wreck dives, if you can handle the water temps.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by pensacoladiver »

It's DUE! wrote:And if you have such a terrible rate of breathing that you need a breather for any amount of time at depth', then I would say you have bigger things to worry about, and no business technical diving
What the hell, while I'm typing....

If you think folks think the solution to a high sac is to hop onto a device that requires careful monitoring of breathing rate to ensure CO2 buildup does not become an issue....well, you have a fundamental misunderstanding about CCR
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Re: re-breathers

Post by coulterboy »

spatman wrote:You guys make me want to buy a ccr just to dive shallow profiles.
Me too.
To the OP, I'm a bit surprised with your credentials and years of experience (I assume based on your low instructor cert. number) that you know nothing about CCR's. I'm not a CCR diver, but have dived a lot with them. I understand the concept behind it, and I believe it. If I was going to dive deep, I will consider buying a CCR over doubling hp 100's for the mere fact that it's lesser weight on my back. Keep your eyes and ears open, for the last 3 years or so, Underwater Sports in Seattle have CCR demo days.
Last edited by coulterboy on Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by pensacoladiver »

I'll be back one day and ill damn sure take you up.

I have accepted the fact that I am a wimp and recently started using a dry suit out here in paradise.

I'll be set for the cold water up that a way.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by It's DUE! »

pensacoladiver wrote:
It's DUE! wrote:
pensacoladiver wrote:
That is to say that one does not need helium above 200 feet.

Newsflash! There is such a thing as open circuit trimix. I personally believe below 100 warrants trimix. And no, you do not need a rebreather to use it.

and FWIW- sure, if you find yourself doing hours down at 200', maybe a breather is a good idea. But until gas logistics become so incredibly nightmarish that you need 2+ stage bottles... I say a rebreather is unwarranted. And if you have such a terrible rate of breathing that you need a breather for any amount of time at depth', then I would say you have bigger things to worry about, and no business technical diving
I was kind of expecting that response. In the last 8 months, I've done 60 dives to 200 feet or deeper on cc.

On OC, the helium alone for that would be over $5,000. On the rEvo, I have spent $400 on helium and still have 1000 psi in the source bottle.

Thanks for the news flash, I did my fare share of OC d trimix dives in Florida where helium was cheap.

It ain't the case in Hawaii. Hence the decision to buy a unit.

Some folks talk about diving, some actually go out and do it. I prefer to keep company with the latter.

Like I said- the right tool for the job... I agree with your reasoning to dive a breather in Hawaii if it is so incredibly cost prohibitive. I am curious, how much is it in Hawaii? If you were to ask Richard Lundgren about the price of helium in Sweden, he would tell you its around the metric equivalent of 30$/ft. That is ridiculously expensive. and YES he dives a breather

Now *please* take this into perspective of Oregon/Washington/Canada- after all this is NWDC- is it not? In Seattle- you can get Helium for only 70 cents/ft. So when somebody whines about price being to high... I just cringe. Even in Los Angeles it is only about a 1.50/ft. Cost savings on a breather are not justified when helium is not that damn expensive... frankly a breather is more expensive after adding all of the costs! Most who go into technical RB diving are qualified to dive OC trimix before they decide to go down the RB road- so why not stop there and spend the 1000s on OC diving instead?
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Re: re-breathers

Post by pensacoladiver »

A bottle of UHP here is 500 bucks. Industrial grade is 400.

That works out to about $1.20 a cubic foot or so... Which is way to expensive for me to be blowing it out with every breath.... For the number of deep dives I do.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by spatman »

Hey DUE

Are you the same mtrautman that was just getting into diving a year and a half ago? If so, you sure managed to figure it all out in a really short period of time. Kudos.

If you are the same mtrautman, why did you create a second account here on NWDC?
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Re: re-breathers

Post by Joshua Smith »

It's DUE! wrote:
pensacoladiver wrote:
It's DUE! wrote:
pensacoladiver wrote:
That is to say that one does not need helium above 200 feet.

