Good info for the DIR types

[dsteding]

I'm so glad you are, and as soon as I get my suit back, I'm coming out to one of the Tuesday Tweeks!

Cheers!
:occasion5:

And we're honestly stoked that you are going to come out and dive with us. Especially because you spelled "Tweek" right (as in Tuesday Weekly, I just got that explained to me).

[Sockmonkey]

And we're honestly stoked that you are going to come out and dive with us. Especially because you spelled "Tweek" right (as in Tuesday Weekly, I just got that explained to me).

Wow. "Tuesday Weekly" I had no idea. Somehow I thought it had something to do with tweaking skills...

It really doesn't have anything to do with that kid from Southpark who drank too much coffee?

[dsteding]

And we're honestly stoked that you are going to come out and dive with us. Especially because you spelled "Tweek" right (as in Tuesday Weekly, I just got that explained to me).

Wow. "Tuesday Weekly" I had no idea. Somehow I thought it had something to do with tweaking skills...

It really doesn't have anything to do with that kid from Southpark who drank too much coffee?

Hilarious, I was thinking of him too. But, alas, no, much more benign then that . . .

Although I bet there were times during my tech class this weekend where I was so stressed I was doing a reasonable impression of Tweek Tweak underwater.

[Peter Guy]

Admittedly this is NOT related to the OP -- but it may be related to the thread's title and the following is prompted by some of the responses:

(Disclaimer -- I have been infected with the DIR virus but I continue to try to ward off succumbing totally to the illness -- so take this from a still somewhat DIR agnostic.)

I originally was taught to dive at WSU in a 16 week course over 40 years ago. The things that were drilled into me were: 1. Always dive with a buddy -- she is your safety net; and 2. Take care of your buddy because she is your safety net; 3. Don't ever get into the water without doing a complete, head-to-toe equipment check with your buddy.

With that in mind, I'm trying to understand what some people (some on this thread) "don't like" about "DIR Diving" (and I'll be the second to admit I'm not sure I can really define "DIR Diving").

With as much specificity as possible, please explain what you think is "Not Right" about what you believe to be the "DIR Way" of diving?

I'm really just curious?

OK -- I'll start -- (a) I don't like the dissing of dive computers -- hey, they all use dive computers but they just call them bottom timers (or desk tops when they "cut tables") -- seems like a stupid distinction to me

(b) I don't like the dissing of the training by other agencies as not being "rigorous" enough -- even if the "dissing" is "in jest" -- the fifteenth time it's been said to you it is no longer funny (if it ever was). The corollary to this is that training doesn't have to "be tough" to be good.

OK -- those are my gripes.

But note, Neither of these relate to how a dive is planned or executed -- and isn't that the "proof of the pudding?"

[CaptnJack]

OK -- I'll start -- (a) I don't like the dissing of dive computers -- hey, they all use dive computers but they just call them bottom timers (or desk tops when they "cut tables") -- seems like a stupid distinction to me

(b) I don't like the dissing of the training by other agencies as not being "rigorous" enough -- even if the "dissing" is "in jest" -- the fifteenth time it's been said to you it is no longer funny (if it ever was). The corollary to this is that training doesn't have to "be tough" to be good.

OK -- those are my gripes.

But note, Neither of these relate to how a dive is planned or executed -- and isn't that the "proof of the pudding?"

I've tried to avoid these kinds of discussions on this board... but here goes.

Re: #1
I dive with DIR people from all over (LA, Germany, NL, Poles). We all run minimum and obligatory deco the same way. Not based on a computer which does not know us. If we each had a cochran, a suunto and nitek (nevermind tables with varying gradient factors) how would we dive together as a team on a common schedule? Bottom timers are the lowest common denominator. Easy, cheap, simple, adaptable. You can spend more but there's no real reason to since we never do anything like the deco in computer algorithms anyway.

In Cave2 the deco plans were particluarly ad hoc because we had to get in the water to let all the tanks cool (since it was June in MX, sometimes by up to 300psi), then do the gas/deco plans based on our consumption, average depth, and what we actually had available (stage or no stage). Nothing a computer would have helped with at all.

Re: #2
Many conventional (mostly recreational but some tech) agencies discuss how you are only qualified for the conditions you were trained in. So benign easy water = what you are trained for. DIR training is not like that. They want you competent for any conditions. Train hard, dive easy. So they make life hard for you so that you are trained beyond the worst that you could possibly expect on a dive. Thus you don't have a "school of hard knocks" post class. That school may take years to show up but if you dive enough and under varying conditions it shows up eventually.

I take training to identify weak spots in my diving. Not to give me a card or make me feel good about myself. You need a thick skin to enjoy DIR training. I didn't really enjoy Tech1, but Cave1 and 2 have been a blast. The proof is not in the "normal" dives but when a dive is totally effed and you get out talking about how much fun it was anyway.

[airsix]

Great post Peter, and the only one so far that has addressed my question (3rd post in this thread).

-Ben

[Joshua Smith]

Great post Peter, and the only one so far that has addressed my question (3rd post in this thread).

