Good info for the DIR types

[Dusty2]

I came across this info on Scuba toys.com and thought it was good info on DIR

http://www.scubatoys.com/store/joelarry/dir.asp

[dwashbur]

Good stuff. Anybody who does it different is DIR: "Doing It Rong"

[airsix]

STOP!

OK, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second.

Right up front I'm going to make something very clear. I don't play favorites. Some of my most respected friends are outspoken DIR detractors. Some of my most respected friends are also dyed-in-the-wool hard-core DIR. Anything I write should not be taken by either camp as me taking sides or attacking either 'camp'. I WILL NOT give up one group of friends for the other. You're all stuck with me! :occasion5: <-- me on the right with non-alcoholic beverage

Here is my question: For the past 4 years I have been tugged from both directions. DIR. Not DIR. And in all the criticisms of DIR there is something conspicuously missing - specifics. Nobody has yet to explain to me what is wrong TECHNICALLY with DIR. Is there something wrong with the equipment? The pre-dive planning standards? Communication protocols? Deco procedures? Or is attitude the only thing to take issue with?

This is not a flame. Not a troll post. Not bait. I just want to hear, is there legitimate criticism of standards and procedures, or is the criticism limited to the social issues (which I do recognize as being real, and which are being remedied by some and perpetuated by others).

-Ben

[Pez7378]

I agree with you Ben. But I also think that as old as it is, that is one of the funniest DIR write ups I've read! I appreciate the humor, and I hope that it wasn't meant, nor is it taken as a "Slam" on that way of diving.

:occasion5: That's me on the left drinking something refreshing!

[Dusty2]

NO slam intended and any sane person would realize there is nothing wrong or faulty with DIR teachings or equipment. However some do take it to extremes. It is not for everyone and as long as you can accept that and the fact that we can still be safe divers and not be dir then all is good.

Minimising risks is always good but this is recreation and we are all ultimatly responsible for our own safety and well being.

[airsix]

Hi Pez & Dusty,
I agree that it is funny. I laughed. Quite a bit. Dusty, I hope you didn't feel like my post was antagonistic. I don't mean it to be. There was a bit of a row last time this was posted and I was trying to create a distraction before anybody got their hackles up. (For the record I don't know what a hackle is, but I hear that getting them up is trouble).

-Ben

[dwashbur]

Hi Pez & Dusty,
I agree that it is funny. I laughed. Quite a bit. Dusty, I hope you didn't feel like my post was antagonistic. I don't mean it to be. There was a bit of a row last time this was posted and I was trying to create a distraction before anybody got their hackles up. (For the record I don't know what a hackle is, but I hear that getting them up is trouble).

-Ben

As I recall, "hackles" are the hairs on the back of a dog's neck that stand up when he's angry and getting ready to attack.

Yours,
Sir Nitpick

Sorry, that was my alter ego who sometimes speaks without permission. Anyway, I don't know that much about DIR, my biggest problem is with the name and the attitude it reflects. That said, my post was just one more chance for me to play goofy games with words, which is probably my second favorite activity (no, diving is not the first )

[Dusty2]

Dusty, I hope you didn't feel like my post was antagonistic. I don't mean it to be. There was a bit of a row last time this was posted and I was trying to create a distraction before anybody got their hackles up. (For the record I don't know what a hackle is, but I hear that getting them up is trouble).

-Ben

Yes gettin your hackels up is bad. For the record hackles are the feathers on a rosters neck which he flufs up when ready to fight to make himself look as big as possible.

I just read the DIR bible http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/text/HOGARTH3.TXT and I realize I am a stroke and always will be. It is way to regimented and inflexible for me. Risk management for me is, No mixed gas, no caves, no depths over 130 fsw and probably no wreck penitration either and never take chances. Hogarths rules are very important for those that do these things. They are well thought out and tried and true but they were really ment for high risk diving where you are always at risk and don't have any margin for error.

[ljjames]

The biggest problem with the whole DIR / non-DIR issue is the INTERNET!!!!!! The second biggest 'problem' was GI3 selecting an acronym that implies that everyone else was is doing it incorrectly. Newsflash! time to get past that! Both DIR and non-DIR's alike.

Get off the boards and come DIVE (with us)!

[CaptnJack]

I just read the DIR bible http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/text/HOGARTH3.TXT and I realize I am a stroke and always will be. It is way to regimented and inflexible for me. Risk management for me is, No mixed gas, no caves, no depths over 130 fsw and probably no wreck penitration either and never take chances. Hogarths rules are very important for those that do these things. They are well thought out and tried and true but they were really ment for high risk diving where you are always at risk and don't have any margin for error.

