Tanks-steel vs. stainless?

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scottsax
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Tanks-steel vs. stainless?

Post by scottsax » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:43 pm

I need tanks to complete my basic gear configuration. I've dove (dived? doven?) on AL80s, and steel tanks in a variety of sizes. Since I'm a relative newb, I think the higher capacity of steel tanks plus the negative buoyancy at the end of the dive suit me better.

So the question is-galvanized or stainless? What's better and why? Cost doesn't matter so much to me as getting the right gear. I bow to your expertise....

Cheers,

Scott
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
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Post by Dmitchell » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:16 pm

Scott,

There's no such thing as Stainless Scuba tanks. Pretty much at the present the Steel tank of choice is Hot-dipped Galvanized. Though I have several Fabers which are painted and they are doing fine as well.

Dave
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Post by scottsax » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:28 pm

So what you're saying is this guy

http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/spo/421543478.html

doesn't know what he's talking about? I'm OK with that, but I could've sworn I saw that verbiage used somewhere else, too. I used to sell stainless cookware and appliances, and a stainless scuba tank seemed like it would be crazy expensive.... #-o

Thanks for the answer, i'll go back to work now.....
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

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Post by Dmitchell » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:32 pm

That's exactly what I'm saying!

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Post by scottsax » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:03 pm

I hate it when that happens....
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

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Post by dsteding » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:07 pm

scottsax wrote:So what you're saying is this guy

http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/spo/421543478.html

doesn't know what he's talking about? I'm OK with that, but I could've sworn I saw that verbiage used somewhere else, too. I used to sell stainless cookware and appliances, and a stainless scuba tank seemed like it would be crazy expensive.... #-o

Thanks for the answer, i'll go back to work now.....


That guy is full of crap.

First, I am unaware of a 75 cf steel tank of any type. And, no, stainless isn't used.

I bet this is an old 72 of some sort. If it is, at $160 it is way too expensive.

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Post by scottsax » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:22 pm

dsteding wrote:
That guy is full of crap.

First, I am unaware of a 75 cf steel tank of any type. And, no, stainless isn't used.

I bet this is an old 72 of some sort. If it is, at $160 it is way too expensive.


OK, so that's brings up a good question-how much should I expect to pay for used tanks with a current VIP & hydro?
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

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Re: Tanks-steel vs. stainless?

Post by Pez7378 » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:30 pm

scottsax wrote:Cost doesn't matter so much to me as getting the right gear. I bow to your expertise..........OK, so that's brings up a good question-how much should I expect to pay..............

Cheers,

Scott


Well, I have a PST HP100 Just vip'd current hydro never been under water, and its full of air. if it's the right gear :book: , and cost doesn't matter,:smt119 make me an offer.

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Re: Tanks-steel vs. stainless?

Post by scottsax » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:37 pm

Pez7378 wrote:
Well, I have a PST HP100 Just vip'd current hydro never been under water, and its full of air. if it's the right gear :book: , and cost doesn't matter,:smt119 make me an offer.


That's my point, though.... I'd hate to either insult someone with an offer too low or get taken advantage of by offering too much....

:prayer: Need more knowledge first....
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

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Post by dsteding » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:50 pm

scottsax wrote:
OK, so that's brings up a good question-how much should I expect to pay for used tanks with a current VIP & hydro?


My usual rule of thumb is that scuba gear should be priced at half of full retail used. If in great condition a bit more, if not in great condition, a bit less. Steel cylinders hold their value a bit more.

Galvanized, high pressure tanks are $330-$390 new, and carry a premium used because they are the nicest of steel tanks. So, I'd say $250 or thereabouts for such tanks make sense, if 1-2 years old, O2 clean, and with current VIP. Maybe more like $200-$225 if they are almost out of their first hydro, less if out of hydro or beat up.

LP tanks retail around $275 or so. Used I think they are worth $150 to $175 or so.

