Newish diver interested in BP/W, looking for sage advise

[VitusVenture]

Well, perhaps I will settle for any advise I can get!

I started diving a few months ago, and have 22 dives logged. Shortly after completing my OW course, I picked up a gear package from a local shop. While I am happy with the regs and computer involved, I feel like the BC has room for improvement. I am currently diving a Knighthawk, but I really dislike the heavy, floppy integrated weight pockets, and the general buoyancy of the rig. Having been doing internet research (and taking everything with a grain of salt), I think that a BP/W would help solve these issues. I like the idea of a modular system, and moving a fair bit of weight into the back of the unit.

That all being said, I am trying to make as informed a decision as possible, as spending $$ on a BC, then deciding that something else might be better is less than fun (though I know the whole gear discussion is an individual, iterative process).

I have been looking at a basic SS plate, STA and Cam band assembly from DGX, since those components seem relatively generic. For the wing, I like the look of the HOG 32lb wing, but I don't think I really have enough knowledge to make an informed decision on that front, so any wing advise (preferring to keep a low budget, though it seems everyone says that) would be fantastic!

In my introduction post, Jeremy pointed out that checking out WWW (which I am guessing is Wacky Wednesday West) might be a good opportunity to get some hands on experience with a BP/W, however, mid-week diving is a bit difficult in general. And I see that this week they will be doing a weekend BBQ, but I have a wedding to attend that will have me out of commission. Are there any other places I can check out and try a BP/W setup?

Thanks much in advance!

[thefeve]

Definitely keep posting, I can almost garuntee you'll find someone that'll let you try one out. Myself being one if you want to come up north to muk sometime after work. I have the hog 32 lb and SS OMS backplate with STA for my singles rig, and I'd be hard to find a better priced rig short of going used (as i did for the plate and STA).

You'll find no shortage of BP/W advice here, and its all awesome. You're in the same boat I was when I started 2 years ago. Thanks to many here I'm now a BP/W fan and can't see ever going back. I only tried out a zeagle ranger and whatever my rental BC was when I had originally gotten certified, so I can't say I had a ton of experience otherwise as I switched over around that 15-20 dive mark as well. Can't go wrong with plate and wing, cheap, modular, easy to learn and dive, and can expands with you as your diving needs change.

Good luck!

[Jeff Pack]

a 32lb wing is small for nw diving. Perhaps for the single tank, al80 route it'd be ok. I dont think I'd want a steel tank with it.

When it comes down to BP's, most are the same, it's materials, fit and finish that separate them. Some may not require an STA, like my old Zeagle BP. Then you look at whether you are going a 1 piece hogarthian harness, or adjustable (non DIR style).

Halcyon BP's are really nice, but with a high price tag. My Zeagle is really nice as well. Lots of options on BP's.

[LCF]

32 pounds of lift is fine for Puget Sound, assuming that you aren't huge and using a neoprene dry suit.

Deep Sea Supply makes a very nice single tank setup, with a steel plate, harness, and a wing that doesn't require an STA. You can also buy weight plates to bolt onto the plate, to add another 8 lbs of ballast, if you like. My husband does that, and I do not, because I prefer using cambands weight pouches so that I can remove the weights to make moving the rig around on land easier.

You can order directly from DSS, or buy from Bubbles Below. The price is the same.

I don't know where in the Puget Sound area you are, but if you want to look at backplanes, give us a holler. We have a few . . . and a pool in the backyard.

[VitusVenture]

Thanks for the great info so far everyone!

I am living up in Edmonds, WA, so perhaps some investigation out at Bubbles Below would be a good plan.

I am currently diving a 7mm O'neill J-type, and am 6'1" and around 200 lbs (on a good day :P). My current rig is the Knighhawk with a Steel LP85 and 28lbs of lead (though I feel like I could drop a few pounds there).

With expanded information, what would the advise be on wing size? 32lb ok?

Also, I was leaning toward an STA to move a bit more weight to the plate, and possibly make the whole thing more stable (according to internets). Do people tend to be just as comfortable without one?

