re-breathers

[Tom Nic]

Wow, nothing like a newbie telling an OG to stfu. And who was it that was saying this place is boring?

Awesome.

Now THAT's the NWDC that I know and love so well....

[pensacoladiver]

my CCR takes me an hour before and an hour after the dive to get through all the pre and post dive work and checks, etc. its a pita.

Holy shit. What unit are you diving? I sure as hell would not dive one either if I had 2 hours of my day invested into pre and post dive maintenance and checks.

How long does it take you to check your long hose. :-)

[Jeff Pack]

Hell, I'm at 2 hours to gather up everything, assemble the meg, get it all the gear loaded up, and 2.5 hours to reverse it all with all the cleaning, rinsing, etc. Admittedly I'm super anal retentive with my gear.

If its "mix gasses" week, add another couple of hours. That's why I have 4 sets of tanks.

[It's DUE!]

Once again, I will repeat what I have been saying. A rebreather is a tool. This tool is awesome for the proper applications. Richard, I completely agree that if you cannot sustain a project on OC then you should do it on CCR. No argument there.

Here is what I am trying to get across. There are those who choose to dive a rebreather when there is no need to dive one. They are not going to remote locations, they are not limited by the cost of helium, but rather, they are using it in an application that is perfectly well suited for open circuit.

I also argue, that closed circuit is inherently more hazardous than open circuit. So there needs to be a damn good reason to justify its use.

If that damn good reason is due to an overwhelming passion to explore a new cave system in the middle of nowhere, then hell yes! do it! The benefit, to those involved, is clearly more than the cost and added risk.

As for Jeremy's point about staying in practice- I think it makes sense. However, I still believe that there is a limit. I am a measly T1 diver. If I go on a decompression dive with a rebreather diver, I am not trained to be able to help him with failures, I am not trained in breather protocol... so how am I supposed to save his ass of he needs my help? suddenly we are defeating the entire purpose of standardized team diving.

Now, if you do not subscribe to team diving, or are okay with mixed team diving, there is no problem then. I am not trying to advocate for DIR, I am just sharing my *personal* opinion about the matter. After all, this is a recreational activity. we do this for fun, lets not forget that

[pensacoladiver]

You stated there is no need for a rebreather shallower than 200 feet.

Once again, I'm asking, how many dives do you have between 130 and 199?

[Jeff Pack]

Besides continually parroting what you've been told about rebreathers, what do you actually know about them? Have you actually dove one? Can you explain the pro's and cons of each tool with specifics, not generalities? Otherwise its just more blah blah blah... I have no problem with anyones "informed" opinion and choice. But I'm not seeing that here.

Mixed teams have dove the deep-deep wrecks (300ft+) around here for many years now quite successfully, ask Josh. But they aren't GUE, nor DIR, are they are doing it wrong too? They seemed to have figured out mixed teams.

[It's DUE!]

Not many. I am very recently certified in technical diving. I can only share my opinion, which is limited. Yet, I do not think this makes what I am saying invalid, or terribly ill-informed. I might ask, how would you view my comments if I had 200-300 dives in the 130-199 range?

[CaptnJack]

I'm a prototype diver for the sidekick, its very different from the GEM. Big difference is single CTL versus 2 lungs, gas injection is different(different style reg). I have one of the first CCR versions of this I am using as a Bail Out Rebreather. So far have used it to 280ft.

Yes I have seen several threads about that. I am not surprised you've continued this approach despite the near universal input from people far more experienced in CCRs than you that its a bad idea. And that dual CCRs (switching back and forth) is the only truly redundant approach despite being a huge hassle. And lastly that OC bailout is far better (especially in open water) unless you have a enormous project. Nobody considers flagpole to 280fsw a 'huge project'.

As for Jeremy's point about staying in practice- I think it makes sense. However, I still believe that there is a limit. I am a measly T1 diver. If I go on a decompression dive with a rebreather diver, I am not trained to be able to help him with failures, I am not trained in breather protocol... so how am I supposed to save his ass of he needs my help? suddenly we are defeating the entire purpose of standardized team diving.

News flash, not everyone has the same expectations of gear standardization as you do. If someone dives CCR or sidemount or a poodle jacket you are obviously not the buddy for them. Let it go. People can make their own stupid or wise choices without your expert feedback.

I have done a few (deco and cave) dives with CCR divers (10-15?) 1500ft back in a cave or at 180fsw doesn't matter too much, both are within my general "I got this" OC envelope. (250fsw on OC would be different) Overall, I don't give a crap how their unit works, if there's a problem they get an OC reg (mine or their bailout). I don't care what green vs orange vs red blinking lights mean. I am not going to be attempting to salvage their loop into something breathable. Simple, end of story. If they aren't ok with that, I'll go with someone else or sit in the sun.