Remember, there are lots of hidden costs in buying used steel tanks. Expect to spend $40-$60 on a hydro/vip/02 cleaning, so factor that into what you are willing to pay. I'd get any tank that was going to see high fractions of O2 cleaned before I'd use it-you just don't know the history. Be sure to have someone take a look inside, some abused steel tanks can get mighty rusty . . . which would add the need to tumble them.

For what it is worth, I've paid as little as $40 for used AL80s out of hydro, and ~$40 for 72s in hydro with DIN valves. The latter tanks took me about $40 each to get into regular service (and I'm selling them as doubles now, just not using them).

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Post by scottsax » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:58 pm

dsteding wrote:Remember, there are lots of hidden costs in buying used steel tanks. Expect to spend $40-$60 on a hydro/vip/02 cleaning, so factor that into what you are willing to pay. I'd get any tank that was going to see high fractions of O2 cleaned before I'd use it-you just don't know the history.


Is the O2 cleaning something that's done to prepare the tank for nitrox? Can I wait and do it after I get my nitrox cert?
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

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Post by dsteding » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:39 pm

scottsax wrote:Is the O2 cleaning something that's done to prepare the tank for nitrox? Can I wait and do it after I get my nitrox cert?


Yes and yes.

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Post by Burntchef » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:55 pm

dsteding wrote:
scottsax wrote:
OK, so that's brings up a good question-how much should I expect to pay for used tanks with a current VIP & hydro?



Galvanized, high pressure tanks are $330-$390 new, and carry a premium used because they are the nicest of steel tanks. So, I'd say $250 or thereabouts for such tanks make sense, if 1-2 years old, O2 clean, and with current VIP. Maybe more like $200-$225 if they are almost out of their first hydro, less if out of hydro or beat up.

.



i just sold a worthington hp100 in vip and hydro for 225, not nitrox clean though. i would of asked 250 if it was o2 clean. just another benchmark for you. there are 2 sets of twins here in this section for sale, you could easily split them up and sell the hardware easy to make back a nice chunk of change, then be left with 2 tanks for a killer deal.

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Post by Aquanautchuck » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:53 pm

.[/quote]


i just sold a worthington hp100 in vip and hydro for 225, not nitrox clean though. i would of asked 250 if it was o2 clean. just another benchmark for you. there are 2 sets of twins here in this section for sale, you could easily split them up and sell the hardware easy to make back a nice chunk of change, then be left with 2 tanks for a killer deal.[/quote]

If I recall he said he was a newbie and consumption is a issue usually. Steel 72's would not do him much good unless he left them doubled.

My recommendation is to buy good used or new hp 100's. New they come O2 clean and would last him a lifetime if he took care of them. Later if he wanted to he could double them.

Dang they have gone up. The last set I bought 5 1/2 years ago from UWS were $275 each new.
Charles

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Post by cardiver » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:04 pm

I got my x-130's brand new for 300.00 \:D/
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Post by gomi_otaku » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:48 pm

I got my 2 HP100 Norton tanks at UWS Dive Fair last year for $240 each. They had 110s this year for $275 IIRC. It's worth waiting another year to save that kind of money.
gomi_

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Post by Burntchef » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:48 pm

actually i was referring to johns twins he is selling, lp 98s or the mondo 108s. either would be a great tank for him. and the price is right. the 98s are nitrox clean allready and i believe both sets are in vip and hydro. all you need to do is have a shop break them up, i wouldnt be suprised if john has the old valves for them too.

