Grey Market Equip Problems?

[diver-dad]

While cruising around looking at what mfgs have for equipment this year, I came across this on the Aqualung web site that sends a broadside into Leisure Pro.

http://www.aqualung.com/us/content/view/265/

I'm wondering ...
- Have you ever had any issues with "grey market" goods / equip bought off the internet?
- Any lessons learned to share?

FWIW - My approach is that all important stuff (esp life support) I buy at the LDS, but if I'm looking for a particular special doo-dad that they don't carry, I shop around...

[Maverick]

don't buy grey market uunless you are prepared to buy again, I mean when it breaks you are up creek without a paddle. Buy at a shop, become friends with the staff. It will pay off tenfold, rather than saving few bucks.
Benjamin

[Joshua Smith]

don't buy grey market uunless you are prepared to buy again, I mean when it breaks you are up creek without a paddle. Buy at a shop, become friends with the staff. It will pay off tenfold, rather than saving few bucks.
Benjamin

Agreed- If you want a doo-dad, there's nothing wrong with ordering it from a company like liesure pro or Scuba toys, but I make a point of trying to buy it from my dive shop first- they can usually get close to the same price. If it's something they just don't carry, I might order it off the net, but I always go to my shop first, where I can get after sale serviceand support for it- especially important for big-ticket items like regs, lights, and computers.

[airsix]

So Aqualung wants you to play by their rules, but it's not always the rosy picture they paint for you. For my first reg I bought the top of the line from U.S. Divers (now Aqualung) and my "lifetime warranty" and "free parts for life" eventually turned into "we no longer support your regulator". So much for buying a high-end reg to insure longevity. This time I bought Apeks because they are so ubiquitous I ought to be able to get parts forever. From *somebody*...whether Aqualung stiffs me again or not. (note that my beef is with Aqualung, not the LDS')


-Ben

[Bluesman]

About 6 months ago I bought an Aqua-Lung Titan LX 1st/2nd stage and Calypso Octo from Leisure Pro. Recently I had a LDS Aqua-Lung dealer do a environmental kit upgrade on the first stage. All parts work well. No questions of where it was bought. I am sure I entered the regs into the Aqua-Lung warranty registry too. Nothing or no one came back asking a lot of questions.
I am thinking there is more to the story between Aqua-Lung and Leisure Pro.

Bluesman

[nice-diver]

aqualung owns apex

[CaptnJack]

I am thinking there is more to the story between Aqua-Lung and Leisure Pro.

You mean like the fact that LP has the latest and greatest Aqualung and Scubapro models before "authorized" dealers do??

There is no "grey" market, the whole industry is a stinkin shame. Both of these manufacturers (in particular) pump excess stock into LP and other gear "outlets" to maintain their production and smooth out their volumes. They know that certain divers want a "deal" and they provide a mechanism to get those deals, sans warranty. Then they hype the warranties and "claim" to only provide products to authorized dealers as if the regs at LP aren't brand new and identical. The whole business model Aqualung and SP have adopted is technically illegal because they dictate the prices authorized dealers may sell at. And they also officially restrict internet sales. Of course their other hand is trying to capitalize on the capabilities of divers to price compare via the internet and LP fulfills that. The whole scam is just not quite blatent and large enough to raise the eyebrows of the federal trade commission.

If you don't care about a lifetime parts warranty just buy on price. If you do, buy at an authorized dealer. If you don't care about either get something used and have a technician you trust overhaul it.

[airsix]

aqualung owns apex

Right. What I'm saying is that there are so many Apeks regs out there that share a common parts set that even if Aqualung drops support at some point we will still be okay. Like the product, hate the company.

I agree with CaptainJack. My field is finance and economics. Free market economies work very well until you put artificial barriers and stimuli in the formula. Then it just goes to crap.

-Ben

[Jeff Kruse]

If you buy from Lesure pro and have a problem then send it back to Lesure pro. I had trouble with my D3 (they are known for problems). Every time I sent it back to LP they quickly sent me a new one. I have had good service from LP. Their prices are almost half of what local shops charge.

[Sounder]

I agree that ordering from a real shop is the way to go, but there is also a difference between LP and Scuba Toys. Scuba Toys is a real dive shop with a legit store front in Texas and they have a very strong internet presence. They're an authorized dealer for everything they sell so everything they sell comes with full warranties.

