Scooter crack

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Jeremy
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Scooter crack

Post by Jeremy » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:34 pm

Dive xtras or Genesis......what do you want on your desert island? And why?

Thanks from all those considering their first snort of scooter blow....

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pensacoladiver
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by pensacoladiver » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:48 pm

Two of my buddies dive the Genesis 600. This is one of the few times I'll say this.... I'm jealous

No dynamic shaft seals and no opening the main body to charge.

Pretty ingenuous setup.

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LCF
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by LCF » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:30 am

I like the fact that Dive Xtras is in Mukilteo. It's awfully handy to drive up there and get stuff fixed or serviced. We've loved our Sierras and they have been extremely reliable.
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kdupreez
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by kdupreez » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:35 am

Genesis is nice due to magnetic prop and sealed body.. I'm not sure if the 600 has lithuim batteries, but you can't fly with it if it does.

I have a Cuda400 and like it a lot for the same reasons that Lynne has expressed and that you can travel with it.. The plus of easy battery access is that you can buy a spare battery and easily swap and charge one while diving the other.

Mark has Cuda400, 650 and also has a Halcyon T16 in the shop that you can go check out all of them and maybe even get a "demo" dive.

You are welcome to borrow mine anytime.
Last edited by kdupreez on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pensacoladiver
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by pensacoladiver » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:40 am

It does have lithium batteries. And correct, you can fly with it.

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kdupreez
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by kdupreez » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:47 am

You CAN fly with it? I thought lithium batts are not allowed on planes?
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kdupreez
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by kdupreez » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:48 am

BTW - I think Richard Jack as a Genesis and we should try and get all 3 of the scoots out for a dive and you can try em all :)
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camerone
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by camerone » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:30 am

kdupreez wrote:You CAN fly with it? I thought lithium batts are not allowed on planes?

Sealed ones are allowed up to a limit. By sealed, I mean "part of a device", not loose batteries, etc. Basically up to about 25 g of lithium content... roughly 300 Watt Hours. Those can be checked.

They're a lot more permissive about what goes in your carry-on, though.

This presumes the TSA knows their own rules, doesn't steal your stuff, and can read English to some degree. That's an awfully big presumption to make.
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pensacoladiver
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by pensacoladiver » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:25 pm

I'm not the subject matter expert on the Genesis batteries, so don't quote me.

The 600 is modular. The batteries break down into 300w packs.

Very well thought out scooter lol

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Jeremy
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by Jeremy » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:23 pm

It cap'n jack has a Genesis that pretty much settles the debate :)

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GearHead
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by GearHead » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:42 pm

I'm lusting after a Genesis 600, but can't pony up full retail yet for the beast. Their batteries are in two modules which may be carried on a plane. The body also separates into two modules which may be checked in a dedicated case.

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CaptnJack
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by CaptnJack » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:59 pm

pensacoladiver wrote:I'm not the subject matter expert on the Genesis batteries, so don't quote me.

The 600 is modular. The batteries break down into 300w packs.

Very well thought out scooter lol


This is correct the Genesis 600 has 2x 299Wh packs by design and is legal to fly.

The 1200 and 1500 are not legal to fly.

I have owned;
Mako
Short Gavin
Sierra
(now) Genesis 1200

I have ridden:
Cuda 400, 550, and 650
SS Minimus
Standard Gavin
Apollo

The Genesis is far and away the best scooter I have ever owned or ridden. Jon (the owner designer) actually built ROVs before doing 2+ yrs of R&D and releasing the Genesis. Everything about it is a measurable improvement over other designs (with one nit I will mention in a second).

The UW field serviceable prop - fishing line anyone? No problem just pull of the prop underwater and put it back lineless.
The continuous speed control,
the latch-less closure design,
the ability to charge it without opening it,
the ability to completely turn off all power draining electrics without opening it,
the slightly buoyant shroud minimizing the required length,
the overall weight (45lbs),
no paint - its anodized black,
no face sealing Orings at all the 2 orings are both grooved seals and their is only 1 size to have on hand,
completely sealed motor - even if the batteries flood the motor won't,
the batteries are so tight in the tube they can't wiggle around much even if they come loose
And lastly the fact that I can do ~5 days worth of diving on one charge if I have to.

My one issue is the speed control is right by my right thumb. Its taken some getting use to thumbing holding my lighthead while not bumping the speed control. I guess my sort of second issue is that I have yet to lose the electronic key, I've heard its $200 to replace. Its a 100% mission critical part, yet small and potentially easy to lose. Its about the size of an eraser (1.5" x 0.5" x 0.25") and goes on the nose during use. You have to take it off to charge or store the Genesis. I keep mine clipped to the towcord. Rumor has it there's also a long wait list for a new one.

Did I tell you its faster and more stable than a Cuda 400, while also being 10lbs lighter than the comparable Cuda 650? And one of the fastest at Tahoe too (although those data aren't recent anymore).