[pensacoladiver]

Not many. I am very recently certified in technical diving. I can only share my opinion, which is limited. Yet, I do not think this makes what I am saying invalid, or terribly ill-informed. I might ask, how would you view my comments if I had 200-300 dives in the 130-199 range?

I would view them much differently as you would then have some practical experience to back up what you are saying.

Right now, as Jeff has just said, you are a parrot. I see you best finding a pirates shoulder to go sit on.

You asked.

I once made a comment to my close circle of dive friends that they would never see me on a rebreather.

I started tech diving.... A lot. I realized I needed helium... A lot.

I spent money on OC helium for many dives between 130 and 200.... A lot.

I realized I wasn't giving up tech diving and deep air wasn't an option, so I swallowed my words and bought a unit. And caught shot for it. A lot.

You are what I call a cyber tech diver... Talk about it with authority on the Internet but have no or limited experience going into the deep and coming back safely every time.

You might be best suited to do a little more tech diving before making declarative statements like you are the burning bush of knowledge.

And I still have not heard a number of how many dives you have between 130 and 199, where I assume, you are most certainly diving on helium.

[pensacoladiver]

Overall, I don't give a crap how their unit works, if there's a problem they get an OC reg (mine or their bailout). I don't care what green vs orange vs red blinking lights mean. I am not going to be attempting to salvage their loop into something breathable. Simple, end of story.

:

You mean to tell me that a mixed buddy dive plan can be as simple as "if I'm having issues, get an OC reg in my mouth"?

And you accept that brief?!!!!

Richard, I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet you get a lot of folks who are willing to dive with you. :-)

[Jeff Pack]

I'm a prototype diver for the sidekick, its very different from the GEM. Big difference is single CTL versus 2 lungs, gas injection is different(different style reg). I have one of the first CCR versions of this I am using as a Bail Out Rebreather. So far have used it to 280ft.

Yes I have seen several threads about that. I am not surprised you've continued this approach despite the near universal input from people far more experienced in CCRs than you that its a bad idea. And that dual CCRs (switching back and forth) is the only truly redundant approach despite being a huge hassle. And lastly that OC bailout is far better (especially in open water) unless you have a enormous project. Nobody considers flagpole to 280fsw a 'huge project'.

Its too bad you haven't read everything about it, but only enough for some little backhanded snipe. I was asked by the owner to test it, and testing I was. But you never bothered with knowing the conclusions, which were pretty much as you stated above.

OC bailout is insanely more simple than carrying a BoB. Diving a BoB horribly complicates ascents, and complicates descents to a far lesser degree (adv fires which muck with buoyancy).

Where a BoB shines, is at the point you cant carry enough OC bailout. But then that's where the conclusion that to dive deep-deep dives (300ft) requires a minimum 3 man team, and team bailout. Negating the need for a BoB.

Now if I was a caver, I would think a BoB would be awesome, but I'm not, and not much desire to be one. Maybe someday, maybe not.

[pensacoladiver]

BoB has a brother named Neal. They hang out together quite a bit.

[Jeff Pack]

BoB has a brother named Neal. They hang out together quite a bit.

But is Neal on OC or CCR?

[Jeremy]

Richard, I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet you get a lot of folks who are willing to dive with you. :-)

That's where you're wrong. Sure....he might donate a reg if you need it without checking your card first....but then he'll turn around and call your semidry suit "ghetto" and ruin all the happy mojo...

[pensacoladiver]

I'll bet you have received worse insults by better people.

[spatman]

Not many. I am very recently certified in technical diving. I can only share my opinion, which is limited. Yet, I do not think this makes what I am saying invalid, or terribly ill-informed. I might ask, how would you view my comments if I had 200-300 dives in the 130-199 range?

I think many here would view your comments as if they weren't coming out of your ass.

Go get some experience and meet these people you are debating before you try to school them on what they have been doing for many more years than you have.

[Emilyrc]

Super late to the party.. But.. In my experience as an internet user, it's probably best to keep your trap shut unless you really know what you're talking about through experience and actual-for-real instruction. Not a few opinion based threads on an online forum.

Now I am going to shut my trap about a thread I know NOTHING about.

[It's DUE!]

Not many. I am very recently certified in technical diving. I can only share my opinion, which is limited. Yet, I do not think this makes what I am saying invalid, or terribly ill-informed. I might ask, how would you view my comments if I had 200-300 dives in the 130-199 range?

I think many here would view your comments as if they weren't coming out of your ass.

Go get some experience and meet these people you are debating before you try to school them on what they have been doing for many more years than you have.

