Good info for the DIR types

[Grateful Diver]

Dude ... baby keep ya up last night?

Doin' it right ... :occasion5:

Doin' it rong ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Simple really, Your way is right and my way is wrong. It is not DIR I object to it is that way of thinking whatever it involves.

100% dir is probably the safest way there is to dive but it takes away from my freedom of choice and I cannot accept that. The team mentality in any endeavor is just not my idea of fun. It is not a question of right and wrong. I refuse to make that kind of distinction about the choices of others. I just don't want others making my decisions for me.

I hope all can accept this without offense or rankor because It is not meant as anti DIR or a negative comment about anyones choice to follow this diving style. It is simply my feelings in this discussion.

My GOD dude! ](*,) You've made it clear, over and over, what your feelings are.

If it isn't your "idea of fun," FINE... PLEASE go back to your kind of fun and leave the rest of everyone else to their kind of fun!! If you're interested, just ASK, and dive with someone who can tell you about it - there is a whole group of people here who are actively offering to do just that!

Food for thought:

I don't like taking pictures underwater, and clearly you do. I don't tell you how much I hate doing it or how much it isn't my cup of tea, and whether I think taking pictures while diving is right or wrong. But...YOUR OWN SIGNATURE on EVERY POST you write clearly says, "if you're not taking pictures, you're just wasting air." Am I really wasting air if I'm not taking pictures? What if "it's just not my idea of fun?!" What if I don't want people, like you, telling me that if I'm not taking pictures, I'm somehow wasting air?

People here like Laura, Lynne, Richard, and especially Doug are trying DESPERATELY to put this bullshit behind the diving community and lead a progressive shift away from the DIR/anti-DIR bull. Even if you're not interested in helping their efforts, please continue to do your own thing without hindering them.

The whole NWUE Buddy Group was created to offer a constructive, fun, positive outlet for those who are curious about that particular style of diving to try it out, meet some of the folks IN PERSON, and maybe even learn something. At the very least, people who come for the dive will enjoy themselves, and leave with a slightly better understanding of who these fellow divers are and what these fellow divers are about.

[Sounder]

Dude ... baby keep ya up last night?

Doin' it right ... :occasion5:

Doin' it rong ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Is it that easy to see? I need to dive into more than a poopie diaper.

[airsix]

Is it that easy to see? I need to dive into more than a poopie diaper.

Hang in there man, it gets better. The first thing I thought when I read your post was "3 hours sleep last night".
Don't worry about the hallucinations and memory loss. It's not permanent.

-Ben

[ulisses]

Ulisses, we'll have another meet & dive next Tuesday if you'd like to join us.
Generally 7pm to accomodate work/driving/traffic.
I <think> the next one (August 12th) will be in Mukiteo.

We aren't going to rip into your gear/training or experience but will endeavor to answer any questions you might have. We have some loaner equipment for folks that might be looking for a new BC and considering a plate+wing. Or maybe can't quite splurge for a 5 to 7ft hose or canister light without trying one first. We don't sell anything, these would just be spares from our personal collections.

Thanks a lot for the invite. I couldn't make it to this one but I don't have twins yet, I do have the regulators and working the long hose plus some items I'm lacking there. I have a plate+wing though. So, let me finish my setup and will join you guys for sure!

Ulisses

[CaptnJack]

Ulisses, we'll have another meet & dive next Tuesday if you'd like to join us.
Generally 7pm to accomodate work/driving/traffic.
I <think> the next one (August 12th) will be in Mukiteo.

We aren't going to rip into your gear/training or experience but will endeavor to answer any questions you might have. We have some loaner equipment for folks that might be looking for a new BC and considering a plate+wing. Or maybe can't quite splurge for a 5 to 7ft hose or canister light without trying one first. We don't sell anything, these would just be spares from our personal collections.

Thanks a lot for the invite. I couldn't make it to this one but I don't have twins yet, I do have the regulators and working the long hose plus some items I'm lacking there. I have a plate+wing though. So, let me finish my setup and will join you guys for sure!

Ulisses

You definately don't need doubles (twins). A single tank is fine for anything we are doing at these events. You don't even need a long hose, jacket BCs, etc. ect. - any setup with decent exposure protection in working condition is fine. (Anyone) just come out, meet some new folks and have a good time during and afterwards.

[Grateful Diver]

When it comes to DIR, I’m kinda stuck on the fence. Almost from the beginning I’ve been turned off by the “dissing” … but that only comes from a small minority of people. And to be honest, since I tend to “look” like a DIR dude, I’ve gotten plenty of attitude from folks looking at it from the other direction too. I think we all need to get past that.

To answer Peter’s question about “what’s not to like” … I don’t really think that’s the right question. Perhaps a more productive one would be “why isn’t it right for me?”

