Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

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Jeff Kruse
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby Jeff Kruse » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:02 am

CaptnJack wrote:Gavin's are also slow, I know I used a friend's in FL a few months ago. 100lbs of slow boo hiss.

The genesis speed control is easily bumped. But its also the only scooter on the market with smooth, continuous, on-the-fly speed control. I intermittently (1 or 2x a dive) bump mine with my light head and usually slow down when I do. I just immediately crank it back up with my thumb and catch up to the cuda which was momentarily faster than me ;)


The Genesis speed control is awesome!!! Best scooter I have ever used.

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ljjames
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby ljjames » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:48 pm

Speed isn't everything...

The faster your scooter goes, the more padding you need 'down there' or a the more necessary as seat harness becomes <grin>

For the most part people don't run their fast scooters fast all the time. Every scooter has a 'sweet spot' with regards to power draw, and what you'll find is that the sweet spot for a lot of the fast scooters happens to be in the range of 'average scooter speed'. What this means is that yes, you've got the extra burst of speed but it will put heavy draw on your battery. On the flip side, if your motor has a sweet spot at average scooter speeds often times what you'll find is that you run that fast scooter at regular speeds and the battery lasts looooong time.

The bottom line though is that your scooters speed isn't determined by its top speed or your ability to stand ball crushing, but by the slowest scooter on your team. Your buddy has a gavin or sierra and that is all they care to own, then get used to flying at sierra or gavin speeds. I promise it is still insanely fun and addicting.
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby McGlencoe » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:42 pm

Thanks for all the great input everyone! This has turned into a real informative thread.


Meaning, I won't take a scooter out to dive in current I can't struggle against, because I don't want to be hosed if the scooter dies/runs out of battery. For me the scooter is a tool to make diving easier and more fun (and I use it a lot for work to help me push big cameras around). Yes there are shore dives that are just prohibitively far away to do swimming, or never have a wide enough current window to dive without some creativity (ride the current out and back) but even in the case of the West Seattle fishing reef, we've done that without scooters.


Thanks Lara, that's how I'm viewing it. Don't plan to hit current, just want to be able to be able to if needed.

At this point in my diving I just want to see all I can. So exploration and topography are what really interests me. Been really getting into bottle hunting too, covering more ground per tank would be a huge bonus.

As far as $$$ layout, I'd rather wait my time, save up the money and get something that will last for years and that I can grow into, instead of a smaller unit that will need to be replaced with something bigger down the road. Plus, as Chef said… speed!

Probably one of the tougher things will be to find a scootering buddy who is interested in the same things I am, LoL!

Spending the play money on a drysuit this month, so if Chef still has that Magnus in another month, it'll be time to talk.

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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby BillZ » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:43 pm

Various musings....
- If you enjoy diving for the exploration, underwater topography and zipping around and having fun a scooter will be the best thing you can own to enhance your diving (other than a boat). If you're a macro photographer and could spend your entire dive in a 10 X 10 box shooting critters a scooter won't really do much for you.

- Once you start scooter diving it's really difficult to go back to kicking dives.

- Dive sites become incredibly small on a scooter. Want to do all three coves on a single dive? That's about a 15 minute run.

- I really love my Cuda for the simple fact that their customer service is top notch. Scooters are limited production toys and things will eventually break and need to be replaced. If I have a problem with the Cuda I can take it up to Will or Max at DiveX and they will fix it right away and not charge me an arm and a leg - and I'm not even the original owner.

- I got a chance to do a long dive on the Genesis and it's really nice but for the price difference I have a few other dive toys I'd rather buy

- I did 25 dives on an Suex xJoy while on a trip to the Red Sea and it really doesn't compare to the Cuda.

- I took the Cuda to Hawaii a few moths ago and it's really it was pretty easy to travel with; Tail section in an Action Packer, tube in my regular luggage and the battery in my carry-on roller bag.

- We took out a bunch of prototype Piranhas last summer and they were a blast! I really like the small form factor and modularity.

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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby ljjames » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:32 pm

CaptnJack wrote:
I have done many divers were a scooter failure = f*cked. You'll learn how to tow in class. You'll also learn how to rig the tow cord and arm distances to maximize efficiency and speed. I see pictures every day where people are pushing the scooter down, slowing themselves down, kicking up silt, and using more battery than necessary.


Richard is correct, there are lots of ways to get home in a pinch... I should have made it clear that 'until you know the risks and solutions' and understand the consequences AKA know your margin :) I've towed or been towed home from a number of dives but for the most part those were all dives that i could still swim up the slope and hail a cab home if need be.
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby diverden » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:31 pm

They're not all slow but those motor brushes seem to scorch pretty easily.

Supposedly you can fly the Genesis batteries... any idea if that is still true? Oh you won't fly a scooter :) It's true that it's a huge PITA to fly a scooter but I've done it, just not a 14 lb li-ion.

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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby CaptnJack » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:12 pm

Gavin's are also slow, I know I used a friend's in FL a few months ago. 100lbs of slow boo hiss.