Bible??
I don't really want to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy of your assessments here. If you are curious, you are welcome to join a bunch of us on Tuesdays. A mix of GUE, Naui-tech and other not formally "DIR" trained folks who must enjoy our company

Tomorrow is at 3-Tree. http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php ... 224#p60224

Ummm yeah what Laura said...

[Dusty2]

Wish I could make it tomarrow. But my suit won't be back from bare for at least another week. Guess that's why I'm on the internet too much

I wasn't tryin to get any one riled up. Just thought that article was kinda cute. Didn't realize it had been posted before and people would get all flustered.

I am going to try to make the redondo get together though and I promise I won't mention DIR.

Your right though Laura they did name it rather provocativly but people shouldn't be so sensitive on either side

I want to go diving! I'm getting nitrogen depravation!

[dsteding]

I'll start by acknowledging the humor of the above post. It is sorta funny.

But I do have a rant brewing here:

You know, the more I see this stuff, the more I am convinced that the problem with "DIR" these days isn't the supposed attitude of team divers themselves, but the attitude of people that just won't give up the past, namely those that have a "problem" with DIR because of what the name represents or what they've read on the internet.

I find it amusing that so many people are so anti-DIR or whatever when they don't know what it is all about, nor do they care to find out. There are so many people like that on this board in particular. I hate to say it, but it is that sort of ignorance and lack of education about the system that keeps the rifts we have in our dive community active.

While I think some of the blame may rest with local DIR attitudes from 10 years ago (and the corresponding internet attitude of 10 years ago) the reality is that the team diving people have moved well beyond that attitude, and those of us that are aware of it are quite up front about past problems and often even apologetic for the past.

I'm sick of being that way. I'm sick of apologizing for DIR/unified team diving. I shouldn't have to.

If you hate DIR, fine, just do it in a way that is at least informed and is after you've taken at least a cursory look at the system.

There are tons of us out here that are willing to chat and are quite receptive towards newer divers, those of you that are without a clue about DIR but maintain a negative attitude about it anyways are just closing off part of the dive community to others based on your own ignorance.

To which I say, get over yourselves, as a member of the new generation of team divers, I'm sick of dealing with that BS.

:occasion5:

[Pez7378]

HOLY CRAP Doug, You're Hackles make you look HUGE!

[Dusty2]

Sorry but that kind of BS is totally uncalled for. As an adult I will not respond to all the insults and innuendo contained in that post.

Time to ask the moderator to delete this thread!

[dsteding]

Sorry but that kind of BS is totally uncalled for. As an adult I will not respond to all the insults and innuendo contained in that post.

Time to ask the moderator to delete this thread!

No, not aimed at you, and my apologies if you saw it that way, more of a general statement to the world that this thread gave me an opportunity to get off my chest.

Seriously, not anything personal and not anything directed at you. But, I don't think this is worthy of deleting entirely, it is time for us to face this anti-DIR issue straight on, it is just too poisonous for the community as a whole.

[dsteding]

HOLY CRAP Doug, You're Hackles make you look HUGE!

Thanks Chris, I love me some hackles.

Seriously, I posted that above relying on my (hopefully) reputation as being rather well-reasoned and tolerant of all types of divers. Those that know me know I care about the community and really love diving, sharing diving with others, and generally think this is a damn fine place to be a diver.

That being said, as a team diver, I find myself wasting way too much bandwidth dealing with the DIR controversy. We need to get over ourselves. All of us. If you are interested in how I dive, I'm happy to share it with you. Let's go dive. If not, that is cool, just don't go hating what you don't understand.

[Joshua Smith]

The biggest problem with the whole DIR / non-DIR issue is the INTERNET!!!!!!

I agree, completely.

The DIR system works just fine, for the people that embrace it, and we have never tried to suppress it- with the occassional exception of things like new divers posting simple questions and getting 5 "Unified Team" responses suggesting that they run right out and sign up for a Fundamentals class. Stuff like that- I won't debate specifics, at all. We just make it our policy to allow split-fin/neon snorkel/ console wearing divers to make up their own mind about things, and it's important for new divers to know that there are different ways of doing things. Like most people, I had no idea there were multiple training agencies when I signed up for OW.

And Doug, if you're tired of defending DIR, I'm at least as tired as you are- of stomping out pro/ anti DIR brush fires.

I've seen that same "we all wear black 501s and carry a backup beer around our necks in case of an OOB......" thing posted on this board at least 5 times, now. It was pretty funny the first time I read it, but that was a few years ago. Maybe we should sticky it somewhere, so people stop re-discovering it? Nah, nevermind. I don't have any easy answers for relieving this tension, so I'm just gonna ask you all to be polite, especially about the DIR/ anti DIR thing.