Those who enjoy diving solo have a valid reason.
Those who dive a rebreather have a valid reason.

Those are pretty absolute … and it takes nothing away from the people who make those choices.

Others are more subjective. I like the emphasis on skills … especially for how we dive here in the PNW … cold water, low vis, no DM’s to lead you around. DIR training teaches you not just what to do, but how to do it and why you’d want to. It emphasizes things that I think are valuable to anyone diving here. And even though I don’t teach DIR in my own classes, it gave me a conceptual model for how to teach that my students benefit from greatly.

But DIR training is certainly not for everyone. I’m not a person who learns well following the standard DIR training method of pushing you until you break. Some people learn well that way. Others learn better by taking it in smaller chunks … and then by just going out and doing it. I’m one of those. I got a lot out of the classes and workshops I took during my association with GUE … but if I’m honest with myself about it, I’d have learned those things anyway (because I WANTED to), and probably would’ve done it more effectively using an instructor who wasn’t pushing me quite so hard, one who gave me ample time to actually absorb what I was trying to learn, and made themselves more available to just go diving. That aspect of the training proved to be not so enjoyable … and if I’m not enjoying any aspect of diving, I’m doing it for the wrong reasons.

The computer thing doesn’t bother me, but for most recreational divers I think it’s a complete non-issue. Someone using a very conservative computer like a Suunto can easily dive compatibly with someone using a more aggressive computer like an Aeris. That compatibility breaks down once you reach the tech level … as I found out when I did my first post-class tech dive with Ursa and Richard … but most divers aren’t going tech, even if they’re interested in other aspects of what DIR has to offer. So in that respect, I think the “rules” are really applicable to a level that depends on what your diving goals happen to be.

On the other hand, there are certain fundamental skills that all divers should develop … buoyancy control, control of your position in the water (trim), effective propulsion (none of us really enjoy following someone’s silt trail), good buddy skills (otherwise, why dive with a buddy?), effective navigation skills (because we usually can’t see very far), and good dive planning skills. DIR training teaches most, but not all, of those very effectively. But so do many other programs. And ultimately, it’s not the program that will determine your proficiency level … it’s how willing you are to put time and effort into learning. Any decent instructor can point you in the right direction … the rest is really up to you.

I guess that’s really where I’m going with all of this … it’s up to each of us to decide what’s right for ourselves. DIR offers some interesting perspectives … and I think most folks could learn something valuable by looking at those perspectives. But in order to benefit from it, we’ve really GOT to get past the name, past the personalities, and past the inferences (what we hear often has more to do with our own perspectives than those of the person saying them anyway).

The NWUE is offering something I think is worthwhile … and even if you decide that DIR is not for you, getting exposure to the people who dive that way and seeing firsthand what they do and why is valuable. I’d encourage any new diver, especially, to give it a try. It might change your perspective … and you might be pleasantly surprised to find that we’re a community after all … and that it’s not some cult looking for recruits. It’s just a bunch of people trying to be helpful and friendly.

… Bob (Grateful Diver)

[dsteding]

Nice post Bob,

For what it is worth, I don't have anything at all against rebreathers or solo divers (typically the two types that seem to rail against DIR the hardest). I don't choose to dive that way because of my risk tolerance, but I'm certainly not going to yell "you're gonna die" across the parking lot at Cove 2 at such types.

I guess I just want that kind of live and let live in return, rather then outright hostility towards DIR. Probably the best we can do in terms of those that have decided to hate the system, but I think in a respectful community it is the minimum we should expect.

As for NWUE, you are right, we are trying to at least--through the buddy group--give people an opportunity to see what this is all about. Then, hopefully, people can make up their own minds, which is really what is at the core of DIR, being a thinking diver.

-Doug

[LCF]

There are lots of good divers who aren't remotely DIR, but they'll have some things in common with us, I think: They'll have thought about the gear they use and how they arrange it, and they'll be pretty streamlined. They'll be efficient about what they take down with them and how they stow it. They'll have good buoyancy control and the ability not to silt out a dive site. They'll have good awareness of their gas consumption, and the ability to plan a dive and compare it with the available gas to see if it is feasible. When they dive as a buddy, they'll have good buddy awareness and clear, unambiguous communication. They'll have a good sense of where they are in the water, whether that's with respect to depth and time, or with respect to navigation.

I think most people would agree that those are characteristics of a good diver, no matter what style of diving they do.

What DIR adds to the mix is centered around the commitment to diving as a team. Because we're a team, it makes sense to standardize equipment and gases and the approach to decompression (whether that's for tech dives or recreational ones). As a team, we practice safety procedures in the serious hope that, if they are ever needed, they will be ready and smooth. I am happily willing to "give up" a lot of personal preference in my gear and my way of diving, in order to reap the benefits of a smoothly-functioning team. This is particularly true when I travel, which I do a lot of.