The genesis speed control is easily bumped. But its also the only scooter on the market with smooth, continuous, on-the-fly speed control. I intermittently (1 or 2x a dive) bump mine with my light head and usually slow down when I do. I just immediately crank it back up with my thumb and catch up to the cuda which was momentarily faster than me ;)
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby diverden » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:53 pm

I agree that given the posts so far, just close your eyes and buy the used Magnus.

Ramblings:
- I can't stand the loud noise the Piranha makes but they are working on it.
- I have Genesis envy.
- I also have Bonex envy. Super quiet and fast. $10k
- Laura makes one very important point: don't scoot where you can't swim your way out of. If that's not an option you then also need to buy a Piranha, Minnus, or Sierra to tow as a backup scooter :)
- I could teach a scooter class but I'm unwilling to re-up my NAUI instructor liability insurance for $650/yr. A class is good but it's pretty common that people just attend workshops or get some of the golden rules drilled into them by some veterans. I would recommend a SOLID class/workshop that rigorously deals with:
Dead cooter
Towing
Towing while sharing air
Run-away scooter
Turning, formations, planning, weighting, balance, rigging, stowing, swimming the scooter, not blowing out visibility with your scooter, locking the trigger when appropriate, etiquette

Controls:
I've heard the speed control on the Genesis can be bumped pretty easily and likes to rotate handle down (and getting it's speed control bumped – there are probably ways to mitigate this.)
I like the Submerge Scooters grip/throttle control. Both Magnus and Minnus are FUN!
Not the biggest fan of DiveX triggers but I have two Cudas so obviously it's not the end of the world. In fact, super fun!

Gavins are cheap but you basically need to become a Gavin service tec and enjoy carrying around 100 pound objects. Roughly same deal for Makos... you basically want to stay away any lead-acid based battery IMHO, not much range and super heavy.

"But I can get a See Doo for 200-300!" Yes, but they are bathtub toys or for free diving.

How I justified a $7000 new Cuda Fury: "It's cheaper than a boat, even if you got the boat for free!"

-Dennis

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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby CaptnJack » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:21 pm

It mostly comes down to budget. Used obviously gets you a better deal but you will probably have to replace SLA or NiMH batteries. Lion probably not as they tend to last longer, which is a good thing as they cost 3x more. For all practical purposes you can't fly a scooter anyway. It kills your whole weight allowance. So plan on shipping it or renting one at your destination if you desire to travel with one.

I have done many divers were a scooter failure = f*cked. You'll learn how to tow in class. You'll also learn how to rig the tow cord and arm distances to maximize efficiency and speed. I see pictures every day where people are pushing the scooter down, slowing themselves down, kicking up silt, and using more battery than necessary.
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby CaptnJack » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:37 am

pensacoladiver wrote:
Until then, Genesis has it cornered in spades.


My Genesis is head and shoulders above any other scooter I've owned (Mako, Gavin, Sierra). The only weak part is the battery clip attachments. And the insane price tag
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby ljjames » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:18 pm

lol... weight is always a concern if you have to carry the beast out of the water ;)
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby Burntchef » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:03 pm

CaptnJack wrote:Chef is not diving anymore, just buy his Magnus for that ridiculously low price of 3k. It not perfect, but no gear is.



Richard is correct, I am out of diving and down to a last few bits of gear. The few downsides to the bigger lithium scooters are no flying and weight.

Weight isnt a concern during use so why care ?

Flying with the scoot also was not an issue, it cam be ground shipped if you wanted.

The magnus was a win for me due to speed, motorcycle style throttle, crazy speed, huge run times, and did I mention balls out speed ?
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby ljjames » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:02 pm

With regards to current and scooter...

Until you are doing dives on the big wrecks or some such and its kind of all or nothing - need the scooter to get down the line, when diving scooters you generally don't plan to do anything you can't swim home from.

Meaning, I won't take a scooter out to dive in current I can't struggle against, because I don't want to be hosed if the scooter dies/runs out of battery. For me the scooter is a tool to make diving easier and more fun (and I use it a lot for work to help me push big cameras around). Yes there are shore dives that are just prohibitively far away to do swimming, or never have a wide enough current window to dive without some creativity (ride the current out and back) but even in the case of the West Seattle fishing reef, we've done that without scooters.
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby CaptnJack » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:46 pm

Chef is not diving anymore, just buy his Magnus for that ridiculously low price of 3k. It not perfect, but no gear is.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.

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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby McGlencoe » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:16 am

This thread is for all models of scooters, this isn't a single supplier only debate…. thanks for your input.

A member on here is selling his Magnus, maybe he'll jump in and give his likes and dislikes (if any) and why is he selling his Magnus.

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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby pensacoladiver » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:03 am

At the risk of being ostracized by the area...

I would not be looking solely at the local supplier.

I dove a Sierra for about 300 dives and loved it ... Until I realized there were scooters out there that don't need the batteries removed to charge them. This is a HUGE pita.

I have owned 2 Magnus and loved them as no battery removal to charge..... Until.

Genesis completely raised the bar. No need to even take the cover off to charge. AND most importantly, NO dynamic shaft seal. The seal is without doubt the weakest point on a scooter when it comes to flooding.