I don't know the specifics on Leisure Pro's status as a dealer for various manufacturers, but they've definitely got the gear to sell so it's coming from somewhere. I just wanted to ensure that Scuba Toys, a legit local dive shop in Texas with an internet presence and which was featured in the Wall Street Journal regarding unconventional new marketing programs, didn't get shoved into the same category as Leisure Pro.

I soon will be placing a rather large order with NWSD - take care of your LDS and they will definitely take care of you.

[Nwbrewer]

I soon will be placing a rather large order with NWSD - take care of your LDS and they will definitely take care of you.

Seriously? YOU need MORE gear???? Are you shooting for an even dozen HP130's?

I've found that shopping around to the local stores, checking prices on the internet and taking the total cost of ownership in to account makes buying from a good LDS worth the small amount I would have saved on the initial purchase not really worth it for most things I buy.

I have bought some stuff used that was a good deal, and then there's the stuff I've made....

[Grateful Diver]

This whole "gray market" thing is a crock. As Richard pointed out, Aqualung and ScubaPro products often show up at LeisurePro before many of the "authorized" dealers get them. These are real products ... not imitations. They have serial numbers on them ... so if AL or SP were serious in their statements they could easily track down the sources of these sales, and stop the flow of their product to these vendors. But they don't, because it is very profitable for them to allow the problem to exist, and let their customers deal with the consequences.

When I purchase scuba equipment, I'm going to do business with whomever can provide me the products I want at a reasonable (not necessarily the lowest) price, and offer customer service at a level that I find acceptable.

If that's a local dealer, great ... I'd prefer having a personal relationship with the people I do business with.

On the other hand, some of the worst deals and customer service I've ever received came from local scuba shops.

Sometimes it's not totally their fault ... when products fail to perform as advertised, the LDS is often at the mercy of the manufacturer or distributor of the product. Customer service from some companies is notoriously poor, and if you've just purchased a drysuit from a company that's going to give you a runaround when the suit you receive is deficient, or not what you ordered, then the LDS owner is in a very difficult place. He either has to eat the cost of the suit, or just go along with whatever the manufacturer dictates. That's rarely to the customer's advantage or satisfaction. Lesson learned there is don't buy goods from those manufacturers. Unfortunately, many LDS's only carry specific brands and if you choose to do business with the LDS you're pretty much limited to buying brands that they carry.

The current scuba equipment business model is not very customer-centric. Some equipment manufacturers mandate what prices their "authorized" dealers must charge for the product ... all the while selling to unauthorized dealers who undercut the ones they're mandating price controls to. That hurts the local shop ... but it's profitable business for the manufacturer because it allows them to weasel out of the warranty.

Many LDS's hurt themselves by how they operate. I've waited sometimes months for products I've ordered through an LDS, when I could've gotten the exact same product within a week or two from an Internet vendor ... and at a lower price. When customers order a product, there's a pretty good bet that time to delivery is important to them. So why would they want to pay more and wait longer?

Then there's this whole "loyalty" notion ... which is just silly. Let's say you're a "regular" at a given shop but decide for some reason that you want to buy something they don't carry. So you go off to the shop down the street who does and make your purchase. Next time you walk into your favorite shop it's like somebody tossed icicles in the door. What's up with that? Does QFC give a crap if you shop at Albertsons? Do they treat you different, or raise their prices on you because you decided once in a while to buy something from the other guy? I never did understand that mentality.

I'm all for supporting local businesses ... would love to. But as a customer, I have certain expectations. I want to be treated like my patronage matters to the shop owner. I want a quality product at a reasonable price ... doesn't have to be the lowest price, if I feel like I'm getting something intangible like decent customer service or even a place to go schmooze and talk about diving once in a while. And I want support for my purchased products when they fail to perform as expected or need scheduled maintenance. When a dive shop can provide those things, they'll get my business happily. But in the absense of any of those things, I have no qualms about ordering off the Internet. And you don't have to buy gray market ... nowadays you can often go directly to a manufacturer or distributor and order the products you want.

LDS's who recognize the realities of today's market will thrive ... and to be honest, many do and are successful. Those who don't will go out of business. But nobody should be under the illusion that supporting a poorly run business will somehow make them better ... it just prolongs the inevitable, and costs the customer more money. I'm happy to give my LDS first shot at any of my purchases, but they still have to live up to my criteria ... or I'll take my money elsewhere.