The problems I had with the Sierra were few. But the shaft seal likes to corrode in place, ditto the trigger rod. The paint will look like shit in no time bubbling and chipping from corrosion. The zinc on the nose is a joke, it does nearly nothing to prevent dissimilar metal corrosion. This is mostly just a cosmetic problem though. The springs in the latches will eventually break (not super critical). The battery clip can break or come undone and the Cuda's are basically unride-able with a loose battery. This can really mess up a critical dive on a (dangerous) very expensive once in a year charter to the SS Governor, or 1400ft back in a cave. The battery clip on the DiveX scooters is probably my biggest beef with them. Its a cheesy plastic hoop and all hell breaks loose if its not installed perfectly or breaks. Unfortunately you have to remove the battery to recharge it so you are constantly clipping and unclipping that hoop. Eventually you either install it wrong or you break it. IIRC its $17 which is a lot when you see how flimsy it is.

The normal Sierra is really slow to me now, 5 yrs ago it seemed like enough speed but honestly technology and design has made a huge up with the Genesis. My wife still has a Sierra and she likes it. It is light enough for her to easily manage on land and not overpowering in the water either. If lightweight, not terribly expensive are priorities then the Sierra or Cuda 400 are good options, esp. if you find one used. I got my Genesis used and even used there was major sticker shock. New the Genesis price is obscene. A new lithium battery Cuda 400 is the same rough price as a Genesis 600. I don't think there's much I could recommend about this combo though.

The Cuda 650 seems big and heavy to me. However its a nice stable platform for big HD video cameras and lights etc.
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pensacoladiver
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by pensacoladiver » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:06 pm

Funny you mention the speed control. I just finished a half mile run on a 600 and noticed myself unintentionally changing the speed by bumping the lever.

But it sure is nice to be able to adjust speed with one hand to any output on the fly.

If Jon ever drops his prices a bit, I think he will corner the market.

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Re: Scooter crack

Post by H20doctor » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:52 pm

I dont have the cash, but id buy a Genesis... it's a beast.. 2 option , magnus 950
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by ljjames » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:45 am

I have both a cuda whateveritis tube (first mini cuda so somewhere around a 400) and 650 tube and a Halcyon(SUEX) T16.

I use the T-16 the majority of the time because of the smoooooth speed control which is excellent for video, the dial-a-speed is perfect for the slow pans around things and the perfectly neutral and balanced body out of the box is great when I pull the camera off the scooter, it just 'hangs out' and doesn't make a nuisance of itself. I don't need speed as much as I need smooth and hassle free. Additionally my primary dive buddy has Gavins so its not like i'm slowing down a bunch of kids who like their ballz crushed by the CUDA on 8.

Also love the quick lock on the prop (can be removed UW for clearing of line and vegetation) and the O-ring, oil, O-ring seal on the prop shaft.

So far its been a great scoot. I got mine used, and it had been totally abused as a demo scoot, but a quick rebuild - at the time it went back to FL - and it is as good as new but a fraction of the price.

These days scoots are totally a tool for the job. I use them to haul video cameras around, tow cables, lug bags of specimens and samples (pack mules for the most part) and to get to midrange off the beaten path sites that are not as readily dived with fins alone due to distance, but not quite far enough to justify a charter :)

Richard covered nicely the downside of the Dive X and their battery C-clip. Nothing like being on the dive of your life and realizing your battery has come loose. very distracting to say the least. there are ways around it (a rubber band or five) but no guarantees. You can go dozens of dives with no issue but one day when you are in a hurry... Love the speed, its all sorts of fun but not the best for lugging a video camera around on and when you need to be as close to 100% sure as possible that your scooter will get you where you need to go without hassle because its a necessary tool for the job. I treat my cuda-baby like a sports car that i keep in the garage and bring out on sunny days :)

Cuda 650 almost never gets used because its a pain in the ass due to length. Too long for me to carry down the water carrying by the shroud without dragging, so have to two hand it with the strap or else I scrape the pretty paint off the nose. T16 is just short enough that i can woman-handle it with one hand it if necessary. Cuda-baby is darn near perfect length for dragging around on shore dives. (remember, i'm short, so YMMV)
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mpspringer
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by mpspringer » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:12 am

Genesis 600 video: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=play ... ufuhWX-ZjM

Batteries: (2) 300w lithium

300w per battery is the max limit to fly with. This should meet the requirements.

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Re: Scooter crack

Post by KaizerWilhelm » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:00 pm

I've ridden all of the scooters here and I think they all have their merits. Some are more quality than others, but I think all are good. For what you want to do, Jeremy, I think that any of them besides the T16/XJOY14 are going to be good. I know that you travel a lot. IATA rules state that you cannot carry on litihum batteries over 100wh, and you cannot check lithium batteries over 300wh. You can carry on NiMH batteries of all sizes. (Before anyone questions me, I was hazmat lithium battery trained last week).