I hope the other big boys come around and start offering magnetic prop coupling as well. The market will be awesome then.

Until then, Genesis has it cornered in spades.


I currently own a Magnus and a Genesis 1200.


Lots of DPV classes going on out here in Hawaii. :-)

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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby ljjames » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:26 pm

I was mentored in my use of scooters, but that was before there were 'DPV classes'. Now there are a handful of great instructors in the area who will be happy to 'show you the tow cord' so to speak.
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby McGlencoe » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:43 pm

No one mentioned training.

Has anyone taken a DPV class?

Is there anyone in the area that teaches a DPV class?

Or did you just start playing around and figure it out?

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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby McGlencoe » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:27 pm

Soooo what about current and scooters?

Which ones seem to be stellar and not so stellar?

The speed difference between the Sierra and the Cuda 400 (and older C650) is 100' ft/min.
Sierra: 182ft/min
Cuda 400: 266 ft/min
Pirahnna: 233 ft/min
Magnus: 250 ft/min

Though I assume thrust is the bigger spec to look at when it comes to fighting current:
Sierra: 35 lbs
New Pirahnna: 63 lbs
Cuda 400: 71 lbs
Magnus: 64 lbs

Weight- Gotta carry that thing to the water!
Sierra: 37 lbs
Cuda 400: 42 lbs
Pirahnna: 24 lbs (34 lbs - P2)
Magnus: 49 lbs

Run time at cruise speed-
Sierra: 65 min
Cuda 400: 111 min
Pirahnna: 120 min (240 min - P2)
Magnus: 1-4 hours (no listed time for cruise speed)


*** Edited and moved things around for clarity***
Last edited by McGlencoe on Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jeff Pack
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby Jeff Pack » Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:16 pm

I have a Sierra with lithium batteries, as well as a Long Nose Sierra with dual lithiums. Each configuration giving me 2 and 4 hours of runtime respectively.

We have moved largely from the short nose to the long nose for the runtime. But being able to configure for the dive plan is a nice plus.

I'd say 90% of our dives are scooter dives, but thats the factor that most of our dives are 200ft and deeper, and with the exception of a few places, its tough to get that depth fin kicking. Plus the extended range has allowed us to do dives previously only thought to be only boat dives (Like Pulalli Point for example).

Sierra's are a pretty bombproof scooter, and just go and go and go. With the introduction of the Piranha, they've dropped in price in the used market.

Yes, there are scooters that go faster, but in 15-20ft viz (and sometimes less) faster isnt a good thing.

Only downside with the Sierra, is if you get caught in a bad current, you'll be wanting a cuda. So far thats only been once, but as I was fin kicking and full throttle just to maintain position, I was wishing I'd have had a cuda.
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby ljjames » Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:35 am

I am currently riding a SUEX Xjoy 37, I have a Halcyon T16 (a rebranded SUEX) and a mini Cuda.

I use a scooter on pretty much every single dive and its one of the tools I rarely leave the beach without. My cameras are all somewhat cumbersome and the scooter makes for a great camera transport device.

My preference is the SUEX XJoy 37 for a few reasons. It has the Lithium pack so runs for-ever, it is a few inches shorter than the T16 so it is easier for me to get into the water. The 4 bladed prop just kicks ass, it is pretty much the perfect speed for comfort, stability and utility.

From a filming point of view, the variable speed control is absolutely ideal, I can dial it up and down and fine tune it to be perfect for the tracking or panning shots. It starts at exactly the speed I want it to depending on the situation. But there are two more "best parts" about the SUEX scooters and they are the shrouded trigger and the 'off' switch, which make me feel very secure that there won't be any horsing around when I'm swinging it back into position or not paying super close attention to it.

There is nothing I dislike about the XJoy 37. Well, maybe there is the thing about it being so perfectly balanced out of the box that I have to take care to make my camera neutral when I mount it on top. Even with the fresh to saltwater plate out, it doesn't have a lot of leeway to float a heavy camera or camera mount.
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby LCF » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:46 am

I have a Sierra, and like YellowEye, I don't use it much. But it is VERY useful for getting to some sites which are not practical from shore by kicking, like the Alki Fishing Reef and Northwest Island, and I do use it for insurance against current at places like Day Island Wall. There isn't anything about the scooter I dislike, except its size and weight. If I were going to buy a new scooter today, I'd buy a Piranha (but man, are they expensive!).
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Re: Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby YellowEye » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:52 pm

Hi
I have a Sierra scooter. I can't say I use it much, it's not so compatible with photography nor most of my dive buddies, who don't have them. There are some sites where it can be useful or fun though, but I find it more *useful* than fun because often viz limits your speed or free-spiritedness (if you want to keep an eye on your buddy). I found a sixgill once with the help of one though, which was cool, and you can reach some far sites easier. I'd suggest a free diving orca monofin for high speed fun, or camera for all-around fun :)

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Scooters. What do you have? Your likes and dislikes?

Postby McGlencoe » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:11 pm

Never tried one before, looks like fun.

What brand do you have?

What are your likes and dislikes?

Would you get the same scooter again or something different?

Who did you take your training through?


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