[thefeve]

I haven't dove without the STA, but other than being a bit heavier than you, thats roughly where i started out when i got my setup. There's def times I've wanted a little more lift for comfort on the surface, but def didn't NEED it. From what I've seen, generally 32-38 seems to be pretty common around here for singles wings.

[jturner]

Numbers were already said above but I find the math behind it all interesting... so...

With wing size, my understanding is that you need to compensate for the greater of either potential loss of buoyancy due to flooded exposure protection (not applicable in wetsuit) or total of weight. The idea being that the rig could float itself on the surface or if you were to have a completely flooded suit then it could compensate for the lost buoyancy. With your level of lead you would be pushing it pretty close to the limit on a 32lb wing but if your weight was primarily on a weight harness (seems most likely with a bpw) then you'd be fine.

If you really want to obsess on numbers there is this: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/buoyan ... tor-3.html but the easy advice is what was said above of 32-38 is common here.

[LCF]

An STA raises the tank further off your back, so it doesn't help stability at all. Several brands have well-designed tank stabilizers built into their wings, to obviate the necessity for an STA.

STAs are very useful if you are switching back and forth frequently between a single tank setup and doubles, because you just unbolt the STA with the cambands attached. If you are not using doubles, that advantage is gone. STAs can also allow you to add weight to the rig, but so do the DSS weight plates.

We're in Woodinville, so it would be an easy trip down to stop by our place and look at what we have.

[Alaska-Herb]

We're in Woodinville, so it would be an easy trip down to stop by our place and look at what we have.

I just wanted to say I love the sense of community you folks have, with Seattle PNW being as large as it is you all seem to work hard to still have the small town community feeling for all divers local and drop ins

Herb
in Sitka

[Dashrynn]

32 pounds of lift is fine for Puget Sound, assuming that you aren't huge and using a neoprene dry suit. .

I just wanted to say that I own a 35lb golem std setup and find the extra 3 lbs to be unnecessary and at times a tad bit frustrating. Sometimes I wished it were 30lbs of lift. Most of the time I'm floating around with my BP barely inflated.

My past configurations were a d6 bare drysuit, 7mm wetsuit, 5mm wetsuit for warm water, and now shell suit up here. I also dive a weight belt and have some weight on my bp tank straps to remove some weight off my old style weight belt and weight off my hips.. For those who frown on this, I have more than enough to ditch and send me to the surface in a CONTROLLED manner. In the past I've used a dui weight harness, and hated it.

[VitusVenture]

Thanks very much for all the feedback, it is nice to get some perspective from people who don't assume everyone is diving AL80 in a tee shirt! :P

I will make some time to swing by Woodinville and look at some gear in person, rather than relying solely on tiny jpegs.

What is the general through for picking up a used wing? It seems like that is the most expensive single piece (and most important), so do people generally want something new?

Also, jturner@, that calculator is shiny! I had done a bit of calculation myself in excel, and was happy to see it in the same ballpark as someone who actually knows a little bit of what they are doing! The amount of lead needed look very nice vs my current setup!

[CaptnJack]

Used wings can be fine, usually you can tell by the fraying and fading how abused it is.

The key thing about putting weight on the rig and wings are that the wing needs to be able to float a full tank with all the lead attached to it. Trust me a negative rig sucks on small boats. So you might need to play with the amount of lead on the tank bands (or bolted to the plate) relative to your full cylinder and actual wing lift. Actual lift may not exactly align with advertised.

Personally I like the STA because I also dive doubles and it allows me to keep lead on the single tank cam bands which are completely separate from the plate. I don't like the DSS plates at all honestly, the bend in the plate is much shallower than any other plate on the market and if you borrow or rent doubles someday the bolts may or may not be long enough to work on a DSS plate. My personal PNW stainless plate is a halcyon knockoff I bought from 5th D many moons ago.

[Grateful Diver]

You might also want to look at a Hollis rig ... they have a really nice 38-lb singles wing that's perfect for Puget Sound diving.

There's a small store in West Seattle, right on the way to Cove 2, that sells both Hollis and Halcyon. Might not be a bad thing to drop in and check them out before making a decision.