[CaptnJack]

Like I said above. Anyone is welcome on Tuesday's. We are rotating around the Seattle metro area. We have instructors attending, along with loaner gear, and the potential to develop mentoring relationships with deco+cave divers using this approach.

If you are looking to be confrontational, just want to argue, etc. I suggest sticking to the internet. The public and private areas of this board are not the least bit DIR friendly and we are specifically extending an olive branch here. That's all.

[Joshua Smith]

Sorry but that kind of BS is totally uncalled for. As an adult I will not respond to all the insults and innuendo contained in that post.

Time to ask the moderator to delete this thread!

I see nothing "deletion worthy" in this thread. Don't get wrapped around the axle.

[dsteding]

And Doug, if you're tired of defending DIR, I'm at least as tired as you are- of stomping out pro/ anti DIR brush fires.

I've seen that same "we all wear black 501s and carry a backup beer around our necks in case of an OOB......" thing posted on this board at least 5 times, now. It was pretty funny the first time I read it, but that was a few years ago. Maybe we should sticky it somewhere, so people stop re-discovering it? Nah, nevermind. I don't have any easy answers for relieving this tension, so I'm just gonna ask you all to be polite, especially about the DIR/ anti DIR thing.

Understood. For what it is worth, Josh, you do a good job of keeping this board civil and I try to respect that. I really didn't see that post as insults and innuendo, I'm calling it as I see it, and trying to be respectful, hence my now repeated apologies to the OP that it was seen that way.

That being said, it is a worthy topic if we can keep it civil, and one that needs to be addressed so we can put it to bed.

[scottsax]

The public and private areas of this board are not the least bit DIR friendly

Really? I haven't found that to be the case, but then I haven't been around long enough to have seen the "bad old days" of trolling and flame wars. My OW instructor was very negative about UTD/DIR, but I realized shortly after the class that he was an idiot.

we are specifically extending an olive branch here

I'm so glad you are, and as soon as I get my suit back, I'm coming out to one of the Tuesday Tweeks!

Cheers!
:occasion5:

[Joshua Smith]

That being said, it is a worthy topic if we can keep it civil, and one that needs to be addressed so we can put it to bed.

I'm pretty convinced that that will never happen, at least on the internet.

Look, here's how I feel about it: DIR is a perfectly valid training system, with an admirable safety record. Nobody can say it doesn't work, because, obviously, it does. It does not, however, work for me. (And while I don't claim to know everything about it, I bet I know a lot more about it than you think I do!) NWDC is NOT unfriendly to DIR, as a few have claimed- we simply want newer divers to know that they have other choices- and there have been a few instances where that wasn't happening. You guys wanna promote your weekly dives here? Go right ahead- it's the very best way I can think of for new divers to see if they want what UTD has to offer.

[CaptnJack]

Well as DSteding and Nailer said... the jokes were funny, once or twice, 3 or more years ago. Seems alot like groundhog day though...

Just come out and dive with us, we are generally happy beer drinkin' people and would prefer to explain any questions you have in person vs. on the internet. "Hi, we're from the DIR police and we're hear to help" lol

Tomorrow (5th) I imagine we'll go for dinner at the MX place up on the top of the hill afterwards.

[LCF]

Wow -- How'd this turn so serious?

I've seen that DIR beer thing before, and I thought it was rather clever. Bob has a parody of "Paint it Black" about DIR that I think is funny and clever, too, and somewhere there's a story of the creation of the world by GI3 which is pretty funny, too. There's a lot of ammunition for parodies and humor in a bunch of divers in black drysuits and identical gear, chanting through their GUE EDGE checklists before diving at Edmonds. I know, 'cuz I'm one of them.

It's a big ocean (even a big Sound) and there's plenty of room in it for people to dive any number of ways. I like my way, and I'm enthusiastic about sharing information about what I do and why I like it with anybody who wants to talk to me about it. I also dive with people who don't dive this way (although admittedly not that often) and I think if you ask any of them, they'll tell you they don't hear a word from me about how they dive, unless they ask me.

And we can all get along, and we can even poke fun at one another (as this board is given to doing just about ALL THE TIME) without rancor, I think. Poke fun at me; I don't mind. Just make it clever :-)

[Dusty2]

Sorry guys but then again how many times do I have to say that? I am not in any way anti DIR. If thats your thing then go for it and enjoy! I totally agree with parts of it and actually have changed some of my gear because I liked some of the ideas. I just find I am not interested in pursuing it myself.

I simply posted something that I thought was interesting and kind of funny while I was out on the Internet trying honestly to find more info on DIR gear and the proper way to set it up. Then all hell broke loose.

I thought this was a friendly place to talk diving but I guess I'll have to add DIR to my do not discuss list along with religion and politics. It's tough being politically correct in these new modern times.