We like the way we dive (that's why we dive that way!) but we're also happy to share anything we know that will make somebody else's diving a little smoother, safer, or more fun. That's why the NWUE buddy list exists. No "Ve have VAYS of making you frog-kick!" Just a group of people who are offering to share, and to help.

[cardiver]

Actually, other than adopting the long hose into my gear 5 years ago, the frog kick is the one other "dir" thing that I want to learn.

[Dusty2]

I whole heartedly agree with what Lynn just said and Bob too. Except that I don't hate DIR and I'm really sorry you feel that I do.

I heartily support your efforts to make the dive community a safer place and think that Capt Jack, Laura and all the rest of you are doing a service to the dive community that I have no desire to impede in any way.

I am actually adopting parts of your gear configuration as I go along and have always practiced all the things just mentioned. I have nearly 500 dives with dozens of different buddies and no serious incidents. I dive with an 80 year old man (my father) regularly and make it my task to assure he enjoys his dives and gets back safely. I became a master diver because I wanted the extra training and skills. I will always promote safe diving practices and do my best to point out unsafe acts or gear to those that don't.

I plan to dive with some of you as soon as I can. Sorry about the signature offending. It has been changed

[Tom Nic]

Great comments everyone!

Dude ... baby keep ya up last night?

Doin' it right ... :occasion5:

Doin' it rong ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Is it that easy to see? I need to dive into more than a poopie diaper.

And I'm glad it was Bob that pointed that out and not your long lost mid-week divin' buddy.

And now the REAL question - Inquiring minds want to know - Have you thrown an OOA signal at your beloved wife while doing your husbandly dooties of changing the poopie diapers? Hmmm??? I can SO picture that scenario in the Sounder household!

[Grateful Diver]

Great comments everyone!

Dude ... baby keep ya up last night?

Doin' it right ... :occasion5:

Doin' it rong ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Is it that easy to see? I need to dive into more than a poopie diaper.

And I'm glad it was Bob that pointed that out and not your long lost mid-week divin' buddy.

And now the REAL question - Inquiring minds want to know - Have you thrown an OOA signal at your beloved wife while doing your husbandly dooties of changing the poopie diapers? Hmmm??? I can SO picture that scenario in the Sounder household!

Dunno about the OOA, but I can totally envision breathing off a reg with a mask over your nose whilst doin' diaper duty ...

... dry gloves probably wouldn't suck either ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Tom Nic]

[Sounder]

So far I haven't broken out the long hose for a change... I hear that comes with solid food. Thought about a mask, once, when he "made like a fire hose." Bob, your beautiful framed picture of the clown fish narrowly escaped the flow.

I plan to dive with some of you as soon as I can. Sorry about the signature offending. It has been changed

Not offended, and wasn't requesting a change - just using it as an example.

[Pez7378]

If we all dove Naked, there wouldn't be this division among us! Well, except for those with the long hose, and those without........


















Not sure where that came from. Just trying to add a little levity to the discussion I guess............

[cardiver]

Trust me, Pez.......NO ONE would be diving in our cold water with a long hose!

[Penopolypants]

I don't think I want to be a member of that club

Me either!

[spatman]

Trust me, Pez.......NO ONE would be diving in our cold water with a long hose!

thanks, ron. i needed a good laugh.

[Grateful Diver]

So far I haven't broken out the long hose for a change... I hear that comes with solid food. Thought about a mask, once, when he "made like a fire hose." Bob, your beautiful framed picture of the clown fish narrowly escaped the flow.

Considering that the little bastards bit me, I wouldn't have minded in the least ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Dusty2]

Not offended, and wasn't requesting a change - just using it as an example.

Ah well it was due for a change anyway. Hope those little tikes let you get some sleep soon.

PEACE GUYS, There is room for all in the sound and it's to good to waste.

[Sounder]

So far I haven't broken out the long hose for a change... I hear that comes with solid food. Thought about a mask, once, when he "made like a fire hose." Bob, your beautiful framed picture of the clown fish narrowly escaped the flow.

Considering that the little bastards bit me, I wouldn't have minded in the least ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

FWIW - Erica's best friend's mother came to visit and meet the little one today (she's a neat lady... and she brought lunch! ). When we showed her the nursery she asked what studio we purchased those pictures from and who the photographer was - appeared to her to be the of the same caliber of things she's "seen in galleries." When Erica told her the background on who all the photogs were and where they were taken, she was astonished and said "they all look like they could have come from the pages of Nat Geo."