-Ben

Ah, come on- I thought I answered your question yesterday:

Look, here's how I feel about it: DIR is a perfectly valid training system, with an admirable safety record. Nobody can say it doesn't work, because, obviously, it does. It does not, however, work for me.

[Dusty2]

Simple really, Your way is right and my way is wrong. It is not DIR I object to it is that way of thinking whatever it involves.

100% dir is probably the safest way there is to dive but it takes away from my freedom of choice and I cannot accept that. The team mentality in any endeavor is just not my idea of fun. It is not a question of right and wrong. I refuse to make that kind of distinction about the choices of others. I just don't want others making my decisions for me.

I hope all can accept this without offense or rankor because It is not meant as anti DIR or a negative comment about anyones choice to follow this diving style. It is simply my feelings in this discussion.

[Tom Nic]

OK -- I'll start -- (a) I don't like the dissing of dive computers .....

(b) I don't like the dissing of the training by other agencies ......

OK -- those are my gripes.

But note, Neither of these relate to how a dive is planned or executed -- and isn't that the "proof of the pudding?"

I've tried to avoid these kinds of discussions on this board... but here goes.

Re: #1

Re: #2


I take training to identify weak spots in my diving. Not to give me a card or make me feel good about myself.

Like Cap'n Jack I too am trying to avoid these kind of discussions on this board and elsewhere.... but here goes me too!

Just an observation - Peter mentions "not liking the dissing...." and the response is basically an explanation for the dissing. Again, this is not a criticism directed at DIR / UTD for the way they choose to dive - about which there is much that is great and that IMO should be emulated - it is the dissing. I know lots of DIR divers, many of whom are my friends. I don't have a problem with their style of diving. I happily learn much from them, and enjoy most of their company. It is still the "attitude" of there being only one right way to do things and that anyone who doesn't do it that way is a stroke. I admit that "attitude" is a VERY subjective term, and people misread each other all the time. I have seen people working REALLY hard to overcome that - for which I have nothing but praise. But when push comes to shove some seem to just not be able to help themselves... the dissing continues. And it was the dissing that Peter had reference to, NOT whether it was OK or not to use computers or train with other agencies. And that is not "yesterday's news" or just old internet wars. That is today, now. IMO, if anyone wants to understand the tension about DIR / UTD that's it in a nutshell. When someone is compelled to use the phrase "DIR agnostic" I think it illustrates that we are out of the area of opinion and moving closer to religion. And if you think I'm going to far by making the comparison - well, just witness the evangelistic fervor on both sides.

And, BTW, as long as I'm sticking my neck out - the attitude of the anti-DIR folks is just as bad sometimes, even if somewhat understandable (i.e. getting sideways about the claim that if certain folks are "doing it right" then everyone else is by implication "doing it wrong").

I applaud the efforts at conversation, civility, diving together, hanging out, and sharing libations together! :occasion5: (That's me on the right, along with Ben, with our non-alchoholic beverages and anyone who cares to clink glasses on the left with their beverage of choice!)

-Respectfully,

Tom Nic

[Pez7378]

I love each and everyone of you equally! :occasion5:

[Dusty2]

Nicely said Tom! You read my mind :occasion5:

[airsix]

Ah, come on- I thought I answered your question yesterday:

<pirate voice>
Beggin' yer pardon, Cap'n. Right Ye are, and I meant no offense, sir.
</pirate voice>

-Ben

[Tom Nic]

I love each and everyone of you equally! :occasion5:

WooHoo! NOW we're talking! Me Too! :occasion5:

[spatman]

I love each and everyone of you equally! :occasion5:

joe's gonna be jealous when he reads this....

[Tom Nic]

I love each and everyone of you equally! :occasion5:

joe's gonna be jealous when he reads this....

Uh Oh... we have a massive thread hi-jack brewing on aisle 3... if you're not up to it you better take cover!

[scottsax]

joe's gonna be jealous when he reads this....

See, I thought it, but I wasn't gonna go there again....

[spatman]

I love each and everyone of you equally! :occasion5:

joe's gonna be jealous when he reads this....

Uh Oh... we have a massive thread hi-jack brewing on aisle 3... if you're not up to it you better take cover!

sorry, everyone. sometimes i just can't help myself...

now back to our regularly scheduled civil discourse, which i am very interested in, by the way.

[Penopolypants]

I love each and everyone of you equally! :occasion5:

joe's gonna be jealous when he reads this....

I know, first poor Joe has to deal with Pez's "post failures" and now this. ](*,)

[Sounder]

Simple really, Your way is right and my way is wrong. It is not DIR I object to it is that way of thinking whatever it involves.

100% dir is probably the safest way there is to dive but it takes away from my freedom of choice and I cannot accept that. The team mentality in any endeavor is just not my idea of fun. It is not a question of right and wrong. I refuse to make that kind of distinction about the choices of others. I just don't want others making my decisions for me.