I dive the DSS rig that Lynne was talking about. Love it ... have close to 1300 dives on it, and plan many more. The one thing to be aware of with the DSS wing is the short inflator hose. Some people love it ... some hate it. I'd recommend checking it out before you buy, just to make sure it's not something you're going to be annoyed with after you buy.

Another advantage to the DSS plate is the plate weights. They achieve the same thing as a weighted STA, but a bit more elegantly. And having recently priced out weighted STA's ... I think DSS plate weights are also a less expensive alternative.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[mz53480]

Used wings can be fine, usually you can tell by the fraying and fading how abused it is.
...
Personally I like the STA because I also dive doubles and it allows me to keep lead on the single tank cam bands which are completely separate from the plate. ...

+1 for the above.

[Scubie Doo]

I agree with Bob, the Hollis 38 is really nice for the PNW. You might want to hit up Koos with a pm. The GUE folks dive on weds and often bring gear to try out.

[Dashrynn]

Golem gear is worth trying out as well. I had my gear setting up for 2 years, sometimes in heat, and the gear performed good beside a leaky inflator that hadn't been serviced since I bought it new back in 2009 or 2010. That speaks to me the quality behind Golem gear.

[VitusVenture]

Thanks for all the excellent advise everyone! This is definitely helping me shape what kinds of things I need to look for. I clearly came to the right place to get some answers!

When looking around at used gear, it seems like BP/W type stuff comes up on the classifieds forum here every couple months. Are there any other places to keep an eye on to try and snag some components without breaking the budget?

If this is the rig I decide to go with, I anticipate wanting to sell my current BCD to help offset the cost. Are there any dive shops that deal in used gear and might do some sort of trade in? Or just posting on here/Craigslist (perhaps)?

[Nwbrewer]

Thanks for all the excellent advise everyone! This is definitely helping me shape what kinds of things I need to look for. I clearly came to the right place to get some answers!

When looking around at used gear, it seems like BP/W type stuff comes up on the classifieds forum here every couple months. Are there any other places to keep an eye on to try and snag some components without breaking the budget?

If this is the rig I decide to go with, I anticipate wanting to sell my current BCD to help offset the cost. Are there any dive shops that deal in used gear and might do some sort of trade in? Or just posting on here/Craigslist (perhaps)?

Criagslist or here (maybe scubaboard too) are your best bet for buying/selling used gear. The only place around that I know of that will buy used gear is Discount Divers in Seattle, but you're going to get a much lower price than you would selling it yourself.

I'm also in Woodinville, and I typically dive afternoons in the north end. I have a singles BP/W that you could try if you'd like to some afternoon if you don't meet up with Lynne or the GUE Seattle folks first.

Jake

[coulterboy]

I too, use a 32 lb. Hog Wing with an STA. I'll be honest though, when I first used the wing without the STA, it was wiggly on my back, but with the addition of the STA, it was like night and day. I can't make comments for the other wing designs though. I know, HOG advertises their wings without the use of an STA. I bought my Highland Mills BP and STA back when NWSD was still open, and Matt DenHaan, the owner/operator/instructor said that he never recommends using a wing without a backplate, and he was right. At least, on my case. To each his own.

Hit me up when you want to dive in Edmonds. I live 5 minutes away from the park.

Good luck with your quest to cross the line and enter into the world of diving with BP/wing set-up. You will love it.

[CaptnJack]

here, craigslist, scubaboard, or TDS

I have not found Ebay to be a worthwhile source for scuba gear you might actually want, nor Discount Divers. Both seem overpriced for the quality/condition. I have bought a few specific things off ebay but I knew exactly what I wanted and was able to search for that item easily and just buy it.

[Norris]

As for backplates and wings coming up on Craigslist I can say that they don't. I have an RSS feed for SCUBA fed right into my Outlook at work and rarely have I seen this. Usually its something along the lines of...

COMPLETE SCUBA SETUP! All you need to dive!!! Bought this 5 years ago for 4000.00 my loss your gain at 3575.00.
Al80s for sale at 150.00 a piece out of hydro and out of Viz. GREAT DEAL!