Newsflash! There is such a thing as open circuit trimix. I personally believe below 100 warrants trimix. And no, you do not need a rebreather to use it.

and FWIW- sure, if you find yourself doing hours down at 200', maybe a breather is a good idea. But until gas logistics become so incredibly nightmarish that you need 2+ stage bottles... I say a rebreather is unwarranted. And if you have such a terrible rate of breathing that you need a breather for any amount of time at depth', then I would say you have bigger things to worry about, and no business technical diving
I was kind of expecting that response. In the last 8 months, I've done 60 dives to 200 feet or deeper on cc.

On OC, the helium alone for that would be over $5,000. On the rEvo, I have spent $400 on helium and still have 1000 psi in the source bottle.

Thanks for the news flash, I did my fare share of OC d trimix dives in Florida where helium was cheap.

It ain't the case in Hawaii. Hence the decision to buy a unit.

Some folks talk about diving, some actually go out and do it. I prefer to keep company with the latter.

Like I said- the right tool for the job... I agree with your reasoning to dive a breather in Hawaii if it is so incredibly cost prohibitive. I am curious, how much is it in Hawaii? If you were to ask Richard Lundgren about the price of helium in Sweden, he would tell you its around the metric equivalent of 30$/ft. That is ridiculously expensive. and YES he dives a breather

Now *please* take this into perspective of Oregon/Washington/Canada- after all this is NWDC- is it not? In Seattle- you can get Helium for only 70 cents/ft. So when somebody whines about price being to high... I just cringe. Even in Los Angeles it is only about a 1.50/ft. Cost savings on a breather are not justified when helium is not that damn expensive... frankly a breather is more expensive after adding all of the costs! Most who go into technical RB diving are qualified to dive OC trimix before they decide to go down the RB road- so why not stop there and spend the 1000s on OC diving instead?
So, what dives do you typically do? Do you do any dives in the 200' or deeper range?
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Re: re-breathers

Post by Jeremy »

Joshua Smith wrote:
It's DUE! wrote:
pensacoladiver wrote:
It's DUE! wrote:
pensacoladiver wrote:
That is to say that one does not need helium above 200 feet.

Newsflash! There is such a thing as open circuit trimix. I personally believe below 100 warrants trimix. And no, you do not need a rebreather to use it.

and FWIW- sure, if you find yourself doing hours down at 200', maybe a breather is a good idea. But until gas logistics become so incredibly nightmarish that you need 2+ stage bottles... I say a rebreather is unwarranted. And if you have such a terrible rate of breathing that you need a breather for any amount of time at depth', then I would say you have bigger things to worry about, and no business technical diving
I was kind of expecting that response. In the last 8 months, I've done 60 dives to 200 feet or deeper on cc.

On OC, the helium alone for that would be over $5,000. On the rEvo, I have spent $400 on helium and still have 1000 psi in the source bottle.

Thanks for the news flash, I did my fare share of OC d trimix dives in Florida where helium was cheap.

It ain't the case in Hawaii. Hence the decision to buy a unit.

Some folks talk about diving, some actually go out and do it. I prefer to keep company with the latter.

Like I said- the right tool for the job... I agree with your reasoning to dive a breather in Hawaii if it is so incredibly cost prohibitive. I am curious, how much is it in Hawaii? If you were to ask Richard Lundgren about the price of helium in Sweden, he would tell you its around the metric equivalent of 30$/ft. That is ridiculously expensive. and YES he dives a breather

Now *please* take this into perspective of Oregon/Washington/Canada- after all this is NWDC- is it not? In Seattle- you can get Helium for only 70 cents/ft. So when somebody whines about price being to high... I just cringe. Even in Los Angeles it is only about a 1.50/ft. Cost savings on a breather are not justified when helium is not that damn expensive... frankly a breather is more expensive after adding all of the costs! Most who go into technical RB diving are qualified to dive OC trimix before they decide to go down the RB road- so why not stop there and spend the 1000s on OC diving instead?
So, what dives do you typically do? Do you do any dives in the 200' or deeper range?
DUE is GUE Tec 1 certified....around 20-21 years old.... I'd bear the age in mind in this discussion imo....he is passionate as we all were at that age..
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Re: re-breathers

Post by pensacoladiver »

Jeremy wrote:
DUE is GUE Tec 1 certified....around 20-21 years old.... I'd bear the age in mind in this discussion imo....he is passionate as we all were at that age..
Maybe I was, it was so long ago, I can't remember.