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Post by Burntchef » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:00 pm

check this one out

http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/spo/420167821.html

" ONE FULL SIZE AND ONE HALF SIZE " #-o [/u]

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Post by Aquanautchuck » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:23 pm

They look like a al 80 and a al 50.
Charles

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Post by scottsax » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:46 am

Burntchef wrote:check this one out

http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/spo/420167821.html

" ONE FULL SIZE AND ONE HALF SIZE " #-o


To be fair to the craigslist guy, he did say he didn't know anything about them. I think steel 100s are the way I want to go. Worst case scenario, I end up with too many tanks, if such a thing is possible, and I have to share them with buddies. \:D/

Thanks for all the help and the patience y'all! :prayer:

Now I just need to go get in the water!
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

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OK one more tank question

Post by scottsax » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:56 am

Last one I swear. What's the difference between LP and HP steel tanks? Obviously the fill pressure, but what does that MEAN, exactly. A HP 100 holds 100cf at what, 3200 psi, and an LP108 holds 108cf at ~2600 psi? In practical terms, what does that mean to me?

Underwater skills are important, but there really outta be a book out there with THIS kind of info in it. Maybe there is, but I thought the PADI books were a little light on this kind of technical information.

Thanks again,

Scott
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

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Post by mancub » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:59 am

Scott
I am sort of a newb as well...but the main reasons I'd choose between LP and HP steel tanks are the weight and size (affecting trim), and the fact that my first stage has a yoke valve. I'll most likely get a DIN valve setup eventually, and dive high pressure tanks, but maybe not for a while, when I want to make the upgrade to duals if it is the right choice.
Also, depending on where you get air fills, you can get LP tanks filled closer to where they should be. A compressor in a smaller shop might not be able to fill to the higher pressure, a hot fill maybe.
If you have DIN or go that way, you can easily convert to yoke, so I am told.(traveling, al80s with yoke you'll most likely run into)
I wouldn't want to go the other way, if that is even possible. Seems to me that because a DIN valve screws in, it could be "safer" and less prone to o-ring failure or something. I am no expert though.
SO, we all want more air, and bottom time. A high pressure tank might accomodate that goal, while not being quite as cumbersome as an LP. Hopefully one of the veterans on here will either expand on what I said, or correct it...
Cheers

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Post by scottsax » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:11 pm

mancub wrote:the main reasons I'd choose between LP and HP steel tanks are the weight and size (affecting trim), and the fact that my first stage has a yoke valve. I'll most likely get a DIN valve setup eventually, and dive high pressure tanks, but maybe not for a while, when I want to make the upgrade to duals if it is the right choice.

So what you're saying is that HP tanks typically have DIN valves? A screw-in yoke adapter is pretty easy to come by.
mancub wrote:A compressor in a smaller shop might not be able to fill to the higher pressure, a hot fill maybe.

I don't know what a hot fill is, but shouldn't any LDS be able to fill a HP tank?
mancub wrote:we all want more air, and bottom time. A high pressure tank might accomodate that goal, while not being quite as cumbersome as an LP.

My air consumption goes down with each dive. I play sax, so breath control is a skill I already have. Of course, I could quit smoking, too.... ](*,)
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

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Post by Dmitchell » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:45 pm

Anything above 14.7psi is High Pressure!

LP fill pressures are 2250, 2400 or 2640 depending on the tank. So a LP 108 would be stamped 2400+ which means 108cf at 2640 the pl+ means you can over fill 10% (confused yet)

HP would be 3442 or 3500 depending on the tank. an HP 100 would be full 100cf at 3500 or 3442 depending on the tank.

Anything less than 3500 can be yoke or DIN. The 3500 tanks should have a 7/8" neck vs the 3/4" the rest have and are required to be DIN.

Most people are going to recommend DIN all the way around.

HP tanks are harder to fill than LP you have to be more on the ball about filling slow or topping off because they heat up when being filled. After filling they cool and the pressure drops. So it's more common to get a short fill on a HP tank.

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Post by scottsax » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:22 pm

:pale:

I understand that cubic feet is the VOLUME of air the tank holds. Psi is the delivery pressure of that volume of air? The density of that volume of air? The fill pressure (and if so, what does that mean?) All things being equal, is bottom time a combination of cf & psi?

](*,)

I was told there would be no math....
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

Want to know where I'm performing? Check out my Facebook fan page!

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