Which I guess would say something about that equipment, once you own it, people rarely go back.

I second Capt Jack on TDS for BP/wings and gear. The only problem with that is most sellers are East Coast, it seems, so you have to factor in shipping.

My singles rig is a bp w/ hog 32 and single webbing. I would be willing to take ya out for a spin in it, but if you are already looking to buy, a test drive might not even be in order.

[ljjames]

not so sure if its sage, more like rosemary or coriander....

A nice thing about the single tank adaptor that i use that not only is it a nice tank stabilizer, its also a slick place to hide a bit more weight that is very out of the way. I do not find it makes anything more 'wobbly', wobbly feeling is often user error, AKA me not tightening my waist strap of course YMMV. (as is indicated by the numerous comments here)

I use 30lb wings, one on my singles kit and one on my 'breather. They have been absolutely fine. I use 80's, 100's, and whatever Lamont's monster singles are (119's?) and its been more than adequate. My rig weighting for saltwater for single tank = weighted STA and a total of 10lbs in the pockets. For CCR just 10lbs in the pockets, obviously minus 4 or so lbs for freshwater. the 30lb wing will float my kit at the start of the dive with full tanks.

I mention that because it's the only time I really even think if I have enough wing. the inherent buoyancy of me in my suit even without any gas in it combined with my gear makes the positive buoyancy from the wing mostly irrelevant. 30lbs, 40lbs, etc.. if you are barely floating you in your full kit (with full northwest exposure protection) before a dive then i'd hazard a guess there might be a bit of overweighting in play.

things to keep in mind with BP/W: <stepping up on soap box, apologies ahead of time>

1) shoulder straps don't need to be stupid tight, you don't get the stability of kit from the shoulder straps
2) you don't need quick release to get in and out of kit
3) moar d-rings are not better
4) the more you dive, the less the kit will matter. Backplate and wing is not the holy grail of diving, it's just a very nice tool. I dive with folks in nighthawk BC's that have as good if not better trim and control in water than most BP/W divers. BP/W can give you a 'leg up' but it is not the end all be all.
5) it won't make people like you more or less, or be more or less inclined to dive with you. If it feels like that is the case, then get out and dive with more people. The diver makes the diver, not the gear.

</end soapbox>

RJack already covered the other reasons why I like STA's and plates with deeper v's (such as Halcyon or Halcyon knock offs)

All that said, i have a spare bp/w if you don't find one to try out.

[CaptnJack]

I mention that because it's the only time I really even think if I have enough wing. the inherent buoyancy of me in my suit even without any gas in it combined with my gear makes the positive buoyancy from the wing mostly irrelevant. 30lbs, 40lbs, etc.. if you are barely floating you in your full kit (with full northwest exposure protection) before a dive then i'd hazard a guess there might be a bit of overweighting in play.

If you blow out a neck seal in the water you will very quickly want enough lift to hold you up without much suit buoyancy. 30lbs can be enough if you are lightly weighted or have enough detachable lead. My halcyon wings are supposedly 40lbs but I think that's a bit of a lie. They don't seem that big and actually seem smaller than my (admittedly) small 38lb doubles wing (AL80s in mexico wing).

30lb is enough for most people provided you don't try to put too much lead on the plate/straps with a hp130 tank too. Something a little bigger can be nice, but honestly the measured lifts don't seem to align that well with experience.

The one tidbit of advice I have is to avoid anything OMS, as a company they have zero service, they barely exist. The halcyon, DSS, golem, and Hog wings are all fine in the 30-40lb category. Whatever you can find used (if at all) will work for years and whatever slight differences may exist you'll get used to. The biggest one is the length of inflator (which as noted can be changed if after a few dives its bugging you).

[ljjames]

Yes, what he said re: ditch-able lead. I didn't clarify that the lead in my pockets is removable

[KneeDeep]

VitusVenture, I have the DSS with the 35# wing and the weight plates setup for single tank. For the money (new) I don't think you can break the price. You are more then welcomed to give them a try. You can find BP/W on craigslist, but hey usually go pretty fast.

I would really like to try your J-Type