Matt, I think you are getting a little harsh here. I am sharing my opinion, which may not be derived entirely from 1st hand experience, but rather from talking to many divers, and asking them about it.

Please don't write me off just because I am new to the game and please don't tell me my opinion is invalid.

[Marc]

Not many. I am very recently certified in technical diving. I can only share my opinion, which is limited. Yet, I do not think this makes what I am saying invalid, or terribly ill-informed. I might ask, how would you view my comments if I had 200-300 dives in the 130-199 range?

I think many here would view your comments as if they weren't coming out of your ass.

Go get some experience and meet these people you are debating before you try to school them on what they have been doing for many more years than you have.

Matt, I think you are getting a little harsh here. I am sharing my opinion, which may not be derived entirely from 1st hand experience, but rather from talking to many divers, and asking them about it.

Please don't write me off just because I am new to the game and please don't tell me my opinion is invalid.

Get some experience, then voice your opinions. Opinions usually mean more if experience forms them.

[pensacoladiver]

Matt, I think you are getting a little harsh here. I am sharing my opinion, which may not be derived entirely from 1st hand experience, but rather from talking to many divers, and asking them about it.
.

This just gets better by the post.

There are 2 parts to your statement above.

1. That you are a cyber tech diver

2. You are a parrot.

If you ever get out to Oahu, feel free to give me a shout. We can actually go do some tech dives in the 180 foot range.

[spatman]

Matt, I think you are getting a little harsh here. I am sharing my opinion, which may not be derived entirely from 1st hand experience, but rather from talking to many divers, and asking them about it.

Please don't write me off just because I am new to the game and please don't tell me my opinion is invalid.

Marshall, the interwebs have always been populated by people who have little to no experience in a particular field, yet feel justified in arguing as if their opinion is solidly formed from genuine knowledge and application.

Many of us have been around NWDC for awhile and we see your kind come and go pretty much seasonally. We get a little annoyed every time we have to engage with some young know-it-all hotshot who is just defending his opinion that is based on very little experience.

Take my advice and get to know these fine ccr folks who you are arguing with. Dive with them, learn from them, and then form your opinion based on actual experience and not just chit chat at a dive site. You'll be taken a lot more seriously and at face value if you do.

[pensacoladiver]

But that takes time and effort. F THAT. I wants my respect and I wants it now. Y'all better respects my opinion.

[Jeff Pack]

phpBB [video]

[jeffgerritsen]

Wow what a thread!

[kdupreez]

my CCR takes me an hour before and an hour after the dive to get through all the pre and post dive work and checks, etc. its a pita.

Holy shit. What unit are you diving? I sure as hell would not dive one either if I had 2 hours of my day invested into pre and post dive maintenance and checks.

How long does it take you to check your long hose. :-)

Hahaha, long hose check is a long and meticulous process. I take pride in checking and caring for it :p

I dive a JJCCR that is configured they way we dive CCR systems, I.e. configured for 200+ dives. Dil + Bailout is manifolded LP50 on the back with seperate O2 and sometimes seperate dill..

Getting ready:
inspect unit and all orings then put together regs and hoses, bp,wing,lungs, etc = 10min
Pack canister = 10min
Check loop valves, Install canister, installed head 5min
Check gas levels, adv, mav and analyze/label all gas = 5min
Check controller and HUD and battery levels of HUD, controller, injector, check gas and deco settings = 5min
Do negative pressure and o2 leak test = 5min
Do positive and dil leak test = 15min
Do O2 calibration and cell linearity test = 5min

Total = about 1 hour

Before the dive I have a predive list:

Positve and negative test
O2 calibration check against dil flush and O2 flush
Above also validates mav and adv
Controller check setpoint maintain .7
HUD check against controller
Check ADV
Check O2 valve open and manual addition
5min Preez breathe

After the dive the unit goes in the truck, I go home and do the following:

Hose it down with fresh water in the truck = 5min
Disassemble the entire thing to bate bones = 10min
Fill tub and rinse regs, wing, lungs, loop = 10min
Mix disinfectant and disinfect lungs, loop, canister = 10min
Clean head unit and wipe out inside can = 5min
Check all Orings, clean and lube if needed = 5-10min
Check gas levels and topup if needed =10min
I sometimes may download profiles = 5min

Total = about 1 hour.,

You can probably skip some if these steps, but in my experience , when I have done so, those are the things that bite me in the ass..

Again, this unit is built for and intended for a specific purpose and the check lists and care is directly proportional to that purpose.

As you probably know, GUE is very procedural and have a standardized set of protocols and we don't deviate from it.. The above is part of a standardized protocol with very little room for shortcuts.