Jeremy, what you want in a scooter is something you can grow with. Something you can buy once and not have to worry about. You want the most proven and secure unit money can buy. Something that's made of aluminum, not plastic, that has parts easily available in case you need them, and something that's powerful enough to pull you and your soon to be GUE T1 butt through the water when we go to the bomber (yes i'm taking you once you pass T1). Hell, all customers want a scooter like that, right?

Here's what I see in the Genesis and the Cuda, take it as you will...

The Genesis scooters are great. John has invented some quality scooters and he's put a lot of thought into them. Personally, I think the Genesis 600 is too squirly due to it's small size. The charging port on the nose is nice, but no matter what, I wouldn't charge a scooter battery in a housing. Batteries are bombs that, with enough power pulsating into them via charging, will explode. I'm sure that won't happen often, but it could happen. They have two sealing surfaces, the nose and the main body compartment. The electromagnetic prop is really really cool, but trying to get that thing off underwater with monofil around it, good luck. I don't know what the burn time is like, but I'm sure it's great. The small size is nice, but it has to be transported in at least 3 parts on a plane due to the 300wh lithium batteries.

Cudas have been around for a long time and have been proven reliable scooters. The 400 is longer than the Genesis 600 so it's less squirly. Like LJ said, it's like a sports car, however you can control it better due to it's length. It also has two sealing surfaces, the main body seal and the shaft seal. I've never heard of either of those giving way unless someone didn't take care of the scooter (that can be said for all scooter, no matter the brand). I know that the motor of the Cuda, if the body floods, will still work after you place it in some rice for a couple days.The programmable electronics are very nice and customizable. That whole jerky up-shift/downshift thing is crap. I took my Cuda to Truk Lagoon last year with all my dive gear in 2, less than 50lb checked bags. The factory is down the street from your house.

Admittedly I don't know as much about the Genesis as I do the Cuda, but I've owned my Cuda for 4 years and have no intention of selling it. I still have the original battery and it's at 75% capacity and I use it every week. From experience, I wouldn't buy another scooter. But who knows...maybe something better will come along in a year and we'll all be drooling over it.

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Re: Scooter crack

Post by CaptnJack » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:30 am

If the Genesis batteries were to explode or catch fire you are actually in a much better place than on any other scooter. They are in an Ali tube which pops off of the motor base (assuming you remove the sealing cords like you're supposed to). The tube to motor "latch" is actually 2 pieces of string trimmer line in a groove. You pull those out and the tube can pop off should the batteries offgas. You do not want to be charging lithium batteries near anything flammable. Which basically means outside the scooter body anywhere in your house or garage. You can check Aainsle's exploding Salvo scooter thread on TDS if you want to see what happens. Although those old Salvo batteries were nothing like the Genesis battery in design and cell matching.

If you were to have a large lithium battery e.g. lithium Cuda or SS that is charged out of the scooter body I would suggest getting a couple sheets of cement board to build a 5 sided box to charge it in so you don't burn down your whole house if it were to ignite. All the large lithiums say to "charge under supervision" but that pretty much impossible with a battery that takes 8 or 10 hours to reach full charge. Of course the reason they take that long is that they have 2x the energy density of NiMH.
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by H20doctor » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:59 pm

i think Dive X is a good scooter... dont know why the Neg stuff was discussed, ? i have never had my battery fall out of the clip ? with the retaining ring.. other than power and run time i think the cuda 400 is a great scooter.. when I owned my blue cursed cuda , it was a blast , but i wish the battery run time was longer as i loved to run the sucker in top gear all the time and crush my nuts
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pensacoladiver
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by pensacoladiver » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:26 pm

Ummmmm. The negative stuff was discussed because it is negative stuff.

The battery retaining system for Dive X scooters sucks. Mine failed several times on my Sierra when I had it.

You sound like a lucky one with yours.

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Re: Scooter crack

Post by CaptnJack » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:04 pm

Life's not all fluffy bunnies and unicorn farts.

Every scooter, like every boat (or rebreather, or regulator, or light...), is a bit of a compromise. Choice depends on what your priorities are and what is less critical.
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by RenaB » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:25 am

OUCH! Used car priced. Fluffy bunnies who fart unicorns? Maybe unicorns that fart fluffy bunnies. I am not sure that life would be better if we had these. :smt064 :smt064 :)
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CaptnJack
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by CaptnJack » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:31 am

RenaB wrote:OUCH! Used car priced. Fluffy bunnies who fart unicorns? Maybe unicorns that fart fluffy bunnies. I am not sure that life would be better if we had these. :smt064 :smt064 :)


Its the horn that gets you every time.
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RenaB
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by RenaB » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:27 pm

I can only imagine.
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Re: Scooter crack

Post by Penopolypants » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:59 pm

Unicorns fart glitter and poop marshmallows. Duh! Everybody knows that!
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