I hope all can accept this without offense or rankor because It is not meant as anti DIR or a negative comment about anyones choice to follow this diving style. It is simply my feelings in this discussion.

My GOD dude! ](*,) You've made it clear, over and over, what your feelings are.

If it isn't your "idea of fun," FINE... PLEASE go back to your kind of fun and leave the rest of everyone else to their kind of fun!! If you're interested, just ASK, and dive with someone who can tell you about it - there is a whole group of people here who are actively offering to do just that!

Food for thought:

I don't like taking pictures underwater, and clearly you do. I don't tell you how much I hate doing it or how much it isn't my cup of tea, and whether I think taking pictures while diving is right or wrong. But...YOUR OWN SIGNATURE on EVERY POST you write clearly says, "if you're not taking pictures, you're just wasting air." Am I really wasting air if I'm not taking pictures? What if "it's just not my idea of fun?!" What if I don't want people, like you, telling me that if I'm not taking pictures, I'm somehow wasting air?

People here like Laura, Lynne, Richard, and especially Doug are trying DESPERATELY to put this bullshit behind the diving community and lead a progressive shift away from the DIR/anti-DIR bull. Even if you're not interested in helping their efforts, please continue to do your own thing without hindering them.

The whole NWUE Buddy Group was created to offer a constructive, fun, positive outlet for those who are curious about that particular style of diving to try it out, meet some of the folks IN PERSON, and maybe even learn something. At the very least, people who come for the dive will enjoy themselves, and leave with a slightly better understanding of who these fellow divers are and what these fellow divers are about.

[airsix]

I love each and everyone of you equally! :occasion5:

Oh no!!!! He hates ALL of us!

[CaptnJack]

Offer's still open for this evening 7pm 3-tree North Meet, greet, dive, MX food strictly in that order

Maybe even the Bobsy twins will come

[ulisses]

I have been reading this post the last two days and I think that controversy and open minded discussions do good to society. Not only help individuals to make their own opinion but encourages the ignorants (and I count myself here) to learn what we don't know. I have to ask for your apologies in advance for two things: 1 is my bad English (it's my second language) and 2 My lack of knowledge in DIR. I'm basing my believes in what is available on the net and that's not always the "truth".

I have heard and read on the internet that at the very beginning (maybe 10-20+ years ago), the founders of DIR were not only kinda of segregating people who don't follow DIR concepts but they were promoting certain brands of equipment too. I have never find a confirmation about this, but this fact has caused a lot of the issue with the DIR/Anti DIR thing.

I'm very ignorant about DIR, and I think that most of the things are maybe a lack of knowledge and tolerance. I think all non DIR divers have something DIR on their equipment trim, I do. But I want other options and other matches also, I like the capability to choose, and hopefully still be capable of diving with a DIR group, if it's safe, why negate it?

I really encourage discussion, and opinion interchange if it's with respect and with a clear objective of finding a solution. If you are not part of the solution ... you are part of the problem. I would like to know more about the DIR and non DIR. To have two options to choose from. Not to embrace one or the another because for that is politics and religions and sports, to choose only one option out there and negate the others.

Hope this won't add to the controversy, and if it does, please educate me on the subject! Will be good if we can learn from this and not avoid the issue, confront it but with tolerance, respect and an objective: learn and have the data to choose what fits us better.

UUUUFFFFF ... too long ... thanks for the space!

Ulisses

[Tom Nic]

Well put Ulisses.

And a great way to learn about different philosophies / styles of diving is to dive with those people.

I appreciate the offers above to dive, as well as many others that surface on this board, and encourage you to take advantage of them.

Welcome to Northwest Dive Club!

[airsix]

Hi Ulisses,
I don't live in the Puget Sound area - I'm about 250 miles inland. It is so wonderful for me to have this online club. Any time I get a chance to come over for some diving there are willing friends waiting. I value those friendships and this club very much. Some of the people I have come to know and care about are DIR divers and some are not. I appreciate them all. Diving with my DIR friends I have never felt second-class. I am very grateful for their willingness to encourage my adoption of something they have found value in. Likewise I have many dear friends who are not DIR and they are careful, deliberate, safe divers too. I enjoy diving with all of these fun safe people. They are all my friends and I can not segregate them in my mind even if they sometimes segregate themselves.

My recommendation to you, Ulisses, is to go diving with a bunch of people here and draw your own conclusions as I have. Personally I have found that real DIR and Internet DIR don't match up 100%. The real life version suits my taste quite well. It also doesn't prevent me from enjoying diver friendships outside that circle.

-Ben

[CaptnJack]

Ulisses, we'll have another meet & dive next Tuesday if you'd like to join us.
Generally 7pm to accomodate work/driving/traffic.
I <think> the next one (August 12th) will be in Mukiteo.

We aren't going to rip into your gear/training or experience but will endeavor to answer any questions you might have. We have some loaner equipment for folks that might be looking for a new BC and considering a plate+wing. Or maybe can't quite splurge for a 5 to 7ft hose or canister light without trying one first. We don't sell anything, these would just be spares from our personal collections.