Why not, since we are bringing training agencies into it... The GUE divers I tend to get along with great are those with upwards of 1,000 dives... Those that tend to know that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by Jeremy »

pensacoladiver wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
DUE is GUE Tec 1 certified....around 20-21 years old.... I'd bear the age in mind in this discussion imo....he is passionate as we all were at that age..
Maybe I was, it was so long ago, I can't remember.


Why not, since we are bringing training agencies into it... The GUE divers I tend to get along with great are those with upwards of 1,000 dives... Those that tend to know that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Preaching to the choir brah....imo... :)
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Re: re-breathers

Post by kdupreez »

FWIW - I have a GUE CCR certification and GUE is in fact adopting CCR for where it makes sense.

In my opinion, diving CCR or OC, has nothing to do with depth.. It is 100% personal choice.

That being said, for GUE that "personal choice" is making a judgement call on what the simplest, most effective and most importantly, the least risky way of doing a dive/project.

For example in mexico we are doing CCR dives on archeological and exploration projects in very shallow water, but for the reason that bringing lots of gas to a remote location doesnt make sense at all..

Same for places where cost, logistics and other reasons make it hard to bring OC..

Depth is only a multiplicator on gas logistics..

I think we can all agree that inherently CCR's are more complex and possibly more risky to dive than a simple OC single tank setup, so I tend to weigh the pros and cons on a per dive/project basis..

I tend to ask the question, what tool is right for that particular job at hand with Risk Mitigation as a priority.

Here in the PNW, my personal preference is that any dive around 150 and deeper with extended bottom time, probably warrants a CCR and the benefits it brings outweigh the minimal risk that a CCR adds on such a dive..

For fun dive on Bandito, I'll bring OC.. for me personally, the setup/scrubber packing/tear down/clean and disinfecting, ccr check lists, etc. etc. is a big pain in the ass for when throwing a set of OC doubles in the truck takes 5min.

But to be honest, comparatively speaking, the actual diving portion, a CCR trumps OC all the way regarding comfort, warmth, super quietness, bottom time, etc. etc. etc... the stuff mentioned above surrounding a CCR is what prevents me personally from bringing my CCR to every dive..

Go do a "experience CCR" event and decide if the investment is for you and if the gains you get from a CCR outweighs the simplicity of a OC setup..

BUT - again.. YOUR personal choice trumps all.. dont let anyone tell you how to dive what you are doing is wrong or right.. do what makes sense to YOU and makes you happy.. That said, also dont dismiss something entirely out of principle.. If someone can make a suggestion on altering my diving with good justification and something that makes sense and after trying it a few times it still doesnt resonate well with me, I can authoritatively toss it out as a good learning experience or adopt it with conviction.

I have gone through myriads of scuba classes and different gear and have found the style of diving that resonates well with me personally.. I'd recommend you find your happy place through experiencing different technologies and ways of doing things and figuring out what makes the best sense for you.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by rjw »

It's DUE! wrote: But that doesn't mean I will not argue opinions... :smt064
Or...Let the lack of any real practical experience keep you from forming one. :rofl:
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Re: re-breathers

Post by Jeff Pack »

fishb0y wrote:
Jeff Pack wrote:The bs is so deep now it smells like an army of dead moles has camped out here.
Mark this day on a calander...I agree with everything Jeff has to say in this thread. I thought topics like this were played out by 2007; is the next topic going to be about the hazards of bondage wings or the benefits of a seven foot hose?

With that being said, how about we set up a RB dive where we all do <130ft just to piss off the newly fledged GI3 followers?
and all go to cove 2 :)
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by Jeff Pack »

kdupreez wrote:FWIW - I have a GUE CCR certification and GUE is in fact adopting CCR for where it makes sense.