Here's a nugget of wisdom I've learned... if you suck at taking pictures, but want to enjoy great photography, dive with great photographers and find stuff for them shoot.

[Dusty2]

Here's a nugget of wisdom I've learned... if you suck at taking pictures, but want to enjoy great photography, dive with great photographers and find stuff for them shoot.

Works every time, especially if you tell them how great there pictures are. :occasion5:

[Peter Guy]

Lynne wrote

There are lots of good divers who aren't remotely DIR, but they'll have some things in common with us, I think: They'll have thought about the gear they use and how they arrange it, and they'll be pretty streamlined. They'll be efficient about what they take down with them and how they stow it. They'll have good buoyancy control and the ability not to silt out a dive site. They'll have good awareness of their gas consumption, and the ability to plan a dive and compare it with the available gas to see if it is feasible. When they dive as a buddy, they'll have good buddy awareness and clear, unambiguous communication. They'll have a good sense of where they are in the water, whether that's with respect to depth and time, or with respect to navigation.

After having just got off the phone with her and having a "frank and open discussion" of the topic, I'd like to respond. Pray tell, how can someone be "[not] remotely DIR" but still be the type of diver she describes? Let's see: gear nicely put together; good skills underwater; good buddy awareness -- all this and they "aren't remotely DIR?"

Dear wife, did you really mean to write that someone who meets those criteria is not "remotely" diving like someone you believe to be "DIR?" Or is it that you can't dive "like" a "DIR Diver" -- that you must BE a "DIR Diver"?

Bob, I thought your post was a great response to mine -- thank you. I had considered putting solo and rebreather divers in the category of someone who is "outside" of the DIR perspective.

I still like what I was taught 40 years ago.

[Joshua Smith]

Hey, everyone? This just might be the first "DIR/non-DIR" thread that resolved peacefully, on a friendly note, ever. Thank you.

This site is important to me- I was, like, the 36th person to join this board- I had 12 dives under my belt, an AOW card from PADI, and I knew just about nothing, and had no dive buddies. 2 1/2 years later, I'm diving a Megalodon CCR, full Trimix, and I have made a bunch of lifelong friends- the kind I literally trust with my life. I know that this is a relatively small, local (regional, really) website, but it has been very important to me, since I started diving. I know that some of you feel the same way, and have had similar experiences here.
We who run this board wish for all of the members to remember that the most important member is the brand-new diver. The next priority is probably the established diver looking to take the next step in their diving career. We should all focus on being supportive towards that person; and we seem to have a new one once a week. It's a slippery slope, but even if you're sure that the way YOU dive is the only way to go, please refrain from being too aggressive with the well intentioned suggestions. I don't want to be too specific about this request, but- when a newly minted TDI tech diver asks for advice on which wing to get for her doubles, suggesting that she should take DIR-Fundamentals might be seen as going a little too far, for example. Certain people gravitate towards the UTD/DIR/GUE philosophy, and that's just fine. It is a perfectly valid way to dive, and I have no problem with those who wish to do so. A few of the local UTD/DIR types have, on occasion, taken great exception to my diving, and the way I have done it, but I am perfectly willing to forget about that, and let bygones be bygones. To each, their own.
Anyway, I'm rambling, now. But- thanks for playing nice, everyone.

[Joshua Smith]

Lynne wrote

There are lots of good divers who aren't remotely DIR, but they'll have some things in common with us, I think: They'll have thought about the gear they use and how they arrange it, and they'll be pretty streamlined. They'll be efficient about what they take down with them and how they stow it. They'll have good buoyancy control and the ability not to silt out a dive site. They'll have good awareness of their gas consumption, and the ability to plan a dive and compare it with the available gas to see if it is feasible. When they dive as a buddy, they'll have good buddy awareness and clear, unambiguous communication. They'll have a good sense of where they are in the water, whether that's with respect to depth and time, or with respect to navigation.

After having just got off the phone with her and having a "frank and open discussion" of the topic, I'd like to respond. Pray tell, how can someone be "[not] remotely DIR" but still be the type of diver she describes? Let's see: gear nicely put together; good skills underwater; good buddy awareness -- all this and they "aren't remotely DIR?"

Dear wife, did you really mean to write that someone who meets those criteria is not "remotely" diving like someone you believe to be "DIR?" Or is it that you can't dive "like" a "DIR Diver" -- that you must BE a "DIR Diver"?

Bob, I thought your post was a great response to mine -- thank you. I had considered putting solo and rebreather divers in the category of someone who is "outside" of the DIR perspective.

I still like what I was taught 40 years ago.

Ooops- I spoke too soon. Buckle up, and put on your flame-retard[ant] suits, kids! I'll be back online tomorrow with fire extinguisher and delete button, ready to go!