Oh, and FWIW - ScubaToys is an authorized vendor of every product they sell. They are a real dive shop. They might not be LOCAL ... but they invariably supply everything I mentioned above to their customers ... which is why they are so successful. Same goes for several other scuba vendors with large internet presences.

There's way more choices out there than SP and AL ... and most of them have no qualms about letting their vendors sell product on the Internet. Most realize that in this day and age, that's how a lot of people prefer to do their shopping.

Welcome to the 21st century ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Sounder]

I soon will be placing a rather large order with NWSD - take care of your LDS and they will definitely take care of you.

Seriously? YOU need MORE gear???? Are you shooting for an even dozen HP130's?

Are you suggesting that six 130s among a fleet of other HP tanks isn't enough?! I AGREE!!

Well, for the first time in quite a while, my order won't include tanks. I've decided I can't live without an x-scooter with a double-instrument mount, 2 bottom timers, 2 SK7 compasses, a DSS Torus 49# wing, DSS small SMB, and a variety of other misc. gear.

[Grateful Diver]

Sweet! I need more scooter buddies ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[sheahanmcculla]

[quote="Grateful Diver"] I'm happy to give my LDS first shot at any of my purchases, but they still have to live up to my criteria ... or I'll take my money elsewhere.[quote]


You spoke my thoughts. So many times I have wanted to order something to support the LDS, but they make it out to be a hassle, and it takes forever....and ever. Also I'v been told at shops that "price is not an issue when it comes to gear and classes for customers" B.S. It's all about price for me! It's the most expensive hobby I have ever had.

[smike]

This whole "gray market" thing is a crock.
When I purchase scuba equipment, I'm going to do business with whomever can provide me the products I want at a reasonable (not necessarily the lowest) price, and offer customer service at a level that I find acceptable.

... Some equipment manufacturers mandate what prices their "authorized" dealers must charge for the product ... all the while selling to unauthorized dealers who undercut the ones they're mandating price controls to. That hurts the local shop ... but it's profitable business for the manufacturer because it allows them to weasel out of the warranty.

Welcome to the 21st century ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I work for a manufacturer of non-diving stuff, and there is a tiered price structure to our customers. One of the first rules is don't compete against yourself. That happens when you have multiple distributors, that have the same potential customer. I have a feeling that Aqualungs statement is there to appease one set of their distributors (the LDS), who feel that Aqualung is shafting them while leisure is selling at prices that are lower than they can sell for.

In reality, with Aqualung products, it appears you are buying the warranty when you buy through the LDS. If you want the warranty, buy there. If you don't want the warranty, dont.

Go buy a iPod or DVD player, and any respectable shop is going to try to sell you the "extended warranty". Do you buy the extended warranty? I don't believe it is worth it, they are expecting to make money on it.

This whole "gray market" thing is a crock.

On the other hand, I am so glad there is an LDS that I can get my tanks filled at, look at equipment, and there are other tangible benefits. But I looked at a pocket for my drysuit yesterday, and yes, it was a good one. but $135 ??? It wasn't that good. I don't want to buy the shop, unless I get to keep it.

S'Mike

[CaptnJack]

I work for a manufacturer of non-diving stuff, and there is a tiered price structure to our customers. One of the first rules is don't compete against yourself. That happens when you have multiple distributors, that have the same potential customer. I have a feeling that Aqualungs statement is there to appease one set of their distributors (the LDS), who feel that Aqualung is shafting them while leisure is selling at prices that are lower than they can sell for.

Its a bone Aqualung (and Scubapro) attempt to throw the LDSes. Then they turn around and screw the LDS with fixed pricing and restrictions on internet sales. Of course all the while Aqualung and SP also essentially sell direct through outlets like LP. There are quite a few LDS places that would like to broaden their customer bases via the internet, and are actually willing compete on price. But their sales/distribution agreements get yanked by these manufacturers if they don't play ball.

[airsix]

There are quite a few LDS places that would like to broaden their customer bases via the internet, and are actually willing compete on price. But their sales/distribution agreements get yanked by these manufacturers if they don't play ball.

So lets encourage the LDS' to dump the big guys and go to brands like DiveRite and Salvo. I'm in.

-Ben

[sheahanmcculla]

Me too, I hate Socialism!

[CaptnJack]

So lets encourage the LDS' to dump the big guys and go to brands like DiveRite and Salvo. I'm in.

-Ben

Already with you there mate. Unless I find what I'm looking for used and can service it myself or get it serviced locally.