In my opinion, diving CCR or OC, has nothing to do with depth.. It is 100% personal choice.

That being said, for GUE that "personal choice" is making a judgement call on what the simplest, most effective and most importantly, the least risky way of doing a dive/project.

For example in mexico we are doing CCR dives on archeological and exploration projects in very shallow water, but for the reason that bringing lots of gas to a remote location doesnt make sense at all..

Same for places where cost, logistics and other reasons make it hard to bring OC..

Depth is only a multiplicator on gas logistics..

I think we can all agree that inherently CCR's are more complex and possibly more risky to dive than a simple OC single tank setup, so I tend to weigh the pros and cons on a per dive/project basis..

I tend to ask the question, what tool is right for that particular job at hand with Risk Mitigation as a priority.

Here in the PNW, my personal preference is that any dive around 150 and deeper with extended bottom time, probably warrants a CCR and the benefits it brings outweigh the minimal risk that a CCR adds on such a dive..

For fun dive on Bandito, I'll bring OC.. for me personally, the setup/scrubber packing/tear down/clean and disinfecting, ccr check lists, etc. etc. is a big pain in the ass for when throwing a set of OC doubles in the truck takes 5min.

But to be honest, comparatively speaking, the actual diving portion, a CCR trumps OC all the way regarding comfort, warmth, super quietness, bottom time, etc. etc. etc... the stuff mentioned above surrounding a CCR is what prevents me personally from bringing my CCR to every dive..

Go do a "experience CCR" event and decide if the investment is for you and if the gains you get from a CCR outweighs the simplicity of a OC setup..

BUT - again.. YOUR personal choice trumps all.. dont let anyone tell you how to dive what you are doing is wrong or right.. do what makes sense to YOU and makes you happy.. That said, also dont dismiss something entirely out of principle.. If someone can make a suggestion on altering my diving with good justification and something that makes sense and after trying it a few times it still doesnt resonate well with me, I can authoritatively toss it out as a good learning experience or adopt it with conviction.

I have gone through myriads of scuba classes and different gear and have found the style of diving that resonates well with me personally.. I'd recommend you find your happy place through experiencing different technologies and ways of doing things and figuring out what makes the best sense for you.
This is the best, most logical, and well thought post from anyone in the GUE camp I've ever read. Even better, its actually an educated and informed one!

I will disagree though on one point, and thats risk mitigation.

There's one thing you arent factoring into risk mitigation, that being time.

On OC, when anything ever happens, time is your enemy. You always have that time clock, watching that SPG go down.

On CCR, while you still have time as a factor, that time clock is at least 2x, if not 3-4x depending. Thats a lot of time to figure something out.

In comparing complexity, BAil out also needs to be compared. On CCR, your bail out is with you, and easily acccessible either via BOV, or just grab the reg off of your BO tank. On single tank OC, you need a buddy(or pony), for doubles you have all this itchy scratchy reach around with valves and manifolds and the like.

In whatever case, if you decide to dive CCR or not, dont just parrot what you've been told or heard. Actually have an informed opinion on the matter.
Last edited by Jeff Pack on Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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Re: re-breathers

Post by AdrianSmith »

Jeff Pack wrote:
fishb0y wrote:
Jeff Pack wrote:The bs is so deep now it smells like an army of dead moles has camped out here.
Mark this day on a calander...I agree with everything Jeff has to say in this thread. I thought topics like this were played out by 2007; is the next topic going to be about the hazards of bondage wings or the benefits of a seven foot hose?

With that being said, how about we set up a RB dive where we all do <130ft just to piss off the newly fledged GI3 followers?
and all go to cove 2 :)
YES! Damn but I wish I was there to join you guys. :)

-Adrian
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Re: re-breathers

Post by Tangfish »

Dives to 30 feet on a rebreather are nice, if you're a photog and enjoy being able to get closer to more fish without spooking them.

If size and weight weren't such a limitation for me, I'd travel with the CCR as well, but the airlines just aren't having any of that.
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